Define Virtuosic

[piano6888]

This is going to be a loaded topic so please bear with me.

Thoughout the years, I have been getting compliments and criticisms from non-musicians and musicians alike.  I have been getting lots of comments in real life such as "wow, you're like Beethoven junior!", "You totally rocked those ivories!", "ZOMG piano master!", "(Insert compliment here)" I actually like these compliments  though I'm always asking myself, how can I be better than what I am? Did I hit a plateau or could I still keep going? How much potential do I have beyond my current level? etc.

Of course, comparing myself to non-musicians and the average Joe (not trying to brag), of course I would run circles on them in terms of piano playing.  Now compared to other musicians that are taking lessons as well, I consider myself to be on par or sometimes just slightly better/worse, but of course comparing to virtuosi and the greats, I am pretty bad and no where near their level of technique/interpretation/musicality.

A little brief background about me.  I started piano at the age of 8, took formal lessons under an ordinary piano teacher (not those that specialize in competitions or virtuosic playing). She is a very good teacher and very beginner friendly.  At age 12, I started to compete (sadly I never won, but made it to the state level for the scholarship competitions, NFMC a.k.a. National Federation of Music Clubs), and then around age 15, I auditioned and made it to a music conservatory where I began studying under a world class pianist. After graduating high school, I went and studied computer science due to the job market (though I would have loved to continue to study music!), so then whenever I have time I tried to retain as much of my technique and musicality as much as I can. (Just fyi, it has been at least 6 years since I've had formal lessons under a teacher; yes I know I should invest in lessons and find a good teacher, but money is tight here so that's not an option right now.)

My definition of a "virtuoso" is one that is able to achieve very high technical mastery while also having a very complex interpretation of the music and then being able to deliver the music with deep feelings, set the mood in the hall, very colorful, etc. Some of these works include but are not limited to: Chopin Etudes, Rachmaninoff's Concertos, works of Liszt, etc.

Finally, I have read somewhere that from a psychological and physiological standpoint, it is very hard (if not nearly impossible) to reach virtuosic levels for most people depending on their music backgrounds. In my case, I'd consider myself to reach pretty high, but unlikely to be virtuosic due to the fact that I started at a late age, my background isn't as rigorous as some of those greats (started at 8, and never really gotten very proficient until 15 whereas the greats have already done major performances won major competitions had training with other greats and access to better pianos at an earlier age.).
From the psychological standpoint, while it is true that at the age of 23, one is more mature than an 8 year old or even 3-4 for the matter, but also by then, something in the brain called "neurons" (which are special brain cells that help with learning, motor skills, stuff like that..) start to peak and then die off as one ages. I've also read one's prime is around the age of 25, where the amount of neurons are still sufficient and that one has fully matured in terms of the brain as well as character. (Even though kids have more neurons than adults, thus resulting in faster learning, they lack the maturity that adults do as well as the life experiences.)
Now from a physiological standpoint, those that start early have the advantage of playing well due body still growing and has time to adjust to the changes that are necessary to (physically) perform well.  This includes hand size, arms, fingers, etc.

Well of course there are exceptions and the "greats" that I'm referring to are those that managed to retain their technique, interpretation, and understand of music due to their foundation and
most likely a (physically) healthy body as well. (before too many neurons have died off)

Now with all of this in consideration, what do you think of the possibility of achieving a level of playing that is on par with virtuosic pianists?

What is your definition of a virtuosic pianist or virtuoso? How do you define it?

[j_menz]

A virtuoso isn't concerned about being a virtuoso. It's something they become in pursuit of becoming a decent musician.

[pianoguy711]

Our stories are pretty similar and we're around the same age.  I started around age 6/7.  I wasn't classically trained but jazz trained.  In fact, I disliked classical music and the rigors of practicing scales and etudes.  I couldn't appreciate it then.  Like you I didn't study music at the university level for job market purposes too.  A few years ago, I asked my teacher if it was "too late" for me to become classical pianist  (my technique needed a lot of work and I felt like strengthening it was hopeless).  He looked at me like my question was absurd.  He pretty much told me that all it takes is hard work --That if you want it enough, you will achieve it if you put in the time. 

I'd consider myself to reach pretty high, but unlikely to be virtuosic due to the fact that I started at a late age, my background isn't as rigorous as some of those greats (started at 8, and never really gotten very proficient until 15 whereas the greats have already done major performances won major competitions had training with other greats and access to better pianos at an earlier age.)

 

Stop comparing yourself to the greats!  I've asked these same questions and made these same mistakes.  As a scientist I get what you're saying about neurons etc.  Forget about of all that, you have all the tools you need right now at your disposal; you just need to refine them.  It might take years, but you shouldn't be considered with time if you truly love music.

A virtuoso isn't concerned about being a virtuoso. It's something they become in pursuit of becoming a decent musician.

+1000

[dima_76557]

@ piano6888

Initially, a virtuoso was a very good composer, theorist or simply some famous maestro. Their level of skills was of secondary importance; most important was the virtue of their knowledge and wisdom. Nowadays, the culture of competitions, cheap entertainment, and concert managers has turned virtuosi into ballistics experts who never fall off their war horses, even during stormy weather.

P.S.: Off-topic: How do you like this image of the typical 19th Century piano lion?

[piano6888]

@pianoguy711
How dare you tell me to not compare to the greats!  (Sorry just had to have a go at you since you mentioned that.  ) I don't really expect to necessarily reach that level, but I do use them as a guideline to where I stand (otherwise it would hard to gauge where I am in terms of musicality and technical proficiency.) I DO in fact love music (hence I mentioned that I still play piano even though I'm not making a career or studying it in school.) though I would love to always improve and progress because I believe I still have room to get better.. Of course, the question would then be where do I start?

On the last part where you mentioned neurons and the other factors that affect a pianist (or anyone for the matter) especially at later ages, how would one be able to utilize the tools that you mentioned? Also, the reason I have mentioned about aging, health, and other factors was the fact that usually there are other causes for depreciated technique and that while it is possible for one to reach a solid level of proficiency for one to be a great pianist (like world renowned, or even playing very difficult repertoire with ease) is very unlikely.  I'm not trying to discourage anyone who is older and are just beginning, they can be good pianists and can go far, but just not necessarily "world renown."

@dina
Ah, I see.  So that is what the meaning of a virtuoso.  Sadly in this day and age where competition is fierce and everyone wants to reach the top, I suppose the only way one can stand out is to have something that is their selling point (be it musical interpretation, technique, etc.).  Personally, I don't intend to be a virtuoso, but if I do set it as a long term life goal and am willing to do whatever I can to reach it.

Regarding the lion playing the piano... interesting

[pianoguy711]

@pianoguy711
How dare you tell me to not compare to the greats!  (Sorry just had to have a go at you since you mentioned that.  ) I don't really expect to necessarily reach that level, but I do use them as a guideline to where I stand (otherwise it would hard to gauge where I am in terms of musicality and technical proficiency.) I DO in fact love music (hence I mentioned that I still play piano even though I'm not making a career or studying it in school.) though I would love to always improve and progress because I believe I still have room to get better.. Of course, the question would then be where do I start?

On the last part where you mentioned neurons and the other factors that affect a pianist (or anyone for the matter) especially at later ages, how would one be able to utilize the tools that you mentioned? Also, the reason I have mentioned about aging, health, and other factors was the fact that usually there are other causes for depreciated technique and that while it is possible for one to reach a solid level of proficiency for one to be a great pianist (like world renowned, or even playing very difficult repertoire with ease) is very unlikely.  I'm not trying to discourage anyone who is older and are just beginning, they can be good pianists and can go far, but just not necessarily "world renown."

Hmm, I should have explained myself a little more.  What I meant by comparing yourself to the greats was comparing your musical upbringing to theirs.  You mentioned that you never reached proficiency until age 15 while many of the greats were already winning awards and had access to better resources.  Maybe you didn't practice 5 hours a day at age 8, or play the pathetique at age 12 like Gilels.  This doesn't mean that you can't still become a excellent musician.  I think you took my comment to mean "don't use the great's interpretation as a gold standard, a yardstick"--No no no, this is not what I mean.  Listening to the master's performances is like a free masterclass for us.  However, listening can't tell us what physical and mental processes went into making the music.  And I think that's where a good teacher comes in.

Also this woman was 109 years old, a holocaust survivor, and a concert pianist who could play the chopin etudes from memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oxO3M6rAPw  At 109 y.o. she still could play pieces from memory.  Has her technique deteriorated due to age? yes.  But the message of the music is conveyed.  I believe what she's playing.  Would you say she is virtuoso? She was definitely a virtuoso in her prime, and I would argue that she was still a virtuoso at 109. 

[falala]

Now with all of this in consideration, what do you think of the possibility of achieving a level of playing that is on par with virtuosic pianists?

While some of the details in your post about brain development etc. are not entirely accurate, I would still agree with the basic thrust of what you wrote. Having not had thorough, intense classical training to a high level early in your life, and having now gotten into another profession where piano playing is relegated to spare time, I can't see any realistic way that you would reach that level.

What is your definition of a virtuosic pianist or virtuoso? How do you define it?

I've always thought the term referred to someone of exceptional technical skill, who can play the most difficult works of the repertoire with apparent ease and near-total reliability, so that mere note accuracy is no longer an issue and they can focus entirely on musical aspects even when playing extremely difficult pieces.

[piano6888]

@pianoguy711
Thank you for clarifying your meaning and I agree that one could not simply just be able to tell what thoughts and physical processes goes into the performance.  As far as getting a teacher, that would be a plan whenever I make enough money to afford lessons.  Finally, the video about the 109 year old Holocaust survivor and a concert pianist, yes that is very impressive and I do believe she can be called a virtuoso for her wisdom and experience in music.  I do hope that when I reach that age I would still be able to at least do as much of what I can do at present day.

@falala
Yeah I suppose that is true that I may/not reach there, but if I can get to be even better than I currently am, then I would strive for that. Being able to play like the greats would be a dream come true, but if I can't that's fine as long as I can continuously reach new heights in my piano playing. I also had some people tell me that I won't likely be able to reach there if piano playing is only done in my spare time, though if I'm able to retain what I have learned and acquired in the previous 15+ years, then it's not terribly bad compared to those that lose most of their skills overtime.

And for your definition of virtuoso, that's pretty much what most people see virtuosos as. 

[visitor]

Uncommon creativity paired with flawless execution of the fundamentals

[piano6888]

I just remembered something that I would post before I forget, regarding getting a good teacher, I would only get one if I could afford one and also have enough time for practice (assuming that I don't have too many things going on in life that cuts down vast amounts of practice time).  It would be a waste of time and money if I didn't improve due to lack of time later in life or if I knew I wouldn't reach there any faster than I had I gone by myself.  If that is the case, then it would be better without a teacher.

@visitor
That's an interesting definition of virtuosic and also most commonly accepted definition by the masses.

[mohab95]

I think it's all about the willpower. If you feel you need to play cleanly to satisfy the hungry musician inside, you will reach it one day. You must want to devour every musically related aspect that exists up till now. Just for the note: Virtuosos make mistakes alright, sometimes even careless ones! They have good and bad days just like the rest of us I suppose

[awesom_o]

A virtuoso isn't concerned about being a virtuoso. It's something they become in pursuit of becoming a decent musician.

As usual, j_menz has hit the proverbial nail on the head!

[amytsuda]

Your post made a bit depressed!

I've also read one's prime is around the age of 25

I am mid-40s and re-learning piano last three years to resolve all the bad habits I built from poor learning as a child. No wonder I am progressing so slow, my neurons are not working! 

But I don't agree with you about what you said here.

I just remembered something that I would post before I forget, regarding getting a good teacher, I would only get one if I could afford one and also have enough time for practice (assuming that I don't have too many things going on in life that cuts down vast amounts of practice time).  It would be a waste of time and money if I didn't improve due to lack of time later in life or if I knew I wouldn't reach there any faster than I had I gone by myself.  If that is the case, then it would be better without a teacher.

I have multiple jobs and travels significantly. Sometimes, I can't practice weeks - no access. But I still got a teacher who is at Conservatory and it's quite amazing he still hasn't fired / dismissed me. I make slow progress either because of my time or my neurons. But I can tell you, though it's slow, I did learn tremendous amount from him. It's been incredibly efficient, and I am still improving. I have been taking videos of myself to analyze my playing and I can see a major difference.

Actually, the first two of three years, I tried to improve on my own, and I didn't get anywhere. I got this teacher last one year, and really regret why I didn't find a teacher earlier.

If you want to be better and you are willing to try, disregarding becoming a virtuoso or not, I think you should find a good teacher who is willing to accommodate you. Of course, you have to be able to afford one.... I know that's a challenge. But you are 23, so you should be able to figure that out.... (Even though job market is pretty rough....)

[flashyfingers]

Someone who takes a piece of paper with notes on it, and turns it into MUSIC