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or not 10,000 hours... (Read 3592 times)

Offline Bob

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or not 10,000 hours...
« on: September 29, 2014, 10:23:53 PM »
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline senanserat

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 10:30:16 PM »
Good find, will read.
"The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears, the thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!"

Offline j_menz

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 10:51:22 PM »
Complete rubbish, of course.

9,999 is more than adequate.  ::)
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline Bob

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 10:55:00 PM »
This is going to be one of those issues that never dies.  

Teachers are going to want the 10,000 idea because you can tell that to a student to motivate them.  

And there's the word "deliberate."  If it's a person low on brain power, maybe they could have achieved mastery, but they didn't practice deliberately enough.  


It's probably safe to say being a genius/having a lot of brainpower helps.  Good genes/body helps.  Wise advice from a teacher.  And then 10,000+ hours of thoughtful practice.  

All that sounds like things that have already come up with this topic.  


I suppose the 10,000 hour idea could imply, if you put in 10,000 hours, you'll probably master it.  Not true.  But that's kind of the idea a teacher would sell.  And if this article is pointing out the really negative element -- Some people just aren't going to be achieve mastery.  Maybe it's 10,000 hours for most, but there would be some who take xx times more and they'll be dead before they can put in that time. 

On the other hand, if you don't put in those 10,000 hours, the chances of mastery would be a lot less.  You just don't know until you put some work in.

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 11:11:52 PM »
A few ideas from the article...


Age at which the person starts practicing.
Genes.
Exceptional performance at the very start.



Broadens out in the second half.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline senanserat

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 11:26:52 PM »
Such a depressing little thing
"The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears, the thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!"

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 12:16:31 AM »
Pretty depressing, but can be misleading. I still don't think the determination of ability by genes is that cut and dry.

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #7 on: October 09, 2014, 12:19:38 AM »
I wish I could go back in time and…have Chopin's baby.
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Online outin

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #8 on: October 09, 2014, 03:06:53 AM »
Of course I will be a master after 10 000 hours. I am counting very carefully. I have now done 1327 hours. Only 8673 to go  8)

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 03:49:56 AM »
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No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #10 on: October 09, 2014, 06:40:13 AM »

Why is that?
Should be pretty clear, I think. Just a lack of agency, and a sense that your future path (or possible ones) is predetermined.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #11 on: October 09, 2014, 06:54:05 AM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 07:33:06 AM »
That sounds like a fatalistic interpretation of the data. I don't think it works that way. There is always the possibility to overcome certain limitations (genes, environment, mindsets, etc.), but most probably not within the standard 10,000 hours. You may need some serious luck too.
Neither do I, but I can't help but think that's the feeling the article intended to deliver, in a way

Offline ahinton

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 08:45:17 AM »
I wish I could go back in time and…have Chopin's baby.
Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #14 on: October 09, 2014, 07:58:03 PM »
Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair

Nah, I like to imagine that we would have had...no problems, and a mutual agreement.
I'm hungry

Offline awesom_o

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #15 on: October 09, 2014, 07:59:54 PM »
I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred...  :o

Offline j_menz

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #16 on: October 09, 2014, 09:47:08 PM »
Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair

History would suggest Freddy's consent wouldn't likely be the problem.

GS had a mean right hook, though, which may have more pertinence.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #17 on: October 09, 2014, 09:50:41 PM »
I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred...  :o

Oh, you know I would!!
I'm hungry

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #18 on: October 10, 2014, 02:14:15 AM »
I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred...  :o
If u call Chopin Fred do u give permission for people to call u Carley after u die

Online outin

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #19 on: October 10, 2014, 03:36:47 AM »
Oh, you know I would!!

Are you prepared to face the possible monster you two would create? Think about it...he wasn't the most flexible person in the world in his opinions and you... present your opinions in a rather violent way if needed  ;D

Offline awesom_o

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #20 on: October 10, 2014, 03:40:43 AM »
If u call Chopin Fred do u give permission for people to call u Carley after u die

People in my inner circle sometimes call me that, but it's spelled with with an 'ie' at the end, and no 'y'.

Anyone who spends as much time with my works as I've spent with Fred's can call me whatever they like :D

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #21 on: October 10, 2014, 03:44:14 AM »
Are you prepared to face the possible monster you two would create? Think about it...he wasn't the most flexible person in the world in his opinions and you... present your opinions in a rather violent way if needed  ;D

I am not sure, but he did die single. And I suppose, so will I? :P
I'm hungry

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #22 on: October 10, 2014, 03:47:11 AM »
People in my inner circle sometimes call me that, but it's spelled with with an 'ie' at the end, and no 'y'.

Anyone who spends as much time with my works as I've spent with Fred's can call me whatever they like :D
Are you hinting that you will have authored a comparable volume of works? :D

Offline awesom_o

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #23 on: October 10, 2014, 03:49:06 AM »
Are you hinting that you will have authored a comparable volume of works? :D

I wish! Hopefully I'll get there before I die ;)

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #24 on: October 10, 2014, 03:59:08 AM »
I wish! Hopefully I'll get there before I die ;)
looking forward to it  ;D

Online outin

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #25 on: October 10, 2014, 04:13:46 AM »
I am not sure, but he did die single. And I suppose, so will I? :P

We all kind of die alone anyway, won't we? So does it really matter?  ;)

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #26 on: October 10, 2014, 04:16:51 AM »
We all kind of die alone anyway, won't we? So does it really matter?  ;)

That is completely true, now!
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Online outin

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #27 on: October 10, 2014, 04:25:00 AM »
That is completely true, now!

So let's just enjoy our singularity!  :)

Offline flashyfingers

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #28 on: October 10, 2014, 04:26:28 AM »
So let's just enjoy our singularity!  :)

Amen! :D Life is full of things to accomplish.
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Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #29 on: October 10, 2014, 03:27:00 PM »
Whats been depressing me lately about this stuff is how it feels like who I am is set in stone.

Certainly, you can talk about the power of self-change (which I believe in, I think). But generally, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. You hear about how adopted children are more similar to their biological parents than their adopters. You hear about how talent is passed down in a family. You hear about sons who are like their fathers and go on to have sons who are like themselves.

I see characteristics of my parents I consider unpleasant in myself. What's frustrating about it is that they take the form of an instant, initial reaction to things - even if I say, oh no, I shouldn't react that way, I can't change the fact that I reacted that way in the beginning.

There are examples of children who fall prey to the same downfall as their parents by being similar people. Is who I am right now inevitable, because I was born this way? And even if I change myself, isn't that unnatural, because my genetic tendencies apparently differ?

 ;D This is my extremely pessimistic side. Just some stuff to talk about. In reality, I have a much more positive outlook (though it's sometimes clouded by this kind of doubt). In a sense I'm playing devil's advocate, so don't think I completely lack hope for people's existences.

Offline dima_ogorodnikov

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #30 on: October 10, 2014, 03:46:32 PM »
-
No amount of how-to information is going to work if you have the wrong mindset, the wrong guiding philosophies. Avoid losers like the plague, and gather with and learn from winners only.

Offline awesom_o

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #31 on: October 10, 2014, 03:46:55 PM »
You hear about how adopted children are more similar to their biological parents than their adopters. You hear about how talent is passed down in a family. You hear about sons who are like their fathers and go on to have sons who are like themselves.

I see characteristics of my parents I consider unpleasant in myself. What's frustrating about it is that they take the form of an instant, initial reaction to things - even if I say, oh no, I shouldn't react that way, I can't change the fact that I reacted that way in the beginning.



Who you are is not set in stone! Don't worry about the crap you hear about talent, genes, etc.

Music is about optimism! You have to be optimistic that you can improve, that you can learn what you want to learn.  You have to believe that you can change who you are. To be a musician is to grow yourself every day. Each day you have to fight against the drive to do nothing, to be lazy, to waste time. Those things will not help you to grow into a bigger, better person. Music will help you!

It is very easy to have an initial reaction to something (often a negative one). It is harder to really understand your reaction, and explore why it was negative. It's good to try and expand your taste... eat healthier food, do more exercise, practice deeper, discover composers you have neglected, learn new skills, etc. I'm not saying we have to have a positive reaction to everything... there's a lot of crap out there (ISIS, Miley Cyrus, Boulez, Monsanto) and you have to cultivate your taste and know what's good and what's bogus. But there's so much stuff I used to think was bogus that I now love very deeply (Baroque music, Classical music, South Park, vegetarian food).

Don't worry about what is 'natural'. Is music natural? I don't care. I just like it, therefore I try to perfect it, every day!

Online outin

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #32 on: October 10, 2014, 04:28:08 PM »
there's a lot of crap out there (... Boulez ....) and you have to cultivate your taste and know what's good and what's bogus.

???  ::)

Offline awesom_o

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Re: or not 10,000 hours...
«Reply #33 on: October 10, 2014, 04:48:06 PM »
???  ::)

ok, ok, I admit, maybe Boulez didn't deserve to be in the same bracket category as as ISIS and Monsanto....  ;)

I rather like some of his music!