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Topic: Debussy - Clair De Lune  (Read 7661 times)

Offline in31l

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Debussy - Clair De Lune
on: April 28, 2014, 03:26:01 AM
I made a bunch of mistakes and it sounds really clunky, but this is as clean as it's gonna get (like my 20th try). I started learning the piece about 2 months ago, and just finished learning it 2 days ago. Unfortunately my smoke detector was beeping every 40 odd seconds but I don't think it's too distracting.

Any feedback is appreciated. What I should look for, how I can improve, etc. Thanks.

Piano is a Nordheimer upright, and I used my crappy macbook to record the sound.

EDIT: Here are recordings of a 2nd and 3rd try which I think are a bit better (no smoke detector).

https://soundcloud.com/user558170798/debussy-clair-de-lune-2nd-try

https://soundcloud.com/user558170798/debussy-clair-de-lune-3rd-try

Offline sehnsucht69

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 12:51:04 PM
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Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 09:53:22 PM
&noredirect=1

What is the point of this? I was hoping for some feedback and tips.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 02:36:57 PM
It sounds like you have learned the notes but are a bit unsure of the rhythms!

Have you practiced this with the music in front of you using a metronome?

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 07:46:34 PM
It sounds like you have learned the notes but are a bit unsure of the rhythms!

Have you practiced this with the music in front of you using a metronome?

No, I don't even own a metronome. Could you point out the areas that you think are especially bad?

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 09:21:31 PM
The arpeggios section begins way too loud and fast in my opinion, which is the reason you made a couple of mistakes in the big arpeggiated D flat major and the E flat major. It's supposed to be played pp and "un poco mosso" which is a "bit" quicker, and gradually increase in volume to f before the calmato.

Don't forget the time signature which is 9/8. The beggining wasn't played this way.

The variation of the introduction after the arpeggios is supposed to be played ppp.

On the final arpeggios, Debussy says "morendo jusqu'à la fin" which is gradually decreasing in volume till the end. It seems you made a couple of crescendos here.

Of course that's just how I think it sounds best. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretations. I just like having a dreamy atmosphere thoughout the piece.

EDIT: The 2nd post is a very good interpretation in my opinion. It's how I believe Debussy wanted the piece to be played.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
The arpeggios section begins way too loud and fast in my opinion, which is the reason you made a couple of mistakes in the big arpeggiated D flat major and the E flat major. It's supposed to be played pp and "un poco mosso" which is a "bit" quicker, and gradually increase in volume to f before the calmato.

Don't forget the time signature which is 9/8. The beggining wasn't played this way.

The variation of the introduction after the arpeggios is supposed to be played ppp.

On the final arpeggios, Debussy says "morendo jusqu'à la fin" which is gradually decreasing in volume till the end. It seems you made a couple of crescendos here.

Of course that's just how I think it sounds best. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretations. I just like having a dreamy atmosphere thoughout the piece.

EDIT: The 2nd post is a very good interpretation in my opinion. It's how I believe Debussy wanted the piece to be played.

Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it. Do mind referring to specific measures or timestamps? I'm not really sure where the arpeggio sections you're referring to begin and end. I thought the arpeggio section lasted from 2:00 to 4:00 in my 3rd try, but I must be mistaken. I apologize, but I've never taken any theory lessons, I just play for myself for fun, so I'm not totally sure what you mean by a 9/8 time signature. I don't have anyone to blame for that but myself, really.

Would you agree that measures 27-46 is the section I have the most trouble with?

edit: When you said my 2nd post was the better interpretation, did you mean my 2nd try, or my 3rd try? Thanks.

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 12:49:29 AM
Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate it. Do mind referring to specific measures or timestamps? I'm not really sure where the arpeggio sections you're referring to begin and end. I thought the arpeggio section lasted from 2:00 to 4:00 in my 3rd try, but I must be mistaken. I apologize, but I've never taken any theory lessons, I just play for myself for fun, so I'm not totally sure what you mean by a 9/8 time signature. I don't have anyone to blame for that but myself, really.

Would you agree that measures 27-46 is the section I have the most trouble with?

edit: When you said my 2nd post was the better interpretation, did you mean my 2nd try, or my 3rd try? Thanks.


Wow, if you never had any theory lessons, you did a pretty damn good job, buddy. The arpeggios I'm refering to are the the big ones on measures 27 and 28. Try slowing them down, it feels much better this way. And try to soft them down too!

For more advice on the 9/8 time signature, check this video out. He explains everything on minute 1:20.


And don't worry about the accuracy of your notes. You almost got them all right, it doesn't seem to be your main problem. Try to focus a bit more on dynamics and your piece will sound great!

When I said second post, I literally mean the 2nd post by sehnsucht69. Check it out!

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 01:26:21 AM
Wow, if you never had any theory lessons, you did a pretty damn good job, buddy. The arpeggios I'm refering to are the the big ones on measures 27 and 28. Try slowing them down, it feels much better this way. And try to soft them down too!

For more advice on the 9/8 time signature, check this video out. He explains everything on minute 1:20.


And don't worry about the accuracy of your notes. You almost got them all right, it doesn't seem to be your main problem. Try to focus a bit more on dynamics and your piece will sound great!

When I said second post, I literally mean the 2nd post by sehnsucht69. Check it out!

Alright, cool. Thanks for your help, and I appreciate the kind words. I'll definitely check out all four parts of that tutorial. I was just confused by the post made by sehnsucht69, since he made his own thread about it a couple days prior.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 02:35:40 AM
No, I don't even own a metronome. Could you point out the areas that you think are especially bad?

The beginning was pretty bad.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 06:32:53 AM
The beginning was pretty bad.

Thanks. Would you mind elaborating?

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 11:58:00 AM
Thanks. Would you mind elaborating?

It needed to be a bit more rhythmic.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 07:28:13 PM
It needed to be a bit more rhythmic.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. May you please elaborate? Like what do you mean by the beginning, and what is your definition of rhythmic?

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #13 on: May 01, 2014, 09:01:51 PM
What he means is that you should use the proper tempo and time signature. It's andante in compound time, in this case 9/8. You use too much rubato, which gives a feeling that the rhythm is all over the place. Hope that was helpful in some way.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #14 on: May 01, 2014, 09:56:34 PM
Some general advice:

- Learn to 'think with the melody'. Thats what its all about, the rest is just background extra.
- cut down on the pedal!
1+1=11

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #15 on: May 01, 2014, 11:54:18 PM
What he means is that you should use the proper tempo and time signature. It's andante in compound time, in this case 9/8. You use too much rubato, which gives a feeling that the rhythm is all over the place. Hope that was helpful in some way.

Thanks. Never heard of andante or rubato. But from what I understand, I should be flowing, not staying too long on certain notes where I should be playing the next one.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #16 on: May 02, 2014, 12:05:20 AM
Some general advice:

- Learn to 'think with the melody'. Thats what its all about, the rest is just background extra.
- cut down on the pedal!

Thanks for the advice. Do you suggest I cut down on the pedal pretty much everywhere? I was told by someone else to pedal more at the beginning because it sounded too murky.

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 08:28:30 AM
Thanks for the advice. Do you suggest I cut down on the pedal pretty much everywhere? I was told by someone else to pedal more at the beginning because it sounded too murky.

You have to try to avoid that you hear interfering chords because of the pedal, like in 0.08 (and pretty much the rest of the intro). If you want the 'mushy' effect its better to play more legato with your fingers and/or work more with fast short release-and-pressing of the pedal instead of lazily connecting it all with the pedal, because then it will just become a mess.
1+1=11

Offline pianoman53

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 09:07:33 AM
The beginning was pretty bad.
And I'm trolling, huh?

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 01:09:49 AM
Thanks. Never heard of andante or rubato. But from what I understand, I should be flowing, not staying too long on certain notes where I should be playing the next one.

Exactly, the tempo shouldn't be strict like a classical piece. It's an "impressionist" composer, the music is emotional, he's trying to say something with it. But it also shouldn't be all over the place. Try to maintain a balance between the two.

And andante is just a tempo marking. I believe it's at 85-90 beats per minute.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 01:45:53 AM
What he means is that you should use the proper tempo and time signature. It's andante in compound time, in this case 9/8. You use too much rubato, which gives a feeling that the rhythm is all over the place. Hope that was helpful in some way.

+1

Offline erick86

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #21 on: May 05, 2014, 04:08:06 AM
Nice work so far! 

I listened to the link for your 2nd try recording.  Here are a few other tidbits that haven't yet been discussed.

2:50  -  sounds a bit tense still, but i'm sure that'll change with time.  I'd like to hear a bit more of the melody ring out though.  This is the climax, imo... the crux of the piece.  That melody should be gripping, absolutely riveting and fluid. 

In general, throughout the piece, I would focus on the longer phrases; the longer sentences of the story.  Try not to have to many "breathes" in the middle of a "sentence".   example: from 3:08 to 3:24 should be one long phrase, and from 3:24 to 3:40 should be another.  I think that is where working with the metronome (free app on the phone!) would benefit.  Or just play the melody alone by itself to practice so you can hear the direction and movement of the melodic phrase as a whole.  Then add the rest of the decoration once you've distinguished the difference. 

You'll rock this piece.  It's a charmer.  Already very captivating!
 

Eric

Offline erick86

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #22 on: May 05, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
of course, working with the metronome is just for practice.  it is not ultimately played spot on with the ticker in a performance, as that would be blasphemous, but it does help to make sure that you are rhythmically bang on, and then FROM THERE, you can be more free and give it space in some areas, and urgency to others.   But currently the opening page is deviating too much from the written score.

Hope that helps.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 09:53:56 PM
Nice work so far! 

I listened to the link for your 2nd try recording.  Here are a few other tidbits that haven't yet been discussed.

2:50  -  sounds a bit tense still, but i'm sure that'll change with time.  I'd like to hear a bit more of the melody ring out though.  This is the climax, imo... the crux of the piece.  That melody should be gripping, absolutely riveting and fluid. 

In general, throughout the piece, I would focus on the longer phrases; the longer sentences of the story.  Try not to have to many "breathes" in the middle of a "sentence".   example: from 3:08 to 3:24 should be one long phrase, and from 3:24 to 3:40 should be another.  I think that is where working with the metronome (free app on the phone!) would benefit.  Or just play the melody alone by itself to practice so you can hear the direction and movement of the melodic phrase as a whole.  Then add the rest of the decoration once you've distinguished the difference. 

You'll rock this piece.  It's a charmer.  Already very captivating!
 

Eric

Thank you very much. Your feedback is very helpful. I agree with everything you said. I am trying to make the piece feel like it is an actual piece, not just me playing one section after another (I like your advice about the mark from 3:08-3:24). And fluidity is key. I definitely still need to work on 2:50. Again, thanks.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #24 on: May 06, 2014, 10:15:27 PM
it is not ultimately played spot on with the ticker in a performance, as that would be blasphemous, but it does help to make sure that you are rhythmically bang on, and then FROM THERE, you can be more free and give it space in some areas, and urgency to others.   But currently the opening page is deviating too much from the written score.


Excellent advice! Also, your words about not breathing in the middle of sentences were spot on.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #25 on: May 10, 2014, 01:51:47 AM
of course, working with the metronome is just for practice.  it is not ultimately played spot on with the ticker in a performance, as that would be blasphemous, but it does help to make sure that you are rhythmically bang on, and then FROM THERE, you can be more free and give it space in some areas, and urgency to others.   But currently the opening page is deviating too much from the written score.

Hope that helps.

I can't help making some obvious mistakes, but do you think this try is a bit better at the start? I tried to clean up the other parts, but it doesn't sound much different from the others, I don't think. But maybe I'm wrong.

https://soundcloud.com/user558170798/debussy-clair-de-lune-4th-try

https://soundcloud.com/user558170798/debussy-clair-de-lune-5th-try

not sure which is better (maybe you could point that out?)

here's one that's softer, i thought the two tries above were a bit loud:

https://soundcloud.com/user558170798/debussy-clair-de-lune-6th-try

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #26 on: May 15, 2014, 12:36:57 AM
Not sure if you still check this thread but regardig your last recording,

*It sounded way better, especially the beggining, but dude, please spend like 20 dollars on a decent mic, haha. The one you're using is extremely bad.

*Don't forget that on measure 17, there's a pp marking. The first note was very loud. Same thing goes for the calmato part. You played a bit too loud.

But it's indeed much better than the first recording. It'd be much easier to give some feedback with a decent mic, though. What is the piano you're using by the way?

Cheers, mate.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 09:22:59 AM
Not sure if you still check this thread but regardig your last recording,

*It sounded way better, especially the beggining, but dude, please spend like 20 dollars on a decent mic, haha. The one you're using is extremely bad.

*Don't forget that on measure 17, there's a pp marking. The first note was very loud. Same thing goes for the calmato part. You played a bit too loud.

But it's indeed much better than the first recording. It'd be much easier to give some feedback with a decent mic, though. What is the piano you're using by the way?

Cheers, mate.



Lol, I'm using my macbook's terrible mic unfortunately. I was thinking of getting a good mic, but I didn't think the purchase would be warranted if I were to just use it for things like this. However, I'll admit that the listener (you and others) may not get the full story without a proper mic.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll try to clean it up. And the piano I'm using is a Nordheimer upright, which I think is a very good piano (if I do say so myself). It wasn't cheap either.

And if you don't mind me asking, what is the calmato part? I'm really not familiar with piano jargon, I didn't even know what a measure was up until I had to find help for the song online (just an example of how clueless I am).

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #28 on: May 19, 2014, 09:05:41 PM
What is the point of this? I was hoping for some feedback and tips.

Maybe you should indeed listen. It does not mean you have to copy what you hear, but it can give you new insights and maybe a better idea about what we mean with our comments.
1+1=11

Offline schwartzer

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #29 on: May 19, 2014, 09:52:32 PM
The calmato part is when the left hand alternates between Ab and Eb, while the right hand plays the melody in the middle of the piece. Can't say the measure since I don't have the sheets with me right now.

Offline in31l

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Re: Debussy - Clair De Lune
Reply #30 on: May 20, 2014, 07:48:10 AM
Maybe you should indeed listen. It does not mean you have to copy what you hear, but it can give you new insights and maybe a better idea about what we mean with our comments.

Thanks, and I have. I would've preferred some words & explanation to go along with the youtube link, as him just leaving that there did almost nothing for me at that time.

But it has been three weeks since that post, so I've definitely heard what people have had to say.
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