Tired fingers

[adanepst]

Hello all,

I'm wondering if someone might have advice for me. I'm a conservatory-trained pianist, and ever since I practiced the Brahms 51 exercises, rather intensively, daily, during my last two years at the conservatory (which at the outset improved my technique by leaps and strides), I have suffered from chronic/intermittent fatigue in my fingers, often seemingly independent of how much practicing I have been doing. There is no pain and no ostensible injury; at the time I went to a famous doctor who specializes in musicians' problems and he didn't find anything wrong. When this fatigue is present, it completely sabotages my technique and I can hardly play, or play very poorly (this problem ruined my exams at the conservatory). My fingers are simply very tired, and my dexterity is accordingly drastically reduced.

I have never met another pianist who had this problem of fingers getting tired so readily and then being practically unable to play. There are many moments and even periods when I am able to play normally, but this recurrent fatigue makes it extremely difficult to attain any kind of stable level in my playing.

(My technique is otherwise all right in terms of playing without tension, or without excessive tension)

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do to heal this problem?

I have very recently expermented with doing various improvised slow and gradual stretches of my fingers, hands, and wrists, and this is the very first thing I have ever tried that has helped. Are there stretches specifically for pianists that anyone knows of and that they can recommend?

I would be very grateful for anyhelp.

Many thanks in advance,
adanepst

[faulty_damper]

You are most likely co-contracting without realizing it.  You've gotten so accustomed to the sensation that you are not aware that you are tense.  I imagine your fingers are curled slightly as you play?

[shabbatshalom]

I would think that tired fingers may be caused by an overloading of constant arm weight, which can feel "relaxed", but in reality hampers finger dexterity. Of course, it could be something else entirely. I would (and do) spend a lot of time playing lightly and not too loud. And forget the exercises.

[faulty_damper]

The last time I felt muscle fatigue occurred a week ago after I helped lift a very heavy water heater.  I subsequently could not play the piano very well.  It has since healed, though my technique suffered as a result.  Maybe you're just playing/practicing too much.

[brogers70]

The thing is, you went to a specialist in the hand problems of musicians and he could not figure out the problem. It is very unlikely that anyone here, without the benefit of watching you play and examining you physically will have much of anything useful to say.  I'd persist with that doctor, or find another who also specializes in this sort of problem and ask them again. I hope things work out.

[hardy_practice]

Hate to sound  negative but some people just aren't built to withstand the pressure of a professional career.  Maybe try early classical? - a lighter keyboard and not so physically demanding.

[j_menz]

It is very unlikely that anyone here, without the benefit of watching you play and examining you physically will have much of anything useful to say. 

+1

It ain't gonna stop them saying much that isn't, though.

[nyiregyhazi]

+1

It ain't gonna stop them saying much that isn't, though.

Well, something is being overworked. So we're not speculating too hard. The arm weight thing is a likely cause, or excess arm pressure. Fingers work harder when you press on them than when you make space for them- especially when using scratching actions in the fingertips.

See the link under my posts for a blog entry about issues of finger curling vs lengthening in the finger tip. When I used to grip in my fingertips, I used to get aching fingers (especially if I tried to use my arm to generate pressure). I've never had such issues since I began to reference both lengthening and contracting actions against each other (which ultimately meant reducing fingertip contraction to being a very rare movement to employ, rather than a normal one). The post on the top of my blog gives both an objective explanation of how curling the fingertip can cause severe conflict between opposing muscles in the hand, and practical illustrations of how you can take the workload off. It's a very likely issue here. Although it starts specifically on joint collapse, it goes on to illustrate why even fingers that never collapse are subjected to far more effort if the fingertip tried to grip inwards.

[j_menz]

Well, something is being overworked. So we're not speculating too hard.

Obviously, something is wrong, but you are speculating as to what. It is possible that you are correct, it may indeed even be probable. There is a tendency, though, for people to chime in with their own favourite problem/solution, after which these threads degenerate into a slanging match between various schools of thought.

All without any further input from the OP. 

Surely the first step here is to ask for a video? Or at least further information. We have a description of a symptom. An exploration of cause surely must look at how OP plays, not just speculation back.

[nyiregyhazi]

Obviously, something is wrong, but you are speculating as to what. It is possible that you are correct, it may indeed even be probable. There is a tendency, though, for people to chime in with their own favourite problem/solution, after which these threads degenerate into a slanging match between various schools of thought.

All without any further input from the OP.  

Surely the first step here is to ask for a video? Or at least further information. We have a description of a symptom. An exploration of cause surely must look at how OP plays, not just speculation back.

Well, ultimately there are only two obvious ways you can strain your fingers. With an arm that is clenched so tightly and stiffly that the tendons that operate the hand are hugely restricted when they move. Or by forcing the fingers to work hard not to be collapsed against the keys by arm pressure. Given that he's been to music college, the latter is more likely to be the problem (and if he has the finger tip issues mentioned in the blog, even gentle arm pressure can strain the fingers especially hard). Some people may very well chime in with an esoteric stock answer, but the general underlying issue is very unlikely to be a surprise. You can scratch at surface issues in all sorts of ways, but at the root of it there aren't so many ways to overwork your fingers. Either you can have a badly disconnected arm, or you can have one that generates excessive pressure for the fingers to stand up against. In accomplished players, the latter is not so uncommon. It's not a surprise ashkenazy has problems when you look at how forcefully he burdens his hands. Sometime surface tweaks help, but I'd look right to the root of the issue.

Not that uploading a video wouldn't be a good idea though, obviously.

[j_menz]

Well, ultimately there are only two obvious ways you can strain your fingers.

That is probably true if the only thing you do is play the piano, or if the cause is in any case related to how you do so.

In other activities, there are many ways to strain your fingers, and nothing said by the OP  has eliminated the cause being unrelated to actual playing.

[nyiregyhazi]

That is probably true if the only thing you do is play the piano, or if the cause is in any case related to how you do so.

In other activities, there are many ways to strain your fingers, and nothing said by the OP  has eliminated the cause being unrelated to actual playing.

Given that the only symptoms he mentioned were within his piano playing, and that he failed to give any mention to any other activity in which he experienced onset of fatigue, I think it's extraordinarily unlikely. Unless he happens to be a rock climber, yet for some reason forgot to mention that, it's highly unlikely that the issues are being caused away from the keyboard- unless there are neurological problems.

[j_menz]

Given that the only symptoms he mentioned were within his piano playing, and that he failed to give any mention to any other activity in which he experienced onset of fatigue, I think it's extraordinarily unlikely. Unless he happens to be a rock climber, yet for some reason forgot to mention that, it's highly unlikely that the issues are being caused away from the keyboard- unless there are neurological problems.

Simply not the case. The fatigue manifests itself at the keyboard, but the cause may be elsewhere, and it may not manifest itself (or be recognised as such) where it is caused.

For example, if I spend several hours pruning shrubs I feel a general level of tiredness, I suppose, but not a specific fatigue anywhere particular. If I then play the piano straight afterwards, some things are particularly fatiguing, though other things are not. (The things which are are not normally any issue at all, and I've been doing them way longer than I've been pruning shrubs.) 

I'm not saying that something like this must be the case for the OP, simply that it cannot be ruled out without further information.

[nyiregyhazi]

Simply not the case. The fatigue manifests itself at the keyboard, but the cause may be elsewhere, and it may not manifest itself (or be recognised as such) where it is caused.

For example, if I spend several hours pruning shrubs I feel a general level of tiredness, I suppose, but not a specific fatigue anywhere particular. If I then play the piano straight afterwards, some things are particularly fatiguing, though other things are not. (The things which are are not normally any issue at all, and I've been doing them way longer than I've been pruning shrubs.)  

I'm not saying that something like this must be the case for the OP, simply that it cannot be ruled out without further information.

It would be a little odd if he's doing some kind of intensive manual labour with his hands but it didn't occur to him that there may be a correlation, or to mention it, no?

Also, what you speak of can still be down to technique. After doing weights, I learn a lot about my technique. Things which wouldn't normally hurt do, when I've tired my muscles out. I find it an excellent chance to perceive places where I'm overworking, but which I don't normally get such a strong feel for. Only when the muscles are properly knackered out do I fully perceive excesses. This helps me to play better whether tired or not. Arrau was insistent on carrying his suitcases and digging his garden. The most efficient movements still tend to work well when fatigued, whereas more inefficient movements start falling down and suffering. Tzimon Barto and Leon Bates are body builders and concert pianists.

[adanepst]

Firstly, I would like to thank you all very much for your generosity in replying to my post and for sharing your knowledge. What you have written is of great interest to me. Thanks again!

To answer one question: I don't do any other activities outside playing the piano that could tax the fingers or lead to this problem (which I have had intermittently for the past eight years).

I feel that either my brain and nervous system were "imprinted", so to speak, in a new way during my two years of practicing the Brahms exercises so that my organism now has the information "practicing the piano = tired fingers"; or there is something physically problematic with my muscles, tendons, and/or ligaments (I have the problem again today to a certain degree, tried some stretching once again, and noticed some improvement).

But I really don't know.

Maybe there is something wrong with my technique that causes the problem.

I uploaded a video, without sound (with my primitive equipment, I could not get the sound synchronized to the video), to YouTube. For some reason it ended up in slightly slow motion. I would be very grateful for any comments and advice. Here is the video:

&feature=youtu.be

Thanks again, and looking forward to hearing from you all,
Aaron

[nyiregyhazi]

Firstly, I would like to thank you all very much for your generosity in replying to my post and for sharing your knowledge. What you have written is of great interest to me. Thanks again!

To answer one question: I don't do any other activities outside playing the piano that could tax the fingers or lead to this problem (which I have had intermittently for the past eight years).

I feel that either my brain and nervous system were "imprinted", so to speak, in a new way during my two years of practicing the Brahms exercises so that my organism now has the information "practicing the piano = tired fingers"; or there is something physically problematic with my muscles, tendons, and/or ligaments (I have the problem again today to a certain degree, tried some stretching once again, and noticed some improvement).

But I really don't know.

Maybe there is something wrong with my technique that causes the problem.

I uploaded a video, without sound (with my primitive equipment, I could not get the sound synchronized to the video), to YouTube. For some reason it ended up in slightly slow motion. I would be very grateful for any comments and advice. Here is the video:

&feature=youtu.be

Thanks again, and looking forward to hearing from you all,
Aaron

It looks very good mostly, but if anything I'd say your hand looks a touch overly formed to transmit arm pressure, rather than to generate movement from a place that is supported by the arm. There are also many places where the arch droops and sags - which will necessitate short emergency tensions to stop the palm falling down all the way into the keys. I'd look into Alan Fraser's teaching on these issues.

Also, you lighten very well after each sound, but if anything you're disconnecting your fingers and arm from an integrated and sustainable balance. For me, your wrist is moving too much in a way that disconnects the fingers from the arm. Although such movements generate relaxation at first, they compromise stability in a way that actually generates harder work. Fraser's approach advises more sustainable contact, rather than having to keep lightening after each strike. When you get it just right, there's no perception of relaxing from anything. The problem with the tension release approach is that it can disguise the real moment of the problem - which is when the hand is bracing a little to produce sound. Relaxing after doesn't undo the damage. When you stay more connected and search for a low effort but sustainable quality of connection, you can get better at reducing the effort in the most important split seconds. Even a split second of bracing to transmit arm pressure (rather than preventing collapse with usefully directed movement) can do damage.

[awesom_o]

Maybe there is something wrong with my technique that causes the problem.

I uploaded a video, without sound (with my primitive equipment, I could not get the sound synchronized to the video), to YouTube.

How could anybody give you meaningful advice about your technique of musicianship without hearing the sound you make?

[nyiregyhazi]

How could anybody give you meaningful advice about your technique of musicianship without hearing the sound you make?

He didn't ask for advice regarding issues of musicianship. He asked about issues relating to physical strain. While there's some correlation between extremely bad technique and extremely bad musicianship, there's no simplistic consistent link. I'm afraid he's unlikely to solve any issues by giving more tension and release to suspensions and resolution, or by making a more definitive sound in a return to the tonic. Addressing musical issues doesn't automatically lead to efficient and safe technique. All too often, trying to achieve musical extremes actually strains the limit of a technique past breaking point. In this case, I can't imagine what issues in the sound could lead to a different perspective. Even without sound, it's quite clear that he's not mercilessly thumping the piano. However, there are a few subtle physical clues, that may not necessarily even be causing problems in sound, but which could suggest reasons for physical problems. I think he'd benefit from doing your abc exercises, in order to improve connection between finger and arm.

[shabbatshalom]

He didn't ask for advice regarding issues of musicianship. He asked about issues relating to physical strain. While there's some correlation between extremely bad technique and extremely bad musicianship, there's no simplistic consistent link. I'm afraid he's unlikely to solve any issues by giving more tension and release to suspensions and resolution, or by making a more definitive sound in a return to the tonic. Addressing musical issues doesn't automatically lead to efficient and safe technique. All too often, trying to achieve musical extremes actually strains the limit of a technique past breaking point. In this case, I can't imagine what issues in the sound could lead to a different perspective. Even without sound, it's quite clear that he's not mercilessly thumping the piano. However, there are a few subtle physical clues, that may not necessarily even be causing problems in sound, but which could suggest reasons for physical problems. I think he'd benefit from doing your abc exercises, in order to improve connection between finger and arm.

Well, I'd say argue that you have no more basis for saying there is no consistent link between musicianship and technique than I would to say there is always a consistent link (musicianship being more than mere realization of musical 'rules' regarding theory). That being said, the playing looks heavier than it needs to be. Appears to be aiming to the bottom of the keyboard and staying there till the next note rather than releasing the weight after the sound is produced. Try a more leggiero approach in feeling and imagine the keyboard isn't a machine but different sounds your fingers are bringing to life. Once you p,at a note, you can't change it so why keep more pressure than is necessary to keep the note sounding?

[hardy_practice]

Looking at the video I'd say your technique is fine.  Stay away from brutal exercises/music!

[faulty_damper]

The video does not show efficient technique and it is definitely not "fine".  There is a lot of isolated finger movements which requires co-contraction to articulate; as well, there's co-contraction every time you lift the hand.

One small but important piece of advice: you can rotate the forearm to depress the keys.  You never do so in the video, almost like balancing quarters on the back of the hand.

As for my earlier response:
"You are most likely co-contracting without realizing it.  You've gotten so accustomed to the sensation that you are not aware that you are tense. I imagine your fingers are curled slightly as you play?"

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, I'd say argue that you have no more basis for saying there is no consistent link between musicianship and technique than I would to say there is always a consistent link (musicianship being more than mere realization of musical 'rules' regarding theory). That being said, the playing looks heavier than it needs to be. Appears to be aiming to the bottom of the keyboard and staying there till the next note rather than releasing the weight after the sound is produced. Try a more leggiero approach in feeling and imagine the keyboard isn't a machine but different sounds your fingers are bringing to life. Once you p,at a note, you can't change it so why keep more pressure than is necessary to keep the note sounding?

I find that a bizarre diagnosis- given that he's taking this manner of technique to its extreme right now. Look at how his wrists are constantly floating up after the sound. He could scarcely being doing more to lighten after sound. The problem is that that moment of landing is where damage is primarily done. You don't need to flee from a comfortable balance by raising the wrist to lighten quite so much. It actually destabilises and creates a position where there's more work against gravity and probably more stiffness in the hand. If someone punched a wall and then leant against their hand - would you complain that they should stop resting against the wall lest they injure themself? I'd tell them to stop punching the wall but feel to lean comfortably against it as long as they are stable and in comfort (rather than working hard against it). Just because shoving down hard for a long time is terrible, you don't need to wimp out of finding balance by having to roll the wrist over every long note. It's more comfortable when you can maintain a simpler alignment with length.

When you look at great pianist of the past you see considerably less of the extreme rolling over the top that is already present. They all have the ability to make simple sustainable contact that is not a burden. Instant relaxation distracts from the ability to make a quality of contact that is comfortably maintained- just the same as how it's punching a wall that's harmful and not resting lightly against one. You don't need need to flee from situations that can be made comfortable unless there are problems in making them comfortable. Don't flee from such troubles, just learn to find a comfortable position.

[nyiregyhazi]

The video does not show efficient technique and it is definitely not "fine".  There is a lot of isolated finger movements which requires co-contraction to articulate; as well, there's co-contraction every time you lift the hand.

One small but important piece of advice: you can rotate the forearm to depress the keys.  You never do so in the video, almost like balancing quarters on the back of the hand.

As for my earlier response:
"You are most likely co-contracting without realizing it.  You've gotten so accustomed to the sensation that you are not aware that you are tense. I imagine your fingers are curled slightly as you play?"

You have given the same stock diagnosis to every pianist lately. How telling that you say the same about supposed finger isolation even when a pianist involves his arm to quite such visible extremes...

Seeing as you've never articulated what you actually mean, can you at least link some films of pianists who you feel DON'T rely too much on isolated fingers.

[dima_76557]

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do to heal this problem?

There is a lot to be learned from what N. says.

I suspect you should ALSO consider longer pauses between practice sessions during the day. For example 45 minutes in a row of concentrated practice and then a 20-minute-or-so break.

[hardy_practice]

The video does not show efficient technique and it is definitely not "fine".  There is a lot of isolated finger movements which requires co-contraction to articulate; as well, there's co-contraction every time you lift the hand.

Co-contraction is a necessary articulation otherwise fingers would just snap closed or open - let's put that one to bed right away!  As for loose wrists in constant motion - where's the strain?  N mostly posts gobbledy gook.  Still, to be fair, give it the once over - though it's totally impenetrable!

[faulty_damper]

Co-contraction is a necessary articulation otherwise fingers would just snap closed or open - let's put that one to bed right away!  As for loose wrists in constant motion - where's the strain?  

That's incorrect.  Fingers do not snap when muscles are activated.  The muscles gradually contract so the fingers gradually move.

Co-contraction must occur when the fingers curl which is why I made the comment about the fingers being slightly curled.  Since the OP indicated that he didn't feel tension, only slight curling would allow for this sensation (even though there is, in fact, tension.)  Drastic curling, like in tiger claw, would result in very obvious tension.

Do not be fooled by the conducting.  That is one aspect I ignored and focused only on the contraction and movement of the fingers.  He could be flapping his arms but that would still be irrelevant to the obvious tension in the fingers.

[hardy_practice]

That's incorrect.  Fingers do not snap when muscles are activated.  The muscles gradually contract so the fingers gradually move.

Look mate,  I got this from one of the world's premier hand transplate surgeons.  You require co-contraction for smooth movement.

[faulty_damper]

Look mate,  I got this from one of the world's premier hand transplate surgeons.  You require co-contraction for smooth movement.

Then he's an idiot with no understanding of how to play the piano.

[hardy_practice]

Then he's an idiot with no understanding of how to play the piano.

you gotta be kidding, right?  Funny enough one of his double transplants played the piano.  He was also a student of Solomon himself!

[faulty_damper]

you gotta be kidding, right?  Funny enough one of his double transplants played the piano.  He was also a student of Solomon himself!

I wouldn't want him operating on me!  He doesn't even know how muscles work.

[adanepst]

Thank you all again for the attention you have given my problem, your thought, and your ideas. I am touched by this and appreciate it very much.

I posted the same question in another forum, and after a number of thoughtful and helpful responses, I was disheartened to see the discussion degenerate into a "flame war" between two of the participants over one aspect. Since I am still looking forward to helpful thoughts and suggestions, and discussions, and an alarm bell went off after the last few posts (risk of "flame war!"), I would like to request that the discussion about whether or not co-contraction is necessary, or desirable, be continued separately on a new thread - it's certainly an interesting topic!

Thank you very much in advance.

To answer one of the questions: I do not practice very much at all at the moment, rarely more than 2-3 hours, and never more than one hour at a time without at least a 15-minute break.

Nirhegazy (I hope I have spelled the name of this great and little-known pianist correctly!): thank you for your thoughtful analysis and insights. I understand your suggestion and will see how I can work with it in my playing.

Looking forward to hearing more.

[faulty_damper]

But that's the problem you are having, co-contraction.  We can't discuss your problem without discussing it since that's the cause.

[brogers70]

Then he's an idiot with no understanding of how to play the piano.

I suspect that the problem lies in what each of you consider co-contraction. Physiologically it is certainly true that co-contraction is required for smooth movement. But that does not mean that opposing muscle groups should be contracting maximally at the same time. When you are going to flex a muscle smoothly, the amount of activation of the extensors required to keep the motion smooth is very small, and you probably cannot feel it. The fact that co-contraction is required definitely does not mean that opposing muscle groups should be isometrically contracting against each other, and certainly not to the point that they feel it as tension. I'm sure the hand surgeon in question understands that just fine.

[hardy_practice]

As do I also.  It's not a matter of to co-contract or not to co-contract, it's a matter of how much.  Thanks for the clarifying post and you've also hit a nail on the head.  Your body is habituated to co-contraction - you don't feel it no matter how over the top it is.  There's an interesting synergy, if you can call it that, going on.

Edit: and just for the record I have actually measured the co-contraction required when flexing the fingers using emg - its not insubstantial, in fact very much the reverse!

[nyiregyhazi]

As do I also.  It's not a matter of to co-contract or not to co-contract, it's a matter of how much.  Thanks for the clarifying post and you've also hit a nail on the head.  Your body is habituated to co-contraction - you don't feel it no matter how over the top it is.  

Really? Says who? I'd have thought it's what we perceive as "tension" more often than not. I can become tense either by taking a joint to the limits of its motion or by generically clenching in the middle of the range. Logically, that must be a cocontraction. Because, if it wasn't, the joint which is in the middle of the range would be getting moved by the action of the muscles. If there's no movement yet muscle tension there logically must be cocontraction. When people perceive tension without taking a joint to its limit motion, they are perceiving a cocontraction.

[nyiregyhazi]

Co-contraction must occur when the fingers curl which is why I made the comment about the fingers being slightly curled.  Since the OP indicated that he didn't feel tension, only slight curling would allow for this sensation (even though there is, in fact, tension.)  Drastic curling, like in tiger claw, would result in very obvious tension.

Based on what? As I state in my blog post, a curled finger that is trying to curl further would run almost totally horizontally when continuing the action. So it would have to be held into position with a cocontraction. No such truth applies, surely, when you appreciate that a finger that had curled in the past can be in the midst of lengthening back out? If you appreciate the appropriate action to employ, a finger can start as curled as you like without opposing muscle groups having to fight hard against each other. Advice to curl the fingers is misleading simply because it doesn't clarify that the curling action merely gives the starter position but then ceases to be a useful action to carry on employing. But it's not the curled position that demands cocontraction.

And give some examples on youtube. It's plain silly to keep repeating the same old analysis without ever giving any examples of what you feel is okay. You make the same criticism of literally everything on here-so instead of leading with negative examples offer a positive display of what you are saying is desirable, for us to observe.

[hardy_practice]

Based on what? As I state in my blog post, a curled finger that is trying to curl further would run almost totally horizontally when continuing the action. So it would have to be held into position with a cocontraction.

OMG, I'm horrified! what nonsense.  You clearly have no inkling of what co-contraction is.  Muddled as always!

[nyiregyhazi]

OMG, I'm horrified! what nonsense.  You clearly have no inkling of what co-contraction is.  Muddled as always!

No, you've mistaken contextual application of information with nonsense. I'm not reciting rote learned facts from your textbooks, I'm using contextual logic (of the kind you missed when claiming that the body cannot perceive cocontraction even when done to extreme- who told you such genuine nonsense?). When you're trying to curl a curled finger while depressing a piano key, either it's going to slide horizontally across the surface or a severe cocontraction is logically required to prevent that (although stop trying to curl, and the demands of cocontraction are lowered to whatever your hand surgeon would tell you). You can perceive the cocontraction very easily when the experience the stiffness of trying to curl yet not letting it happen- which braces the fingers into a tightly fixed position, thanks to a tug of war between muscles.

Instead of parroting rote-learned information (as well as making up your own about how cocontraction can supposedly not be perceived even in extremes) if you look at issues of context, then it becomes abundantly clear where there is a need for a truly significant level of exertion between opposing muscle groups and where the mechanical need can be relieved to a bare anatomical minimum.

If a muscle is contracting yet nothing is moving (and you didn't reach the limit of your range of motion) it is being cancelled out by an equal and opposite cocontraction. This isn't rocket science.

[hardy_practice]

I'll stick with the facts - rote-learned or not.  I'll leave the 'contextual application of information' to the BS merchants!

[nyiregyhazi]

I'll stick with the facts - rote-learned or not.  I'll leave the 'contextual application of information' to the BS merchants!

Wishing to stick with facts doesn't give you a right to dismiss applications of fact as "nonsense" - simply because they have not previously been spoon fed to you by textbook in that precise form. Muscle contractions produce forces and forces produce movement. If you cannot understand basic premises of mechanics, you will not understand why contracting a muscle without moving will demand a balancing cocontraction. If you want to see the big picture, you need to study mechanics too, not merely anatomy abstracted from a wider context

Also, if you feel you are dealing in facts then you can start by explaining where your assertion that the human body cannot perceive even strong cocontraction came from. I think it's pretty clear that this is yet another example of you mixing in your own groundless and logically falsifiable conjecture among those facts that you have memorised...

[hardy_practice]

, you will not understand why contracting a muscle without moving will demand a balancing cocontraction.

you obviously mean an isometric contraction.  If you can't talk the talk, don't walk the walk!

[nyiregyhazi]

you obviously mean an isometric contraction.  If you can't talk the talk, don't walk the walk!

If you want to be a pedant then learn not to be an ignoramus first. An isometric contraction IS a type of cocontraction- albeit only if there is no alternative means of support. You can do an isometric contraction against a wall rather than use cocontraction to stabilise- so to refer to it merely as isometric rather than as cocontraction misses the crux. The pertinent issue here is that the stillness is created by cocontraction THAT CAN BE PERCEIVED, not whether a piece of jargon is used to specify that there is no movement. A rote-learned labelling (that has no relevance or impact on any practical issues raised, or any different meaning) is all you have to contribute in response?

[shabbatshalom]

To sum it all up, your best bet may be to find an expert in piano playing rather than anatomy to help you.

[awesom_o]

To sum it all up, your best bet may be to find an expert in piano playing rather than anatomy to help you.

+1

[hardy_practice]

An isometric contraction IS a type of cocontraction

Accept it's not is it?  It's the other way around - co-contraction is a type of isometric.  You seem to realize that latter in the sentence.  Still never let the facts get in the way of paragraphs of waffle, eh?  As ever, I've been NYIREGHAZIED!

[nyiregyhazi]

Accept it's not is it?  It's the other way around - co-contraction is a type of isometric.  You seem to realize that latter in the sentence.  Still never let the facts get in the way of paragraphs of waffle, eh?  As ever, I've been NYIREGHAZIED!

If you want to correct people then get your facts straight. Its not the other way round, seeing as cocontraction can involve movement. This is all totally irrelevant to piano playing and the topic so I'm not going to fuel any further trolling. But there are isometric cocontractions and non isometric ones. Likewise an isometric action may involve cocontraction or it may not (dpending on whether an immovable support is introduced). I made it abundantly clear that I was referring to specifically to an isometric cocontraction (not merely to an isometric action or to other types of cocontraction) when I stated that no movement occurs - which is exactly what isometric means. Do you complain if someone fails to use the word "defenestrate" when referring to something having been thrown out of a window? Actually forget that, you probably would.

Now can we please be done with such irrelevant nonsense? This stuff is of no interest or pertinence whatsoever. You're simply trying to distract from the points that matter. But if you want to be a pedant then do a proper job of it- by being accurate about these irrelevant issues of linguistics.


To return to the point of relevance- when you feel tension around a joint that is not moving (I don't use jargon unnecessarily) or interacting with an external force, you are feeling muscular cocontraction of opposing muscles.

[hardy_practice]

As I posted earlier, contracting a muscle with nothing moving is called an isometric contraction.  Why do you now change the subject?  Check the post, it's above and stop wrecking this topic with off topic waffle!

[nyiregyhazi]

As I posted earlier, contracting a muscle with nothing moving is called an isometric contraction.  Why do you now change the subject?  Check the post, it's above and stop wrecking this topic with off topic waffle!

Nobody argued otherwise. This not an A OR B situation where truth of either contradicts the other. It's also accurately  called a cocontraction- if the stillness is accomplished by balancing with an opposing muscle, as is necessarily the case unless an immovable body such as a wall is used to prevent movement. Can you not understand that one accurate labelling is not disproved by introduction of another valid one? Stop making such a hopeless attempt at pedantry and either come to back to something pianistically relevant or stop wasting everyone's time. The first rule of being a pedant is not to make silly errors. If you think cocontraction and isometric contraction are mutually exclusive to each other, then you have understood nothing from your textbooks, but merely memorised terms.

[hardy_practice]

That it involves a co-contraction is neither here nor there.  It is called an isometric contraction and that's my last word.

[nyiregyhazi]

That it involves a co-contraction is neither here nor there.  It is called an isometric contraction and that's my last word.

Actually, the fact it involves it was the very crux of the point- which enables the situation to disprove the nonsensical claim you plucked out of your arse about how cocontraction can supposedly not be perceived even when present in extremes. Tense a part of your body without moving it and you are feeling cocontraction. The isometric aspect was not an issue that related to anything- as you never made any bogus claims about the supposed inability of anyone to perceive isometric contraction. What you claimed is that cocontraction cannot be perceived. That is outright nonsense. It's exactly what is happening in most cases where pianists feel tension at a piano- especially in the forearm. Instead of generating movement, muscles work against each other in stillness.

Stop trying to change the subject and have the dignity to either retract that load of bull or to just shut up and move on to something of relevance to the topic. Your usual combination of regurgitated but ill understood facts and falsifiable conjectures of your own adds nothing to this thread.