Op. 25 no. 6 measure 7?

[gapoc459]

Some recordings play an A natural here, others play A sharp as the top note. My Paderewski edition leaves it as A sharp; and the note at the end says that the original edition included A sharp and that the late Breitkopf & Hartel and Mikuli editions had an A natural instead. Based on this, it would seem that Chopin's intent was A sharp, but my gut feeling leaves me hesitant to accept that just yet (perhaps because the recordings I've heard by far the most, Ohlsson and Pollini, play A natural). I like the sound of both. COMPLETELY different effects. What do you guys think?

Also, any general advice on strengthening the weak 4 and 5 fingers (in both hands, but especially the right, for this piece)? This seems like one of those pieces that pushes one's physiological boundaries, I'm wondering what I can do to maximize facility.

[awesom_o]

The A natural sounds more conservative. The A# sounds more unexpected.

To develop facility with this Etude I recommend you practice it slowly, without pedal, paying close attention to maintaining a beautiful legato tone throughout.

[faulty_damper]

According to the note in the Wiener Urtext edition:
"bar 7-8: Mikuli and many other editors added a natural sign before the second note a-sharp; however all sources, including Dubois and the Fontana edition have here an a-sharp.  There is a faint possibility that Chopin forgot here to write a natural sign which he wrote in bar 9, though, cf. Etude op.25/8, bar 10."

I would assume they added the natural as way of analogy to the first measures as it sounds more expectedly proper; but the a-sharp has much more tension and is analogous to mm 23-24, 39-40, 49-50, and 53-54.  I'm pretty certain Chopin meant the a-sharp.

As for technique: I just starting reading this study yesterday, and the technique does not appear to be one of strengthening the 4-5 fingers (or any finger), but rather of using the entire playing apparatus to minimize finger movement.  It feels strange having to keep my hand in such a closed position for so long as no piece I've ever played has requires such a thing.

[faulty_damper]

Starting on the very first bar, the alignment for 1/4 is different than 2/5.  Therefore, the slant of the hand should be different as well as the angle of the wrist.  If you hold the hand and wrist still, you force only the fingers to move.  This is not the most efficient way to play these thirds.

Also, since the hand is so closed throughout these passages, I've begun doing exercises to condition the inner hand muscles, the ones that allow you to make gang signs.  I touch the tips of the 2/4 together, as well as the 3/5.  This is so that it will feel more comfortable to keep my hand so closed.

As well, I do not press directly down with the fingers, but instead, use the pinching motion (e.g. pinching 1/4 together) to help depress the keys.  This is much more efficient but is a very small movement.

[faulty_damper]

This is Day 3 since practicing this study and I have made great strides.  I have not had any muscle tension, except when doing it the wrong way.  The speed has increased significantly, but it  appears due in large part to the coordination and muscular activation and suppression of the playing and non-playing fingers.  I must consciously activate the fingers though I anticipate that in a couple more days' practice, this will become automatic.

[gapoc459]

It seems that when I play fast, my success depends entirely on how relaxed my fingers are and what I had just played previously. I think I am playing with too much tension...

Is there any conscious way to improve coordination between the respective fingers in this etude? Or is slow practice all I can do? What I try to do is practice slowly making sure that there is no tension anywhere in my arm.

[faulty_damper]

I don't use slow practice unless it's to figure out and learn the optimum angle of the wrist and slant of the hand.  Remember that coordination is the result of slower practice.  Your aim is to learn the optimum position of your body, which it doesn't seem like you are doing by the tension.

[faulty_damper]

Note bena: Slow practice finger legato is not how this piece is actually played at speed.  Exempli gratia: the chromatic ascending thirds, mm 5-6, where certain fingers must be released immediately upon striking the keys, id est:

a) 5 in 5-1, preparation for 3-2
b) 2 in 4-2, preparation for the 1

There are many other examples.

[j_menz]

Note bena:

Nota bene: Nota bene. 

[awesom_o]

Note bena: Slow practice finger legato is not how this piece is actually played at speed. 

Didn't you just say you only started reading through the piece several days ago?

 

[faulty_damper]

Didn't you just say you only started reading through the piece several days ago?

 

Ja, what's your point?

[nyiregyhazi]

Note bena: Slow practice finger legato is not how this piece is actually played at speed.  Exempli gratia: the chromatic ascending thirds, mm 5-6, where certain fingers must be released immediately upon striking the keys, id est:

a) 5 in 5-1, preparation for 3-2
b) 2 in 4-2, preparation for the 1

There are many other examples.

? What? Why? I play these fully legato. What is this "must" nonsense? In chromatic thirds, the sliding 2nd (which I believe is Chopin's fingering) is tailor made to keep full legato in all voices at all times. There are places where only one note can join, particularly the g sharp minor and a major runs. Chromatic thirds can be entirely legato however and really ought to be.

[awesom_o]

Ja, what's your point?

Maybe you should wait until you've had a few successful performances of this one before you start giving advice to people online about how they should play it! 

[faulty_damper]

? What? Why? I play these fully legato. What is this "must" nonsense? In chromatic thirds, the sliding 2nd (which I believe is Chopin's fingering) is tailor made to keep full legato in all voices at all times. There are places where only one note can join, particularly the g sharp minor and a major runs. Chromatic thirds can be entirely legato however and really ought to be.

What you're saying is impossible at full tempo.  There is no finger legato as there can simply be no overlap of the depressed keys.

Maybe you should wait until you've had a few successful performances of this one before you start giving advice to people online about how they should play it! 

I'm providing what I'm learning as I learn it.

[awesom_o]

What you're saying is impossible at full tempo.  There is no finger legato as there can simply be no overlap of the depressed keys.

I'm providing what I'm learning as I learn it.

Did you ever hear the story about Rachmaninoff practicing this piece?

[cabbynum]

Did you ever hear the story about Rachmaninoff practicing this piece?

I would give both of my arms and one both of my feet to have a week with Rachmaninoff and no language barrier.

[m1469]

I would give both of my arms and one both of my feet to have a week with Rachmaninoff and no language barrier.

Maybe you should make a wish in the wishing well?

[j_menz]

I would give both of my arms and one both of my feet to have a week with Rachmaninoff and no language barrier.

I have a feeling anything useful he may have to tell you would later require them back. 

[faulty_damper]

I'm going to need clarification on the indicated tempo of a half note = 69.  Except for the opening bars, it sounds way too fast to maintain the entire piece at this tempo, particularly making the left hand part sound rushed when it carries a melodic line in the middle of the piece.  Surely, Chopin didn't mean a minim = 69 throughout.

[m1469]

Surely, Chopin didn't mean a minim = 69 throughout.

Ask Marik  .

[j_menz]

I'm going to need clarification on the indicated tempo of a half note = 69.  Except for the opening bars, it sounds way too fast to maintain the entire piece at this tempo, particularly making the left hand part sound rushed when it carries a melodic line in the middle of the piece.  Surely, Chopin didn't mean a minim = 69 throughout.

At 63 bars, two minims per bar, 1/69 minutes per minim, that would give a total performance time of just under 1 minute 50 seconds. That's a little faster than most good performances, but really not much. A few play it even faster:

[nyiregyhazi]

What you're saying is impossible at full tempo.  There is no finger legato as there can simply be no overlap of the depressed keys.

I'm providing what I'm learning as I learn it.

I'm not going to beat about the bush here-you're talking codswallop. At speed there is no need for any disconnect. You specified that particular fingers must release at once. That is just bollocks. The best fingering is tailor made for absence of clipped notes. If you have a problem preparing both fingers for the next third before releasing the previous, you need to work on flexibility. It's abundantly possible to avoid all gaps, if you do the sliding 2nd. Are you using a weird fingering?

[cabbynum]

I'm not going to beat about the bush here-you're talking codswallop. At speed there is no need for any disconnect. You specified that particular fingers must release at once. That is just bollocks. The best fingering is tailor made for absence of clipped notes. If you have a problem preparing both fingers for the next third before releasing the previous, you need to work on flexibility. It's abundantly possible to avoid all gaps, if you do the sliding 2nd. Are you using a weird fingering?

Just give it a rest, not everything has to be black and white with you always in the right.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just give it a rest, not everything has to be black and white with you always in the right.

It is black and white here. Anyone who thinks you "must" play notes non legato in chromatic thirds is talking out of their arse. Advanced pianists do connections I'm both lines routinely. Only in major or minor scales can it be conclusively said that sometimes only one finger can connect. I'm no virtuoso but I certainly don't tolerate any shortened or clipped notes in chromatic thirds. One member's limitations do not speak for what is and what isn't possible.

[faulty_damper]

I am using only Chopin's fingering.  At the indicated speed of minim=69, complete legato is impossible because you cannot let the fingers linger; they must be prepared for the next keys to depress.

However, it may seem like the fingers are playing legato if you learned it with slow practice.  At such a tempo, then legato is very much possible.  But just because you speed up from slow to fast doesn't mean the motions are the same.  In this piece, at tempo, it is different.

[nyiregyhazi]

I am using only Chopin's fingering.  At the indicated speed of minim=69, complete legato is impossible because you cannot let the fingers linger; they must be prepared for the next keys to depress.

However, it may seem like the fingers are playing legato if you learned it with slow practice.  At such a tempo, then legato is very much possible.  But just because you speed up from slow to fast doesn't mean the motions are the same.  In this piece, at tempo, it is different.

A false dichotomy. I both prepare the next fingers and fully maintain the previous ones. It's really not a problem with proper flexibility. This etude is about walking, not hopping. Sometimes connecting only one finger is enough, but it's easier still to keep a smooth line when you connect both.

Practise top and bottom separately with the normal finfering and you'll see both that legato is quite possible and that holes on it are heard.

[faulty_damper]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with flexibility.  I made a description of what my fingers are doing at speed.  I doubt that your description of maintaining legato is even possible even if I had the most flexible fingers in the world, which, btw, mean nothing in the context of piano playing.

[lazyfingers]

A false dichotomy. I both prepare the next fingers and fully maintain the previous ones. It's really not a problem with proper flexibility. This etude is about walking, not hopping. Sometimes connecting only one finger is enough, but it's easier still to keep a smooth line when you connect both.

Practise top and bottom separately with the normal finfering and you'll see both that legato is quite possible and that holes on it are heard.

Have i missed something? Bars 5 to 6 RH is just using the standard chromatic minor third fingering. I don't see how that is too hard to play legato, I agree with you. There are consecutive thumbs on the bottom consecutive white notes but as long as you have a flowing connected top note, legato is possible.

[nyiregyhazi]

Have i missed something? Bars 5 to 6 RH is just using the standard chromatic minor third fingering. I don't see how that is too hard to play legato, I agree with you. There are consecutive thumbs on the bottom consecutive white notes but as long as you have a flowing connected top note, legato is possible.

Indeed. Personally I slide the 2nd for even more legato still. The reason the g sharp minor and A major scales in the work are harder is because you can't always join the top voice. The fewer disconnects, the easier it is to get a seamless flow. There's nothing either unusual or even especially advanced about literal legato.

[nyiregyhazi]

I fail to see how this has anything to do with flexibility.  I made a description of what my fingers are doing at speed.  I doubt that your description of maintaining legato is even possible even if I had the most flexible fingers in the world, which, btw, mean nothing in the context of piano playing.

Flexibility is what gets the fingers over the top of the keys before the prior third is released. Hardly a nothing. I don't greatly care what your fingers do. If you feel legato doesn't matter in standard legato chromatic thirds or that the fifth "must" be released before the following third, you'll have to prove it to us by uploading evidence for other ears than your own to assess, after your few days work. Otherwise your word is of no more value than that of someone who says they saw an alien. Do as you please, but don't claim that things "must" be done in certain ways based on hot air. There's nothing remotely taxing about 15-23 that demands release of 5- or at least, not for anyone but you. It's identical to the basic technique for op 10 no 2- in which skipping the join when passing fingers over 5 would be both grossly unacceptable musically, and a major impediment to forward motion.

Awesome, having recorded this, I presume you still expect true physical connections at speed? To suggest they don't matter strikes me as feasible as faking smoothness without bothering to join notes in op. 10 no 2. And I seriously hope nobody is going to claim that physical joins are unnecessary there.

[faulty_damper]

You still fail to impress upon me the need for legato, even if you slide 2-2, that's NOT legato.  Since you are the one saying that this is true, then it is up to you to provide evidence that legato is still possible at such speed.

[nyiregyhazi]

You still fail to impress upon me the need for legato, even if you slide 2-2, that's NOT legato.  Since you are the one saying that this is true, then it is up to you to provide evidence that legato is still possible at such speed.

It's the most legato possible, which is why it's easier than two thumbs when mastered. From black to white, you can stay depressing one key exactly as you to start releasing the other. With two thumbs on whites, one must be released before the other starts getting depressed. But with either fingering that's the single compromise involved- which is acceptable due to being in the lower voice. Chopins fingering is tailor made only to separate the top when truly unavoidable (which is never in chromatic scales, either here or in op. 10 no 2). What is this nonsense of clipping 5 when going from 15-23? It's actually easier to step between the notes with a connection that to separate them. Unless there are serious flexibility issues, it's not in any way easier when releasing 5 than when making a join. And if you say otherwise, what the hell do you do on op. 10 no 2? You've made many claims of being highly advanced but your comments here are extremely suggestive of another armchair internet fraud.

[faulty_damper]

The sound you get from a 2-2 slide is the same sound as "clipping 5" at speed.  Both are "clipped" by your description yet I made no such claim, only that it isn't legato nor should it be practiced as such.  

[nyiregyhazi]

The sound you get from a 2-2 slide is the same sound as "clipping 5" at speed.  Both are "clipped" by your description yet I made no such claim, only that it isn't legato nor should it be practiced as such.  

No, they are radically different- because you asserted that five must be released instantaneously. It need only be released when the next finger is already playing its key, not before. Sliding two gives a miniscuke time lag compared to that full connect. But as I already said, Chopin fingered the thirds to avoid all gaps in the top except where literally unavoidable. He only fingered the top that way and not the bottom, as it's easier to hide gaps in the bottom. Thus either 22 or 11 is infinitely more acceptable than casual insertion of breaks in the top line. A miniscule gap between a slid lower note is not remotely comparable to a willfully but unnecessarily inserted gap in the top voice. If it were such nonsense could be hidden in op 10 no 2. It doesn't get hidden though.

If David bar-illan's careless blast through of this study is deemed musically acceptable, then I suppose anything goes. However if you expect the true legato finesse of friedman or ashkenazy, true legato does matter.

[lazyfingers]

Indeed. Personally I slide the 2nd for even more legato still.

The "Chopin" figuring is what I used to do when I did the ABRSM years ago. It is required that the fingering delivered legato even with 1-1. Your figuring sounds like the "alternative" fingering using 2-2 which was also played legato. I think the required speed was minum=52, which is slower than that marked for Op25#6, but not overly so.

Nowadays I think they are teaching "group" figuring using 1-2-3 on the bottom notes so avoid consecutives. Such new fangled ideas - what is the world coming to?

I think as long as the top notes are played as legato as possible, and the bottom notes only occasional so, the effects will be undetectable at that speed.

[nyiregyhazi]

The "Chopin" figuring is what I used to do when I did the ABRSM years ago. It is required that the fingering delivered legato even with 1-1. Your figuring sounds like the "alternative" fingering using 2-2 which was also played legato. I think the required speed was minum=52, which is slower than that marked for Op25#6, but not overly so.

Nowadays I think they are teaching "group" figuring using 1-2-3 on the bottom notes so avoid consecutives. Such new fangled ideas - what is the world coming to?

I think as long as the top notes are played as legato as possible, and the bottom notes only occasional so, the effects will be undetectable at that speed.

Quite honestly, the newer alternative grade 8 fingering is incomprehensible to me. I see no immediately obvious logical pattern and minimal scope for legato sound. If anyone could explain the reasoning behind it, I'd be very interested. I agree that the bottom note matters less, but my feeling is that the more physical legato the more easy it is to control the tone in general. For that reason I greatly favour the 2-2. 1-1 is much harder to mask when speeding up.

[faulty_damper]

No, they are radically different- because you asserted that five must be released instantaneously. It need only be released when the next finger is already playing its key, not before. Sliding two gives a miniscuke time lag compared to that full connect. But as I already said, Chopin fingered the thirds to avoid all gaps in the top except where literally unavoidable. He only fingered the top that way and not the bottom, as it's easier to hide gaps in the bottom. Thus either 22 or 11 is infinitely more acceptable than casual insertion of breaks in the top line. A miniscule gap between a slid lower note is not remotely comparable to a willfully but unnecessarily inserted gap in the top voice. If it were such nonsense could be hidden in op 10 no 2. It doesn't get hidden though.

If David bar-illan's careless blast through of this study is deemed musically acceptable, then I suppose anything goes. However if you expect the true legato finesse of friedman or ashkenazy, true legato does matter.

You can assert that they sound different as much as you like, however, AT SPEED - which you never address - it simply doesn't matter what you assert.

And the video of Ingolf Wunder... he's not playing true legato, either.

[nyiregyhazi]

You can assert that they sound different as much as you like, however, AT SPEED - which you never address - it simply doesn't matter what you assert.

And the video of Ingolf Wunder... he's not playing true legato, either.

You're making another false polarisation - between true legato and non legato. The reality is of playing not with extreme legato but not with outright non legato (without connecting finger to finger). Quick release means non legato. That's really not okay if you want a legato sound. It's not extreme melodic legato but neither is it non legato. Good pianists don't disconnect casually just because they go fast. If they do, the result is punched thirds, not legato thirds. This is why in situations where one voice cannot connect at all, it EXTREMELY important to exploit the note that can connect to the absolute full. To tell yourself that legato isn't an issue anyway is absolutely poisonous.

[faulty_damper]

You should proofread the second sentence because you aren't saying anything.  In any case: bullshit.  There's the damper which is used liberally throughout.  Case closed. 

[nyiregyhazi]

You should proofread the second sentence because you aren't saying anything.  In any case: bullshit.  There's the damper which is used liberally throughout.  Case closed.  

Sure, anything goes in terms of note lengths when the pedal is down. That's a highly professional attitude to take. We may as well do it staccato huh? I watched wunder and his sound is punched too often. Compare to ashkenazy in his early recording. Who sounds more legato? Wunder doesn't have the polish or finesse in his flourishes. And it's hardly as if wunder is making truly short notes, even there. If he didn't work hard to connect to the extent he does, it could sound far more choppy still.

The second sentence illustrated the fallacy of polarising between ultra legato and non legato. In between is connected legato without either missing joins or significantly exaggerated overlap. When the fact that legato is less extreme at high speeds is taken as a bad excuse for not even attempting legato, the standard result is outright non-legato. That's not the same as connected tones- which are fully possible.

[faulty_damper]

The fact is that in this piece, played at speed, you don't do finger legato.  It's simply impossible at that tempo.  Trying for finger legato will only slow you down and no amount of slow practice finger legato will get you up to tempo.

[awesom_o]

Awesome, having recorded this, I presume you still expect true physical connections at speed?

Yes. I practice always molto legato, senza pedal.
Personally, I think many pianists play this Etude too fast, and it makes it sound a bit careless instead of beautiful. So I like to play it a little slower than it's usually heard, so there is more room for musical detail!

[lazyfingers]

Quite honestly, the newer alternative grade 8 fingering is incomprehensible to me. I see no immediately obvious logical pattern and minimal scope for legato sound. If anyone could explain the reasoning behind it, I'd be very interested. I agree that the bottom note matters less, but my feeling is that the more physical legato the more easy it is to control the tone in general. For that reason I greatly favour the 2-2. 1-1 is much harder to mask when speeding up.

I "grew up" with the 1-1 fingering, and so favour it because it is just natural to me. So, I can't comment on the other alternatives. I can see favour in 2-2 although I can't prefer it from habit with the 1-1. The 1-2-3 fingering apparently is not as fast as the "standard" (if anything can be called standard) 1-1 it would appear because you have to use the 3 both on the top note as the bottom and requires a switch from 3-5 to 1-3 anyway which cannot be terrible fast.

With old fashioned (aka "chopin"?) fingering, I think the issue is the (5-1)-(3-2) switch (or 5/1 4/2) at the top if you don't have the requisite flexibility. This would be "natural" of course for some of us brought up the "old way".

BTW: I always start molto largo when at a new piece as Rachmaninoff used to do. This ingrains the fingering and the notes into the mind. There is nothing harder than to correct a mistake that has been "ironed" into the brain early on when playing fast early. Hard it is accept but that's how our brains work - we seem to work best learning things slowly and then pick up speed with proficiency. All those new fangled ideas about learning fast because we end up playing fast is just rubbish IMHO. Our brains simply don't work that way. Nothing we learn in life is ever learnt at speed. From walking, talking, algebra, Newtonian mechanics to Quantum physics. Those who wish to diminish the art to physicality forget that even the physical arts do not begin at breakneck speed.

[faulty_damper]

Yes. I practice always molto legato, senza pedal.
Personally, I think many pianists play this Etude too fast, and it makes it sound a bit careless instead of beautiful. So I like to play it a little slower than it's usually heard, so there is more room for musical detail!

So you aren't even playing it at tempo.  Saying it's more musical slower is a plausible excuse, but you aren't fooling me. 

[awesom_o]

So you aren't even playing it at tempo.  Saying it's more musical slower is a plausible excuse, but you aren't fooling me. 

As Hofmann said, "an aristocrat never hurries"

[j_menz]

I'm going to need clarification on the indicated tempo of a half note = 69.  Except for the opening bars, it sounds way too fast to maintain the entire piece at this tempo, particularly making the left hand part sound rushed when it carries a melodic line in the middle of the piece.  Surely, Chopin didn't mean a minim = 69 throughout.

So you aren't even playing it at tempo.  Saying it's more musical slower is a plausible excuse, but you aren't fooling me.  

Perhaps you should make up your mind.

[lazyfingers]

Yes. I practice always molto legato, senza pedal.
Personally, I think many pianists play this Etude too fast, and it makes it sound a bit careless instead of beautiful. So I like to play it a little slower than it's usually heard, so there is more room for musical detail!

I concur. I always practice molto largo/legato senza pedal to start. Even when I am proficient, it is mol to largo/legato senza pedal to start the day.

There is nothing worse than mistaking legato with pedal. Those who confuse the two are consigned to misunderstanding what legato actually is. If you can't achieve legato without pedal then whatever "legato" you think you are achieving is achieved with mirrors (or con pedal).

[lazyfingers]

You're making another false polarisation - between true legato and non legato.

When someone claims 1-1-1-1-1 with pedal is legato, then you must stop listening. The obvious question one asks is what is "the pedal" and what does it do?

No composer, and I qualify that because not everybody who composes is a composer (even if that statement alone may provoke objections), of any salt would contemplate 1-1-1-1-1 con pedal as a legato.

There is no "true" legato on the piano like in other instruments or the voice. The real reason I see you are even having this discussion is because there is this misunderstanding about what legato on the piano actually means. To me, it is not only just being "not detached" or "smoothly" (whatever that means!) but the quality of the tone as well, thereby my deep disregard for those who claim legato can be achieved with the pedal. What are they teaching these day if the literal is to be foremost....!

[lazyfingers]

The fact is that in this piece, played at speed, you don't do finger legato.  

Legato is legato. The sooner you abase yourself of "finger legato" and other forms of legato the better for you. No composer distinguishes about how you achieve legato.

From reading your earlier posts, you appear to have a "secret technique" that not only does not require (excess?) finger effort nor even technical practice as you seem to dismiss those with "excess" finger action as unsustainable in later life. Of course, my own personal experience and accumulated knowledge is diagrammatically opposed - given that I am of the "old school" (even though those you "diss" appear to be of later pedigree). As you can gather I am also not a fan of the Taubman school who debase "finger" technique nor other new fangled idea about piano - no apologies offered for being so.

But it does appear that those with "finger technique" have an advantage in Etude Op 25 No 6. There is simply no time for double or triple rotation, and there is no substitute for old fashioned fingering and finger exercises.

[faulty_damper]

I concur. I always practice molto largo/legato senza pedal to start. Even when I am proficient, it is mol to largo/legato senza pedal to start the day.

There is nothing worse than mistaking legato with pedal. Those who confuse the two are consigned to misunderstanding what legato actually is. If you can't achieve legato without pedal then whatever "legato" you think you are achieving is achieved with mirrors (or con pedal).

I disagree with this.  Play any left hand piece and you'll understand finger legato is not necessary simply because it's impossible.   But as you say, you're of the old-school finger playing way so you would believe that legato in touch is the same as legato in sound.