Need help with deciphering the rhythm, please.

[theholygideons]

I'm having trouble figuring out the groupings within this piece, and how they fall on the beat. Please view attachment. Thank you! 

[isyriel]

one note on LH per one note on right
you have to take each group on top as a quintuplet.
Honestly, when you go higher up in levels youll need to just assume things

[theholygideons]

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[theholygideons]

Still confused. I'm alright with the polyrhythms, but in the last few measures, because of the 5 against 3 grouping, does that mean that the G in the left hand, which is right in front of the bar line, is not played on the beat? that just makes the notation look so ambiguous.


someone help out.

[Bob]

Interesting.

What piece is this?

I'm leaning toward the composer being a little free with the rules.

(And what's up with 2/2 time, vivace, and giving the tempo in quarters?)


The simplest way looks like...
It's all quintuplet/5-note groupings, but shifted off the beat.  Duple for the feel, but with the first two notes of the 5-note groups as a pickup.
And then the LH starts doing triplets against those fives.

I guess I could see that.  How else would it be written I wonder...?


I wonder if it's one of those pieces that's easier to just play rather than read so much. Imagine sticking a fraction of a triplet across the bar and trying to balance that out with a note or rest value somewhere else.

I suppose if the composer were nicer they could have stuck some brackets in to make it obvious the first couples times.  


That's funny...  Scriabin?  I saw the notes and thought Chopin but that didn't quite seem right.

Composer's dead so we can all out criticize him.  I don't know how else it would have been written simply though.

If the RH is consistent quintuplets, I would treat that as the metronome.  That's going to get nutty hitting a bass note that's not on the beat.   The youtube video kind of has a floating, beatless feel.  Different I guess.

[j_menz]

Seems to me the purpose of the positioning of the bars is to make sure the accent falls on the third note of each quintuplet. That's your beat, and the bass just fits in with it, so in the last bit where it's 3v5 the pulse is still kept by the quintuplets and the LH carries on off the beat.

It may be easier to practice for timing by pretending the bar lines were moves back two quintuplet-quavers (ie, no two lead ins and everything starts to look a lot more normal), just make sure you eventually get the beat on that third of each quintuplet. 

[Bob]

I was thinking later.... What about those very first notes?  What if those 8ths are meant to be 8ths, in the space of one quarter note, while it's in 2/2?  And did that performer do that?  Are they longer, just a bit, or is that a nuance?

It's kind of the same at the end?  Quarter rest?  Or the value of a quintuplet?

[theholygideons]

I was thinking later.... What about those very first notes?  What if those 8ths are meant to be 8ths, in the space of one quarter note, while it's in 2/2?  And did that performer do that?  Are they longer, just a bit, or is that a nuance?

It's kind of the same at the end?  Quarter rest?  Or the value of a quintuplet?

I don't like that performance, too much rubato. Anyways, I've got it now! everything in the right hand is quintuplets, and the left hand just has to align itself with those groups of 5. I do agree.. the editor should have put brackets with proper note values.. 

[j_menz]

I do agree.. the editor should have put brackets with proper note values.. 

I have a new edition of some Raff where a rather snooty editor makes the point of noting that such things had been deliberately omitted (ie, actually removed from the source score) as any competent pianist would know what was meant anyway and they made the page more cluttered.

At least (s)he was honest - I have plenty of scores with such omissions but without the declamation.

I also pretty much agree. ***ducks***

[Bob]

One composer I remember was very worried about insulting the performer by giving them too many reminders.  Too much information meant they thought the performer was too stupid to understand the notation, they thought.  So they put the bare minimum. Personally I wouldn't mind.  But there is the amount of ink on the page factor too.

[j_menz]

Personally I wouldn't mind. 

Try some Percy Grainger. At his worst he even tells you how to sit and hold your hands.