Do you live in Japan?

[dima_76557]

why don't you read all the comments i posted above?  those are real life stories.  there's also a few comments from japanese people saying how they don't want foreigners in their country.

A person writing in his own name is more reliable to me than a flock of whoever, populating certain sites and hiding behind nicknames. I hope you can understand that.

what about all the news articles talking about the racism?  you ignore those as well?

What else can I do within the storm of media wars that is raging all over the place about virtually anything, including the lies about my own country that are being spread all over the world? How can I possibly regard any "articles" as reliable evidence anymore? I really don't want to draw this into politics. I am interested only in real-life experiences of real humans with a real name and without any hidden political agendas.

[cwjalex]

so dima so you don't believe all those stories of racism i posted above?  what's the difference between them and someone posting a video of their story?  how are you to know that they are telling the truth any more than someone writing a comment?

@ outin-
"Referring to the other thread, it would greatly help me to make an objective assessment of the proposed method, if some results were available to be scrutinized."

are you saying you want to hear me play?

[dima_76557]

so dima so you don't believe all those stories of racism i posted above?  what's the difference between them and someone posting a video of their story?  how are you to know that they are telling the truth any more than someone writing a comment?

A real person who doesn't hide behind anything will have my trust a little bit more than an anonymous person writing on an Internet blog, yes. That's an essential difference.

However, even if you can find such a real-life story in a clip on YouTube (there must be some negative stories too, I guess), it still won't prove that this is 1) "racism" and that this is 2) something systematic within the Japanese culture.

There are simply too many positive experiences (including my own) to keep someone from going there. But hey, maybe I'm just naive?

[dima_76557]

@ cwjalex

Here is a clip by a person I trust because he is kind of an authority to me: Luke Holloway from Australia, the founder of Raw Combat International. I think he gives a pretty objective picture of the types of "racism" (is it that really?) one *could* face. I hope you will be enough sports to also catch that much of what (some) people experience over there has roots that are not directly related to the Japanese themselves:

[cwjalex]

okay i watched the video and i don't know how you can question the things he describes as racist.  not being able to get an apartment because it says "no foreigners" is about as racist as you can get.  he said a guy walked up to him and spit on the ground and said "it stinks like foreigners here".  whenever he rides public transportation people move away from him and don't occupy the seat next to him which is something i have heard a lot of people say. 

towards the end of the video he said that he's heard it's worse for asians and blacks but he thinks its bullshit and that racism is all the same no matter what color your skin is.  that is complete garbage.  of course it matters what color your skin is.  i live in the united states as an asian american and i am not about to say that racism against me is the same as if i were a black man.  it totally matters what color your skin is and you have to keep in mind that guy only has experiences of a white man in japan that can speak english, has a half japanese daughter, and owns a business.  are you about to say that he experiences the same racism as a single black man who just moved there and isn't fluent in japanese? 

[outin]

@ outin-
"Referring to the other thread, it would greatly help me to make an objective assessment of the proposed method, if some results were available to be scrutinized."

are you saying you want to hear me play?

Yes, that would greatly help me assess how well it has worked for you. Not because I generally suspect people or you specificly, but because I have seen quite a few others who have used that method "advance" in a way that does not seem very useful for long term progress.

[dima_76557]

okay i watched the video and i don't know how you can question the things he describes as racist.  not being able to get an apartment because it says "no foreigners" is about as racist as you can get.

 

You must have missed the point where he states that many foreigners before him spoiled the situation for all the foreigners after them. He uses pretty strong language to express that idea, words which I don't feel like repeating here.

he said a guy walked up to him and spit on the ground and said "it stinks like foreigners here".

Does 1 lunatic represent a whole nation? Really?  

whenever he rides public transportation people move away from him and don't occupy the seat next to him which is something i have heard a lot of people say.

I am pretty tall myself (six foot six). Haven't had that kind of experience, though, but then I never sit on the train when there are Japanese people around standing, especially elderly people you know. Could try it some time to see what it is like.
P.S.: Still, can you call that "racism"?

towards the end of the video he said that he's heard it's worse for asians and blacks

"He has heard", but I am not particularly interested in hearsay actually. I like to see context and real situations. As I said before, there are numerous clips on YouTube with black and Asian people of all kinds who deny they have ever been treated in a racist way.

it totally matters what color your skin is and you have to keep in mind that guy only has experiences of a white man in japan that can speak english, has a half japanese daughter, and owns a business.  are you about to say that he experiences the same racism as a single black man who just moved there and isn't fluent in japanese?

I think that anyone who goes to some exotic country (as a tourist even) who has not taken the trouble to learn the language and find out about what is culturally acceptable there is bound to walk into trouble some day. Question: can what he/she may experience there because of that be labeled as "racism"?

[cwjalex]

@outin - okay i'll record what i have learned most recently when i get a chance.  keep in mind i have been playing piano for a little over a year. by the way, what do you mean you have seen people advance in a way that does not seem useful for long term progress?

@dima,  you can rationalize all you want and refer to any history but the fact remains that "no foreigners" in regards to getting an apartment or getting a job is the very definition of racism.

having people move away from you on the train may not be racist but it sure is xenophobic behavior.  i actually think that video you linked supports my position.  you say there are plenty of clips of blacks and asians who haven't experienced racism but i can find plenty that do experience it.  

[dima_76557]

@dima,  you can rationalize all you want and refer to any history but the fact remains that "no foreigners" in regards to getting an apartment or getting a job is the very definition of racism.

First of all, the Japanese suffer themselves from the apartment renting system because you need a guarantor to be able to rent anything. Where is a foreigner going to find such a guarantor unless they have a miss/mrs who is Japanese? It's clear that the common people simply want to avoid language problems, false promises, etc. etc.

About not getting a job: that's BS as far as I was told but there may be limitations for certain kinds of jobs. Usually, if a foreigner can fulfill a job that a resident can't do equally well, you'll get hired. I'll see what I can do with the "evidence" for that statement.

[outin]

the fact remains that "no foreigners" in regards to getting an apartment or getting a job is the very definition of racism.

Actually not really. Do look up the definition of racism again.
What you describe is discrimination.

[cwjalex]

Actually not really. Do look up the definition of racism again.
What you describe is discrimination.

discrimination based on racism.  you are arguing semantics.

also, if im going to record something can you record something as well?

[dima_76557]

discrimination based on racism.  you are arguing semantics

How about "discrimination based on juridical (legal?) status" which you will find virtually everywhere in the world?

[outin]

discrimination based on racism.  you are arguing semantics.

It's not semantics at all. Discrimination may or may not be based on racism. "Foreign" is not a race, neither is it an ethnicity.

also, if im going to record something can you record something as well?

Why? It's not me who is saying one should play advanced piano literature with less than one year of study. I could post some recordings I made at that point, but they certainly would be no pleasure to anyone's ear 

[cwjalex]

Why? It's not me who is saying one should play advanced piano literature with less than one year of study. I could post some recordings I made at that point, but they certainly would be no pleasure to anyone's ear  

because i know already you are going to be extremely critical and would like to know what level your current playing is at.  you don't need to post a recording yourself at 1 year, post something current.  your criticism will have more weight and credibility if are a good player.

also, do you consider mozarts k310 advanced piano literature?  it is what i am currently working on

[outin]

because i know already you are going to be extremely critical

Obviously you know very little of me. I'm not at all critical of other people's playing. But I am very critical of my own. My level of playing is very far from satisfactory, which is why I don't post recordings here. I concentrate on building a good foundation with my teacher hoping to one day achieve something I could consider worthy of listening.

I am not a fan of Mozart, so don't know much about his sonatas. You referred to some advanced piano literature in your other posts.

BTW. I don't care about the "level" of pieces people play, only the "level" they play them.

[cwjalex]

Obviously you know very little of me. I'm not at all critical of other people's playing. But I am very critical of my own. My level of playing is very far from satisfactory, which is why I don't post recordings here. I concentrate on building a good foundation with my teacher hoping to one day achieve something I could consider worthy of listening.

i am also critical of my own playing and find my own level is too far from satisfactory.  i just don't see what the point of listening to me play an advanced piece?  obviously it's not going to be at professional concert level.  also, is k310 considered advance to you?

[outin]

i am also critical of my own playing and find my own level is too far from satisfactory.  i just don't see what the point of listening to me play an advanced piece?  obviously it's not going to be at professional concert level.  also, is k310 considered advance to you?

See  my answer above...

[cwjalex]

See  my answer above...

when i typed that you didn't  have that later section typed.  you argue that someone who has been playing a year should not tackle advanced repertoire so i need to know if you think it falls under the category that you are against.

[stringoverstrung]

i am also critical of my own playing and find my own level is too far from satisfactory.  i just don't see what the point of listening to me play an advanced piece?  obviously it's not going to be at professional concert level.  also, is k310 considered advance to you?

K310 is certainly music of a very high level and anyone (or certainly most of us) who have tried to polish a Mozart Sonata knows what level you need for that. It certainly isn't obvious.

see also a recent message from j_menz:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=56291.msg606842#msg606842

[dima_76557]

also, do you consider mozarts k310 advanced piano literature?  it is what i am currently working on

May I, cwjalex?

Technically and formally, it's "early advanced". Still, not something anybody would expect after one year of training (whatever training) because it tends to reveal lack of a good pianistic foundation if you haven't had a very strong "schooling".

As for the artistic end result: personally, I'd rather do something wild by Liszt or Rachmaninoff than anything by Mozart. Kuddos for even trying!

P.S.: You should make a recording only when and as soon as YOU feel you're ready for it, not before.

[cwjalex]

yeah i haven't even finished learning the whole thing so i probably won't record it for another week or so but outin requested to hear me play as evidence of how people progress that consistently chose difficult repertoire from the beginning.  echoing what a lot of other people say this particular sonata isn't that physically difficult to play but it's difficult getting it to sound great.  anyways i told outin i would record it so i will.

[stringoverstrung]

when i typed that you didn't  have that later section typed.  you argue that someone who has been playing a year should not tackle advanced repertoire so i need to know if you think it falls under the category that you are against.

Maybe some people are just trying to get a point across. This should not be considered arguing. In the same line of thought being against something might mean something else to some people then what it means to you.

[cwjalex]

Maybe some people are just trying to get a point across. This should not be considered arguing. In the same line of thought being against something might mean something else to some people then what it means to you.

this argument was largely held in another thread and somehow bled into this one.  in it i suggested someone starting out that it's good to try and play pieces that are beyond your technical ability to stretch your limits and outin held the position that this was a bad idea and can lead to bad habits. then she challenged to hear me play since i said that this method worked for me and for playing a year i have advanced farther than what most people would expect for that time period

[outin]

when i typed that you didn't  have that later section typed.  you argue that someone who has been playing a year should not tackle advanced repertoire so i need to know if you think it falls under the category that you are against.

I missed your question so I modified my response. That can be a confusing sometimes, sorry.

I think I should clarify: I am very sceptical that it is a good way to enter piano studies by starting with things that are considered difficult even by seasoned pianists. I know many people do it, but most will realize at some point it wasn't such a good idea. I am only curious if you have managed to do that and still build some foundation for further studies. I don't need to hear you play anything advanced, the general level of playing is usually obvious no matter what one plays.

I guess it doesn't make me less sceptical that you don't seem to assess difficulty of pieces the same way as those I know can play them (referring to what you wrote about a Chopin etude in that other thread). Sorry to be blunt, but the fact that a piece of that level "does not seem that difficult" after playing the piano for a year and you "prefer playing pieces that are considered ridiculously hard" would either suggest you are a rare talent or that you don't really know what you are doing.

[outin]

 in it i suggested someone starting out that it's good to try and play pieces that are beyond your technical ability to stretch your limits and outin held the position that this was a bad idea and can lead to bad habits.

May I correct that I agree that it is good to strech one's limits, but in a reasonable way. A beginner learning La Campanella just isn't reasonable IMO.

[stringoverstrung]

I know. I read this. I think Outin is right. Actually you should challenge yourself but the hard part of this is to know - certainly as a beginner - what is the right level to challenge yourself. And if you miss it bad habits will get engrained. And as you certainly know for your motoric learning there is no way back. Once it is in there it will take a hell of a lot of work to get it out of your system if ever.
So for example: ask yourself: are the runs with sixteenth notes even (in rhythmic value and sound evenness) or not? If not why is this? What am I doing wrong? If you can't solve that you must get help or figure it out really quickly before it is in your muscular memory or you actually will loose much more time later to get it out again and it will be never as good as when doing it right the first time.
But then again this is another thread.

[cwjalex]

a lot of those bad habits can form learning a piece of any difficulty.  if a beginner tackles an advanced piece they are going to have to approach it at a ridiculously slow speed so the fact that it's difficult at tempo really doesn't matter much since it is learned at snail's speed anyway.

i also don't see anything wrong with a beginner trying to tackle la campanella.  obviously they won't be able to play it but i don't see the harm.

[cwjalex]

but the fact that a piece of that level "does not seem that difficult" after playing the piano for a year and you "prefer playing pieces that are considered ridiculously hard" would either suggest you are a rare talent or that you don't really know what you are doing.

i guess you will know once you hear me play right?

[outin]

i guess you will know once you hear me play right?

I certainly hope for the former, since there's never too much talent around

[stringoverstrung]

i also don't see anything wrong with a beginner trying to tackle la campanella.  obviously they won't be able to play it but i don't see the harm.

What is wrong with that is that it will do more harm then good to your playing. In piano playing you just create bad habits. Consider racing or flying a jet fighter: if you step above your level it will kill you. That's what is wrong with that. Only in piano playing the effects are less obvious to you. But is still bad.

[outin]

this particular sonata isn't that physically difficult to play but it's difficult getting it to sound great. 

This type of thinking is strange to me. Maybe because when I started lessons with my present teacher she made it very clear that if I want to sound great I need to learn the right physical movements. So the difficulties are always physical as well as mental. Maybe not at first but after a while I understood how right she was...

[cwjalex]

This type of thinking is strange to me. Maybe because when I started lessons with my present teacher she made it very clear that if I want to sound great I need to learn the right physical movements. So the difficulties are always physical as well as mental. Maybe not at first but after a while I understood how right she was...

when i say it's not that physically difficult i mean it's not hard to just hit the correct notes at the correct tempo.

@stringoverstrung.  i know what you're saying but that is one of the worst analogies to piano playing ive ever seen.

[stringoverstrung]

@stringoverstrung.  i know what you're saying but that is one of the worst analogies to piano playing ive ever seen.

I was just trying to find an analogy so that you would understand what I am saying. So I'm glad you know what I'm saying. Seriously you should cherish not having bad habits yet. It is deadly to have them. 

[cwjalex]

I was just trying to find an analogy so that you would understand what I am saying. So I'm glad you know what I'm saying. Seriously you should cherish not having bad habits yet. It is deadly to have them. 

i had played piano for about 6 months without taking lessons and i actually did form some bad habits but they didn't have anything to do with playing difficult repertoire.  my main bad habits were that my left hand was too loud and that i didn't pay attention to dynamic markings and slurs and ties.

[stringoverstrung]

i had played piano for about 6 months without taking lessons and i actually did form some bad habits but they didn't have anything to do with playing difficult repertoire.  my main bad habits were that my left hand was too loud and that i didn't pay attention to dynamic markings and slurs and ties.

No you are right bad habits will form no matter what I guess. The most important thing is to pay attention to it all the time. So I think what is very important to understand is to look for music that is of the highest quality musically but that is of a technical level that is manageable for you.

I think it is well formulated by Andras Schiff in one of his lectures on Piano Sonata Op 49 no 1:

listen to 4:24 and especially to what he is saying at 5:20 and onwards ( upon 6:20)

This guy can not be accused of not knowing what he is talking about. So you can put this Beethoven Sonata on your list in a year to a few years time

[outin]

i had played piano for about 6 months without taking lessons and i actually did form some bad habits but they didn't have anything to do with playing difficult repertoire.  my main bad habits were that my left hand was too loud and that i didn't pay attention to dynamic markings and slurs and ties.

Often when people refer to bad habits they refer to movements that are either inefficient in producing proper sound or creating unnecessary tension that is harmful in the long run. These are not something you would necessarily notice yourself at all, at least not until you start getting physical problems with you playing. To play without extra tension and to create the best sound usually requires a lot of practice and it's best done on music that is not too fast or too complicated. You do not play fast music the same way as you play slower music, so just practicing the fast pieces extremely slow is not necessarily helping you learn the correct movements.

[thorn]

Back to Japan...

It's a particular sort of attitude that Japanese don't like, rather than "foreigners". They don't like being exotic artifacts neatly packaged and sold to the West.

My friend once said "most people don't see us as a person- they just want help with Japanese, they want things translating for them, they think we're superficially polite and one dimensional" I can completely see what makes her feel like that.

I don't think it's foreigners in itself they take issue with. Here's a video from the other side of the coin.

Other things to be aware of...
When you go to Japan you ARE an outsider and there is nothing any Japanese person can do to change that. Some people talk as if they want to go to Japan and become Japanese overnight and will accept nothing less.

Japanese people think Japanese is a difficult language to learn. So what you might interpret as dismissal or being patronised when you get the inevitable "your Japanese is really good" when you've only said good morning is not that at all. Don't take it personally. The entire Japanese language education industry works off the assumption that it's a hard language. The JLPT N1 (the highest Japanese language qualification you can get) is only equivalent to the sort of standard you'd need to access an undergraduate degree in say a European language. Graduates in Japanese I know can only just pass the N2 (the level below). I have the N1 and only consider myself to have built the foundations.

Don't take children staring at you personally either. It's because you look different and they want to know what you are, no more no less. When I was a child the UK was less diverse than it is now and we had two Yemeni students in our class. I imagine we all stared at them too and the word 'paki' was probably thrown around quite a lot. Children don't usually use those words with the same nuance as an adult and they just need to be corrected. In Japan's case the more foreigners that do go there, the more educated children will be towards things outside Japan.

I'm currently in the process of applying to go and teach in Japan for that exact reason