or not 10,000 hours...

[Bob]

https://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/09/malcolm_gladwell_s_10_000_hour_rule_for_deliberate_practice_is_wrong_genes.html

Good genes and innate brainpower... Plus 10,000 of deliberate practice....

[senanserat]

Good find, will read.

[j_menz]

Complete rubbish, of course.

9,999 is more than adequate. 

[Bob]

This is going to be one of those issues that never dies.  

Teachers are going to want the 10,000 idea because you can tell that to a student to motivate them.  

And there's the word "deliberate."  If it's a person low on brain power, maybe they could have achieved mastery, but they didn't practice deliberately enough.  


It's probably safe to say being a genius/having a lot of brainpower helps.  Good genes/body helps.  Wise advice from a teacher.  And then 10,000+ hours of thoughtful practice.  

All that sounds like things that have already come up with this topic.  


I suppose the 10,000 hour idea could imply, if you put in 10,000 hours, you'll probably master it.  Not true.  But that's kind of the idea a teacher would sell.  And if this article is pointing out the really negative element -- Some people just aren't going to be achieve mastery.  Maybe it's 10,000 hours for most, but there would be some who take xx times more and they'll be dead before they can put in that time. 

On the other hand, if you don't put in those 10,000 hours, the chances of mastery would be a lot less.  You just don't know until you put some work in.

[Bob]

A few ideas from the article...


Age at which the person starts practicing.
Genes.
Exceptional performance at the very start.



Broadens out in the second half.

[senanserat]

Such a depressing little thing

[swagmaster420x]

Pretty depressing, but can be misleading. I still don't think the determination of ability by genes is that cut and dry.

[flashyfingers]

I wish I could go back in time and…have Chopin's baby.

[outin]

Of course I will be a master after 10 000 hours. I am counting very carefully. I have now done 1327 hours. Only 8673 to go 

[dima_76557]

https://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/09/malcolm_gladwell_s_10_000_hour_rule_for_deliberate_practice_is_wrong_genes.html

Good genes and innate brainpower... Plus 10,000 of deliberate practice....

Happy to see that at last, common sense seems to kick in. They still have a long way to go because that is not the whole picture. Ego problems, misguided belief systems, quality guidance (or not), plain luck (or not) etc. may also affect development seriously and you don't have to be a scientist to figure that out.

Pretty depressing

Why is that?

[swagmaster420x]

Why is that?

Should be pretty clear, I think. Just a lack of agency, and a sense that your future path (or possible ones) is predetermined.

[dima_76557]

Should be pretty clear, I think. Just a lack of agency, and a sense that your future path (or possible ones) is predetermined.

That sounds like a fatalistic interpretation of the data. I don't think it works that way. There is always the possibility to overcome certain limitations (genes, environment, mindsets, etc.), but most probably not within the standard 10,000 hours. You may need some serious luck too.

[swagmaster420x]

That sounds like a fatalistic interpretation of the data. I don't think it works that way. There is always the possibility to overcome certain limitations (genes, environment, mindsets, etc.), but most probably not within the standard 10,000 hours. You may need some serious luck too.

Neither do I, but I can't help but think that's the feeling the article intended to deliver, in a way

[ahinton]

I wish I could go back in time and…have Chopin's baby.

Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair

[flashyfingers]

Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair

Nah, I like to imagine that we would have had...no problems, and a mutual agreement.

[awesom_o]

I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred... 

[j_menz]

Don't you think that Chopin's consent or otherwise to such an arrangement might have some pertinence here?...

Best,

Alistair

History would suggest Freddy's consent wouldn't likely be the problem.

GS had a mean right hook, though, which may have more pertinence.

[flashyfingers]

I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred... 

Oh, you know I would!!

[swagmaster420x]

I can't believe you would rape my dear friend Fred... 

If u call Chopin Fred do u give permission for people to call u Carley after u die

[outin]

Oh, you know I would!!

Are you prepared to face the possible monster you two would create? Think about it...he wasn't the most flexible person in the world in his opinions and you... present your opinions in a rather violent way if needed 

[awesom_o]

If u call Chopin Fred do u give permission for people to call u Carley after u die

People in my inner circle sometimes call me that, but it's spelled with with an 'ie' at the end, and no 'y'.

Anyone who spends as much time with my works as I've spent with Fred's can call me whatever they like

[flashyfingers]

Are you prepared to face the possible monster you two would create? Think about it...he wasn't the most flexible person in the world in his opinions and you... present your opinions in a rather violent way if needed 

I am not sure, but he did die single. And I suppose, so will I?

[swagmaster420x]

People in my inner circle sometimes call me that, but it's spelled with with an 'ie' at the end, and no 'y'.

Anyone who spends as much time with my works as I've spent with Fred's can call me whatever they like

Are you hinting that you will have authored a comparable volume of works?

[awesom_o]

Are you hinting that you will have authored a comparable volume of works?

I wish! Hopefully I'll get there before I die

[swagmaster420x]

I wish! Hopefully I'll get there before I die

looking forward to it 

[outin]

I am not sure, but he did die single. And I suppose, so will I?

We all kind of die alone anyway, won't we? So does it really matter? 

[flashyfingers]

We all kind of die alone anyway, won't we? So does it really matter? 

That is completely true, now!

[outin]

That is completely true, now!

So let's just enjoy our singularity! 

[flashyfingers]

So let's just enjoy our singularity! 

Amen! Life is full of things to accomplish.

[swagmaster420x]

Whats been depressing me lately about this stuff is how it feels like who I am is set in stone.

Certainly, you can talk about the power of self-change (which I believe in, I think). But generally, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. You hear about how adopted children are more similar to their biological parents than their adopters. You hear about how talent is passed down in a family. You hear about sons who are like their fathers and go on to have sons who are like themselves.

I see characteristics of my parents I consider unpleasant in myself. What's frustrating about it is that they take the form of an instant, initial reaction to things - even if I say, oh no, I shouldn't react that way, I can't change the fact that I reacted that way in the beginning.

There are examples of children who fall prey to the same downfall as their parents by being similar people. Is who I am right now inevitable, because I was born this way? And even if I change myself, isn't that unnatural, because my genetic tendencies apparently differ?

  This is my extremely pessimistic side. Just some stuff to talk about. In reality, I have a much more positive outlook (though it's sometimes clouded by this kind of doubt). In a sense I'm playing devil's advocate, so don't think I completely lack hope for people's existences.

[dima_76557]

@ swagmaster420x

Most of what you stated is not genetic traits; it's LEARNED behavior. That's a big difference. There is no reason at all to be pessimistic about the things you inherited from your ancestors (that group includes not only your parents but also grandparents, sometimes uncles, aunts, etc.) and what you inherited does not necessarily pre-determine your life. The lesson to learn is to recognize your own propensities and do something about them if they seem destructive in any way.

[awesom_o]

You hear about how adopted children are more similar to their biological parents than their adopters. You hear about how talent is passed down in a family. You hear about sons who are like their fathers and go on to have sons who are like themselves.

I see characteristics of my parents I consider unpleasant in myself. What's frustrating about it is that they take the form of an instant, initial reaction to things - even if I say, oh no, I shouldn't react that way, I can't change the fact that I reacted that way in the beginning.

Who you are is not set in stone! Don't worry about the crap you hear about talent, genes, etc.

Music is about optimism! You have to be optimistic that you can improve, that you can learn what you want to learn.  You have to believe that you can change who you are. To be a musician is to grow yourself every day. Each day you have to fight against the drive to do nothing, to be lazy, to waste time. Those things will not help you to grow into a bigger, better person. Music will help you!

It is very easy to have an initial reaction to something (often a negative one). It is harder to really understand your reaction, and explore why it was negative. It's good to try and expand your taste... eat healthier food, do more exercise, practice deeper, discover composers you have neglected, learn new skills, etc. I'm not saying we have to have a positive reaction to everything... there's a lot of crap out there (ISIS, Miley Cyrus, Boulez, Monsanto) and you have to cultivate your taste and know what's good and what's bogus. But there's so much stuff I used to think was bogus that I now love very deeply (Baroque music, Classical music, South Park, vegetarian food).

Don't worry about what is 'natural'. Is music natural? I don't care. I just like it, therefore I try to perfect it, every day!

[outin]

there's a lot of crap out there (... Boulez ....) and you have to cultivate your taste and know what's good and what's bogus.

 

[awesom_o]

 

ok, ok, I admit, maybe Boulez didn't deserve to be in the same bracket category as as ISIS and Monsanto.... 

I rather like some of his music!