Developing hand independence without Bach and sheet music. Any advice is welcome

[musicioso]

Hallo guys, i am back at practicing after a few months, so here come my questions for you guys again!!


I need to develope hand independence, but i am so bad at sight reading, so playing Bach is very frustrating.

So now i need to develope hand independence without Bach and stuff.. Donyou guys have any advice? Any book? Any video? Everything is most welcome

Greeting

[awesom_o]

Juggling is a great way to develop hand independence that doesn't require Bach, sheet music, or even a piano!

[musicioso]

Juggling is a great way to develop hand independence that doesn't require Bach, sheet music, or even a piano!

I would appreciate your joke if you also had a serious reply with it.

Come on, why you people so bad? Why is the whole world joking about me and my things???

You know what...leave it..i wont visit this forum ever again.. And maybe i will quit the whole piano sh*t.

You sir have a nice day/evening

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I strongly suspect he's NOT joking.

Anyway, if you want another suggestion, try playing waltz rhythm in the left hand, and 4/4 in the right (both at the same tempo, so your second left hand bar starts at the same time as the fourth beat of the first right hand bar, etc).

[awesom_o]

Come on, why you people so bad? Why is the whole world joking about me and my things???

I wasn't joking... and I'm definitely not bad. Many people, in fact, consider my work to be quite good!

Juggling is really good for hand independence!

 

[musicioso]

I strongly suspect he's NOT joking.

Anyway, if you want another suggestion, try playing waltz rhythm in the left hand, and 4/4 in the right (both at the same tempo, so your second left hand bar starts at the same time as the fourth beat of the first right hand bar, etc).

Thaks!! Welll this is a good advice. I will try that. Much much appreciated!!

[musicioso]

I wasn't joking... and I'm definitely not bad. Many people, in fact, consider my work to be quite good!

Juggling is really good for hand independence!

 

Very funny!

Ok, bye

[awesom_o]

Ok, bye

See you later, alligator! 

[rmbarbosa]

There is an old method of piano, named Schmoll, where you may learn piano technic and some theorie since de beggining to more advanced level.
Bach is wonderfull indeed but only after one has some has already some principles... with Schmoll (or Schmall? I dont remember...) everyting is very easy and in progression.
You may wish to have a look in the net.
Besty wishes
Rui

[cwjalex]

i first learned piano without any sheet music or bach and my suggestion is go slow...really slow.  like at first, pieces i chose where each hand is doing something different was difficult and i just took it at a disgustingly slow speed.  i have no idea the merit of this but it is what worked for me.  good luck.

[philolog]

You might try improvising, first with one hand, than the other. Trying to play what you imagine could stretch your technique. Also, do the same with both hands together. I sometime tell students to play anything at all, no matter how terrible they find the result, just to improve their kinesthetic feeling for the keyboard.

If you're concerned with finger independence, as opposed to "hand independence" (I'm not sure of the difference unless you use the hand as a non-differntiated unit), good old Hanon has something to offer, even though he has his detractors. Once you've read the first bar or two of any exercise there's no need to suffer with poor sight reading until you move on to the next.

Scales, of course, are great for developing facility independently of a score, although I agree with those who say they should be practiced in a musical way.

[quantum]

Playing piano involves the whole body, not just arms and fingers.  Take awesom_o's suggestion seriously.  In university we did a lot of this body juggling to learn coordination and independence.  Things like marching in 2, left hand in 3, right hand in 4, while selectively counting one of those patterns.  

Running away from your weaknesses will not serve you well.  You won't get better at sight reading by trying to avoid it while doing something else.  You need to persevere through the hurdle.  Work on sight reading all the while you are developing all of your other playing skills.  You don't want to be stonewalled by having your playing skills move forward while your reading gets left behind.

Take reasonable sections of music to practice independence at the piano.  You don't need to play whole pieces.  Set small goals that are achievable in short periods of time.  You can even tackle parts of Bach like this.  It may be something as simple as 4 bars of x piece at a slow tempo.  

[1piano4joe]

Hi musicioso,

"Developing" is a great way of putting it since hand independence includes so many different skill sets. I have been DEVELOPING hand independence for years. I often feel I will never master it. Maybe it's a lifelong pursuit? I don't know.


Here is some of the advice you were looking for:

     1. Scales and Arpeggios in CONTRARY motion. Specifically, the ASYMMETRICAL ones!
     2. What seems difficult at first WILL get easier with REPETITION!
     3. Practice SLOWLY without any mistakes.
     4. Scales in PARALLEL motion. Legato in one hand and staccato in the other. Then switch!
     5. Scales 8th notes in one hand and triplets in the other. Then switch!

Get the idea? The hands are doing two DIFFERENT things simultaneously. They really, really don't like to do that.

The DIFFERENCES above are just the tip of the iceberg but enough to get the ball rolling.

What are those differences? They are different fingerings, different rhythms and different articulations.

How about scales in one hand "Piano" and "Forte" in the other. Then of course ALWAYS switch parts.

Also, I would recommend some easier two part inventions that are NOT Bach! There is one called, "The teapot invention" in RCM Grade 1 and several others. I highly, highly recommend you check these out.

Start with "Jumping Jacks" by Andrew Markow which is an invention then "Minuetto" by James Hook which is contrapuntal. These two are from RCM Preparatory level and are even easier still. Everybody has to start somewhere, right?

Afterwards, there are seven more inventions in RCM level 1 and another eight in level 2. I found these absolutely a pleasure to play. It was so, so cool. I felt 40 years younger. I was developing hand independence and enjoying it. It doesn't get much better than that.

Anyway, I am doing ALL of them. I just need to that's all. Yes, they were very, very hard in the beginning. Strangely, they LOOK so simple but they are not. So, even though I play several easier Chopin preludes, waltzes and other more advanced ROMANTIC stuff, this baby stuff just killed me at first but I eventually got the hang of it and you can too!

Hope I have been helpful, Joe.

P.S. After doing these I am now having SOME success with Bach Invention No. 4 in d minor! How awesome is that?
 

[hfmadopter]

I think the OP really did leave, seems over sensitive. Anyway I was going to suggest scales, playing block chord in one hand and scale in the other then switch. Also, do some sight reading, back up in repertoire a little bit. Bach is good but it doesn't have to be Bach. Added to that try simple arrangements and add some fill notes, you need to get the mind and physical coordination working in multiples and divisions.

People really don't get that you don't absolutely have to be at a piano to advance playing skills or to condition yourself while away from the piano. Most of us work and can't be at the piano all day long ( though I am retired now, as of Friday noon time) and still you can find ways to exercise pianistically. I would work out fingering and runs on my desk top for instance. You can do wrist stretches, curls and rolls. I saw a tutorial one time ( youtube) where a guy had developed a routine of rolling his hand over his finger tips to train the wrist and keep everything limber while away from the piano. All that was required is a flat surface and proper frame of mind.

If proper playing of piano and advancing skills at piano ( mind and body) helps us with clarity in other aspects of our lives, they why not the reverse. Is it not possible ? As the piano becomes more and more integrated into our lives, then why not many things we do be related at and away from the keyboard. Juggling suddenly may not be such a joke then.

[ignaceii]

Just play Bach. Best school of piano there is. If you cannot do that, leave the instrument, it is not for you.