[Amateur] I can play Rach C#Minor, what next???

[maxyim]

Hey everyone,

So I am somewhat of an ambitious, if impatient amateur.  I have been playing on-and-off since I was 3 (very musical family, good genes), but I have never really progressed far with it as I lost all interest at age 10 or so (I think from being pushed too hard).  I worked my way up to Fur Elise, Moonlight Sonata, and a few pieces in between, and well, that was it; picked up a keyboard in favor of piano when I went to college, did some composing, lost interest in that too, then life got in the way and now here I am, 10 years later, having inadvertently acquired an old Mehlin & Sons spinet and trying to figure out what to do with it.

Well actually, that was about half a year ago.  It took me a good two months (on and off) just to brush up on Moonlight Sonata, however at the same time, I got the relatively insane idea of jumping directly into Chopin Op.10 No.12 and Glinka/Balakirev's The Lark.  I brute-force'd my way halfway through Chopin (up until the left hand gets really difficult, measure 28 or so, could put up a convincing performance up until that part, skipping ahead to the awesome-sounding second chorus that starts with G-D-A-B) and dabbled in the Lark a bit, figuring out the flowery middle section for the most part but skipping around the very intimidating cadenzas.

It was somewhere around this time that I discovered Rachmaninoff and immediately added C#minor, Gminor and G#minor preludes, oh and Concerto No.2 Moderato to my to-do list.  It was at this point that I finally decided that I needed a bit of help and got a teacher. 5 lessons later over two months and I am playing C#Minor flawlessly, besides advice with most efficient fingering I really did not need a lot of help (rubato, tone, pace all comes naturally and apparently I have a perfect ear, thanks genes!!).

The one thing that I will say is that I have no patience for exercises, warmups, arpeggios, etc.  I know little about music theory and mostly play by ear, although I can read music well enough to get my hands in the ballpark to the point that my ear will correct and I can commit to muscle memory with practice.  

I also have no patience with learning music that I am not interested in.  I have spent a lot of time recently listening to classical piano, and am broadening my ("I like this and want to learn it" list), for the most part, I seem to have an aversion to Mozart and all the people and pieces that sound like him, and am more drawn to dramatic in-your-face after-work stress relief stuff.  Here is a quick list, including everything mentioned above, along with my progress:

Moonlight Sonata first movement - 100%
Rach C#Minor - 95%
Rach GMinor - 25% (currently working on)
Rach G#Minor - not started
Rach B Minor - suggested by coda_colossale, not started but will likely work on next and put GMinor on hold (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B%C3%B6cklin_Die_Heimkehr_1887.jpg for reference - allegedly Sergei's inspiration for this piece, also

for listening)
Chopin Op.10 No.12 (Revolutionary) - 75% left hand, 95% right hand
Glinka \ Balakirev The Lark - 20%
Chopin Prelude Op 45 - 0% (recommended by mjames)
Bach \ Gounod Meditation (this one-

, except that she skipped last part, so hard to find a recording of the "best" transcription of this, maybe I will make one!) - 75%
Shumann Intermezzi Op.4 No.V (https://www.youtube.com/watch?
Tchaikovsky Seasons - Troika (want to get this under my belt at some point) - not started
Bach(?) Toccata Fugue (Busoni! beginner editions do not interest me) - 20%
Rach Concerto No. 2 (at some point!? actually using first section as warmup lol) - 2%
Rach Etude Op. 39 No. 6 (Little Red Riding Hood) - VERY long-term goal (seems like most difficult of all?), not started

So yeah, I dove right into Rach GMinor (womp womp), I am here because, yes, it is difficult, my piano teacher thinks that I am a bit crazy (but that I can probably handle it), and I am feeling a bit more open to learning pieces that are impressive to play and will help bridge the gap between what I can do now and what I want to do in the future (GMinor, Concerto No.2, perhaps a few Etudes Tableaux); yes I fully realize that C#Minor, while being a good gateway to greater things, is not quite up there in terms of difficulty.

Now that you know a little about me, how would you advise me to rearrange the order in which I am learning?  I may be open to adding "intermediary" pieces to the above as long as I "like" them, also I may actually ask my teacher to suggest a few exercises that will help my left hand but I am not seeing her for another month so perhaps you guys might have some ideas?  Also open to working on parts of the above pieces at a time (ex. right now doing the arpeggio section of GMinor, think I can handle it but the parts of the song where you are merrily hopping around are more intimidating; in contrast the Agitato section of C#Minor was by far the most difficult so perhaps I should be building finger dexterity, maybe using parts of The Lark?).

[mjames]

Chopins prelude in C sharp minor

Either op. 45 or op. 28

They're both good.

[maxyim]

Thanks, not really feeling either tbh, maybe #45 at some point.  It kinda reminds of me of Memories of Green from Blade Runner, by the way...which is on my "fun" list (or I guess it would be more appropriate to put them the other way around)

(not me, to be clear)

[amytsuda]

I am a big support of adult amateurs like you! (I am also one though a lot older than you are) My teacher is making me do some Scriabin Preludes and Etudes, and I find them actually do help my left hand (my weakness). He was like "it's just a few pages each, nice small thing that'd help you well", and he was right. I am doing Op 11 No 11 and Op 8 No 2, and skimming on Op 8 No 5, 8, 9 and 12.   

[coda_colossale]

Nice progress. We seem to have similar tastes

More Rachmaninoff- Prelude in B minor, Etudes Op. 39-2, Op. 33-3...
Chopin- Op. 27-1, or even a large scale work like Scherzo 2 or Ballades 1-2-3 when you feel ready.
Lots of Brahms, especially late works like Op. 118-6, 117-3
Schubert- Andantino from PS. 20, technically easy, but very powerful music.
Prokofiev- Precipitato from PS. 7

[j_menz]

Bach(?) Toccata Fugue (three-hand style! beginner editions do not interest me) - 20%

Eh? What?

And if you can only do it 20% (whatever that means) then perhaps "beginner editions" should interest you more.

You seem most anxious to run before you can walk. I'd recommend you spend a bit more time building some fundamentals.

[maxyim]

@mjames, OK, so Chopin Prelude Op 45 is growing on me after many listens, thank you for introducing me to this piece!  I think that I may learn this next, I am sure that my lady will appreciate some more relaxing music being practiced in the household!

@amytsuda, thank you!!  Scriabin Op 8 No 2 is interesting, I may look into it later.

@coda_colossale, thanks!  Great point on Rach B minor prelude, I seem to be very good with chords which is the majority of the piece, and the cadenza will help with the Lark.  Where would you recommend that I look for sheet music with fingerings?  ISMLP not being very fruitful, don't mind paying $$.  Will listen to Brahms, Shubert and Prokofiev tomorrow and let you know what I think.

@j_menz, thank you for the good point, yes I am sure that you are probably right, but that is the way that I have always been and not likely to change anytime soon.  To clarify, here is what I mean re: Toccata Fugue THREE-hand style: https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b2/IMSLP05963-Bach_Busoni_-_Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_Minor_BWV565.pdf

There is a kiddie version of the above that is infinitely easier to play.  Busoni's transcription seems doable to me, however I feel that I have some significant skill building remaining before I can efficiently learn this beast (gets very challenging to both learn and perform at measure 10+). Progress indicated is for Busoni version (mainly I have the "fugue" down).  Let me know if you think that I am missing something here...

[j_menz]

@j_menz, thank you for the good point, yes I am sure that you are probably right, but that is the way that I have always been and not likely to change anytime soon.  To clarify, here is what I mean re: Toccata Fugue THREE-hand style: https://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b2/IMSLP05963-Bach_Busoni_-_Toccata_and_Fugue_in_D_Minor_BWV565.pdf

There is a kiddie version of the above that is infinitely easier to play.  Busoni's transcription seems doable to me, however I feel that I have some significant skill building remaining before I can efficiently learn this beast (gets very challenging to both learn and perform at measure 10+). Progress indicated is for Busoni version (mainly I have the "fugue" down).  Let me know if you think that I am missing something here...

"Three hand" technique is something quite different.

This particular Busoni transcription is quite difficult - not the most difficult one, btw, but one of the best.

Have you played an original Bach fugue before? One (or more) of the WTC ones for example? I suspect you're missing quite a bit if you haven't.

[maxyim]

"Three hand" technique is something quite different.

This particular Busoni transcription is quite difficult - not the most difficult one, btw, but one of the best.

Have you played an original Bach fugue before? One (or more) of the WTC ones for example? I suspect you're missing quite a bit if you haven't.

Oh, I thought "three hand" was sharing a dominant voice between two hands, as happens throughout this piece.  Don't think that I am quite there mentally, lol.

I honestly don't know much about Bach besides the banal, overplayed stuff and the prelude that I listed.  Given my tastes, what would you recommend?

[coda_colossale]

not the most difficult one

Would that be the Chaconne or am I completely wrong?

@coda_colossale, thanks!  Great point on Rach B minor prelude. Will listen to Brahms, Shubert and Prokofiev tomorrow and let you know what I think.

Please do.

Playing through lots of works just for the sake of expanding your repertoire may not be the best thing to do now. An intricate study of a Chopin Etude or a Bach Invention/Sinfonia/P&F, along with pieces of high musical value for you or some time for improvisation, composition, theory and even solfege is much better for developing technique than playing parts of Rach 2 sloppily.

 

Oh, I thought "three hand" was sharing a dominant voice between two hands, as happens throughout this piece.  Don't think that I am quite there mentally, lol.

I honestly don't know much about Bach besides the banal, overplayed stuff and the prelude that I listed.  Given my tastes, what would you recommend?

"Three Hand Effect" is sort of like playing two different arpeggiated accompaniments with two hands and sharing the melody between your thumbs. (Thalberg stuff.)

To play: C minor and D minor P&F's from BOOK I are IMO fun to play and not as difficult as some others.
To listen to: Well, I'd say begin with Partita No. 2, Chromatic Fantasy&Fugue, Chaconne, C# minor Prelude&Fugue...

[j_menz]

I honestly don't know much about Bach besides the banal, overplayed stuff and the prelude that I listed.  Given my tastes, what would you recommend?

The Well Tempered Clavier. As much of it as you can manage, starting with the three voice fugue ones.

[j_menz]

Would that be the Chaconne or am I completely wrong?

I meant not the most difficult of the transcriptions of this piece.

It's about middle of the road for Busoni-Bach transcriptions.

[amytsuda]

If Chopin Op 45 is growing on you, Op 49, F minor Fantasie may be also interesting. One of my favorite Chopin compositions!  Not a small thing, but it may make both you and your lady happy. For whomever suggested Schubert PS 20, I'd add it to my todo list, it's great!! (Sorry, not related to OP) And I think you can skip Troika....Kids do it way before they get to Revolutionary or Moonlight 3rd Movement.....

[seyefa872]

HI! guys i'm new here 

[maxyim]

Well hello there!

In other news, I have finally found a recording of Benno Moiseiwitsch playing Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op. 32 No. 10.  It is said that Sergei said on multiple occasions that he considered Benno to be better than even himself at playing his music, and since we sadly do not have a recording of this piece by the author, I plan to use it for inspiration along with Lazar's.  Already at 25% with it, wish me luck!

[mpmagi]

Are you me? I only ask this because I'm about the same age, picked up the same songs and left off after those only to come back to try my hand at C#minor and other Rach preludes.

How did your teacher take it when you gave him your creds and told him your goals? I'm a little concerned that most will grimace and hand me Alfred's while saying, "One day, but for now..."

[maxyim]

Are you me? I only ask this because I'm about the same age, picked up the same songs and left off after those only to come back to try my hand at C#Minor and other Rach preludes.

How did your teacher take it when you gave him your creds and told him your goals? I'm a little concerned that most will grimace and hand me Alfred's while saying, "One day, but for now..."

Haha, well in all honesty, C#Minor is not that difficult of a piece to learn once you have Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement down as it is mostly chords and does not have a lot of technical requirements; the Agitato section in the middle gave me the most problems but is also a good primer for more complicated works.  I actually feel like learning this piece gave me a significant boost in overall competence and confidence.  It also pushed me to obtain a deep understanding of the author and listen to a lot of his music, as well as various interpretations, and now, even though I have learned the piece, I greatly enjoy playing it in different ways (fast / epic, slow / intense) in order to find out what works best for my style.

As for my teacher, well, considering that I walked into my first lesson being able to play the majority of the first page (albeit with a few mistakes), she ended up giving me the benefit of the doubt after a bit of kind eye-rolling (I specifically told her that I was not interested in exercises, etc).  My logic is that I am 30 years old, very busy, and am not looking to make a living from this, rather I want to be able to come home to my piano and play for myself and friends.

In any event, I am making good progress on Bminor while continuing to tinker with parts of Gminor.  In case anyone else plans to work on either of these, the Alfred Masterworks editions have excellent fingering recommendations.  I expect that I will tackle G#minor next (lovely, step down in technical difficulty, yet will take a long time to execute correctly).  My current progress impressions of the Rachmaninoff pieces that I am working on / plan in the future:

C#Minor - easy to learn, moderately difficult to perform successfully, first section should be played in controlled manner and softer than second and third, listen to Rachmaninoff's own recordings to understand this and get flavor for rubato used.  Progress 95% (I feel like I can execute middle section better still).  This was Rachmaninoff's least-favorite prelude, by the way, which is why I am in such a hurry to learn BMinor to compensate lol (see below).

GMinor - very difficult to learn, moderately easy to perform successfully, the chief technical challenge is building up muscle memory / memorization in order to be able to smoothly handle all of the jumping-around and legato <> staccato transitions, there is however not a lot of technical considerations once the piece is put to memory.  The middle section is its own beast, and I find it to be good practice / warmup for the left hand, learning separately from the rest of the work at present in order to conserve majority of time for BMinor.  Progress 25%.

BMinor - Rachmaninioff's favorite, looks a lot easier than it really is, strongly feel that I would be a lot further from playing it without my teacher to help guide me through reasoning for fingerings and hand positionings.  At this point, I would say that it is maybe not as difficult as GMinor to learn, but the most difficult of all so far to execute correctly.  The cadenza is not that bad, but the chordal middle section where you have to jump around AND emphasize the melody is going to take a while...can't wait until I can play it though!  Also the slow parts look deceptively easy, follow the Alfred fingerings in order to be able to properly play by holding notes (2 fingers get a lot of action playing consecutive legato notes, which is fun).  Progress 20%.

G#Minor - Have not really started working on it but looks fun and sounds lovely; lots of emotion which means that execution and timeline to mastering will take a while, but seems like it can be put to memory fairly quickly.  Let me know if anyone else has anything to add, and what your favorite interpretations are.  No progress.

Concerto #2 - having some fun tinkering with the first few pages of the first section, very intimidating and will be a big project to learn, but I am in no rush.  I think that after I finish BMinor, I may focus on it exclusively to learn the first half of it, chiefly to use what is basically a huge cadenza (while the piano plays accompaniment) as a warmup for both hands.  My teacher does think that I'm crazy in this.    Progress 2%.

[maxyim]

Hey guys, checking in here after close to a year.  Have been taking it easy on piano and going slow, but I have Bminor under my belt for the most part, although I am still working through a few sticky points.  Also made progress on DMajor (Op 23 #4) and Chopin Prelude C#Major 45 (which I really love, by the way, thank you).  HOWEVER, I made another crazy "powermove" recently and decided to tackle Scriabin's Op 8 #12.

Link (Horowitz):

About that - it's actually going fairly well so far, and I actually feel like it's within my capacity to perform effectively once I get all the muscle memory down for the insane jumps and fully learn the left hand (right is no problem).  I was reflecting the other day at how C#Minor > BMinor > this piece seems like an effective study progression, esp. with occasional lessons with a great teacher, and if, you, are, like me, not in a position to treat piano as a part-time job, and/or are not in a huge rush for results.

Now for my question.  I am already setting sights on my next piece, and have recently become enamored with Rachmaninoff's Tableaux Op 39 #5 and #8.

Op 39 #5:

Op 39 #8:

I really like both of these a lot for different reasons.  Started tinkering with them a bit, and am noticing that #5 is significantly more challenging than #8 on a technical level with triplets galore, so I was planning on tackling that one with the teacher; #8 actually has fingerings available and I could potentially sight-read it on my own down the road.  But I wonder if I should consider #8 first in order to bridge the gap in my current repertoire, what do you guys think?  Will probably target #6 after these two, by the way.

[dcstudio]

you should post record some videos and post them so we can see how you are doing