Wrist weights

[outin]

I made an interesting observation last night.

The physiotherapist told me to get wrist weights so that I can work with my shoulder problems.

So yesterday I though I'd try to play with them (0,5k each) and see how hard that would be. I found out that it's quite the opposite, playing felt quite effortless and I felt it was easier to control my fingers and to to draw deeper sound. I only played for about half an hour, maybe after a longer session my arms would have felt tired.

So either wearing them triggers some positive muscle reactions in my upper arms or I just needed to add a bit of "arm weight" to my skinny limbs

Would it be considered cheating to wear them all the time while playing? 

[dima_76557]

Would it be considered cheating to wear them all the time while playing? 

I think there is another problem that would keep me from doing that: wear and tear on the elbows.

[Bob]

Wrist weights like the leg/ankle weights?  

0.5kg = 1.1 pounds 

[outin]

Wrist weights like the leg/ankle weights?  

0.5kg = 1.1 pounds 

Yes, things that are strapped around the wrists or ankles.

[dima_76557]

Yes, things that are strapped around the wrists or ankles.

If I'm not mistaken, ankle weights tend to mess up your knees. What if there is a parallel with wrist weights?

[outin]

I think there is another problem that would keep me from doing that: wear and tear on the elbows.

My teacher always has to remind me of my "lazy" elbows, they are very reluctant to move up and forward (probably due to the pain I am used to having in my shoulders). I think the weights forced me to move the elbows more and that's part of what helped my playing.

[outin]

If I'm not mistaken, ankle weights tend to mess up your knees. What if there is a parallel with wrist weights?

I wouldn't know, my knees are already messed up and I have never worn any. But anything can be overdone I suppose...

[dima_76557]

I think the weights forced me to move the elbows more and that's part of what helped my playing.

I am not so sure. With your repertoire, I think the real lesson is that your fingers work in an essentially different way; they become more active in accordance with their real function. I am sure N. will have something to say about this. In repertoire where jumps are required, you may actually incur rather serious damage in different places. Anyway, as soon as you learn the lesson to be learned from using them, stop using them.

[outin]

In repertoire where jumps are required, you may actually incur rather serious damage in different places.

Of course one has to be careful when jumping, but I wouldn't crash into the keys uncontrollably anyway because I don't want to break my finger joints.

Anyway, as soon as you learn the lesson to be learned from using them, stop using them.

No worry, I wouldn't really wear them all the time...but I think occasionally would not be harmful.

What I have noticed in general is that the one thing that makes the biggest difference between a good and bad day of playing for me is not the shape of my wrist or fingers but my shoulders. Not only do they often restrict the movement of my arms but they also are a source of  nerve issues in the neck that cause problems with fingers.
My teacher knows this as well, and tries to address the issue but there's little we can do if they are frozen stiff as they sometimes are.

[dima_76557]

@ outin

Everything I said is related to your suffering from joint hypermobility. There are certain things you should do, and there are certain things you had better not do. Wrong habits may contribute to the development of osteoarthritis for which there is no cure as of yet. Just make sure the doctor/therapist agrees with what you are doing. Weight burdens on levers can work very unexpectedly on far-away joints that don't seem related, you know (your neck first of all).

[outin]

@ outin

Everything I said is related to your suffering from joint hypermobility. There are certain things you should do, and there are certain things you had better not do. Wrong habits may contribute to the development of osteoarthritis for which there is no cure as of yet. Just make sure the doctor/therapist agrees with what you are doing. Weight burdens on levers can work very unexpectedly on far-away joints that don't seem related, you know (your neck first of all).

I'll be careful, I promise!
I have an extremely low pain treshold, so I don't tend to hurt myself.

To be honest, if my doctor could decide, I'd just stop playing the piano. And it has brought into surface many underlying issues. But OTOH I wouldn't do all the exercise I do these days if I didn't need to get into better shape for my playing

[hardy_practice]

My guess is that you've discovered how much easier it is to play using arm weight.  I'd replace the weights with your arms!

[dima_76557]

My guess is that you've discovered how much easier it is to play using arm weight.  I'd replace the weights with your arms!

I don't think that is what going on. You can't play the piano and still control your tone if you take "arm weight" literally. What happens is that the weight at the wrist pushes down on the hand structure (very locally, much like Heinrich Neuhaus pushed on the hand arches of his rather famous students!), the key pushes back and the hand/finger structure becomes slightly more solid without her developing tension anywhere in the playing mechanism to "stabilize".

Outin can now move each key slightly more gradually than she used to, which is exactly the timing you need to get richness in tone. Outin's fingers work more effectively with those weights pushing on her hand/finger structure. She should try to mimic that feeling without pushing with her arm down because in arm-pushing, the mechanics are rather different, she'll have to compensate with tension in her wrist, and she won't get the same sound result and fluency either. Correct hand and finger activity, that is the lesson to be learned.

[hardy_practice]

I don't think that is what going on. You can't play the piano and still control your tone if you take "arm weight" literally. What happens is that the weight at the wrist pushes down on the hand structure

That would be useful if the weight was forward of the wrist.  As it is, for the benefit you're describing, the wrist has to hold extra tension - not good.  The point of arm weight is that you can both apply it and take it away.   

[outin]

The benefit of the weights is clearly more from what my muscles do to counter the weight than the weight itself. The question is only which muscles. Not very easy to analyze, it's easier to try to mimic the overall feeling. Will require more sessions though to get permanent results, I forget such things very easily.

[hardy_practice]

I had assumed 'draw deeper sound' was due to the extra weight applied.  N'est pas?

[outin]

I had assumed 'draw deeper sound' was due to the extra weight applied.  N'est pas?

I don't think I expressed it very well. It felt easier to control the sound because my hands and arms seemed more under control and more confident in general. Playing with weights actually felt LIGHTER than playing without them.

I do have a tendency to unconsciously overdo movements. Maybe the weight helps me control that?

I also have weak kinesthetic (muscle) sense and the weight seems to strengthen that to allow for finer control of muscle tension.

At least these are my theories...

[dima_76557]

That would be useful if the weight was forward of the wrist.  As it is, for the benefit you're describing, the wrist has to hold extra tension - not good.

Nothing of the kind. Try it yourself if you come across such weights. Everything behind the hand becomes superlight and loose, tensionless.

[hardy_practice]

Nothing of the kind. Try it yourself if you come across such weights. Everything behind the hand becomes superlight and loose, tensionless.

Surely that's the same with or without weights?  The forearm flexors are quite capable of lifting your body weight (chinups).

[dima_76557]

Surely that's the same with or without weights?  The forearm flexors are quite capable of lifting your body weight (chinups).

I don't think I have the English skills to describe it properly but there's an essential difference with those things on. Try it and see if you can verbalize it for the audience here.

[outin]

Surely that's the same with or without weights?  The forearm flexors are quite capable of lifting your body weight (chinups).

Mine certainly aren't  

[hardy_practice]

I don't think I have the English skills to describe it properly but there's an essential difference with those things on. Try it and see if you can verbalize it for the audience here.

That's alright, I know just the person for verbalizing!

[dima_76557]

That's alright, I know just the person for verbalizing!

I think I know who you mean, and I'm quite sure he'll tell us that what you learn from those weights is NOT to push on our fingers with our arms, which I would personally agree with after having tried them.