Waldstein First Movement Left Hand Runs in Coda Section

[daggenhurstfan]

Hey all!

I'm polishing up the Waldstein and have been experimenting with some different fingerings for bars 272-274.

I've found that less movement I have in the thumb at tempo, the cleaner it becomes, when I first learned the piece.. I followed the recommended (though clunky) 5(grace note) 1-2-3-1-2

This does not sound great. And i've recently become smitten with Schenker's suggestion of 5(g.n) 2 1-2-3-4 which works so nicely

But i've also seen that older folks such as Bülow suggest using a straight run of 1-2-3-4-5, though this can get mushy at speeds

what do you guys use?

thanks in advance

[jlskiles]

I stick with 5(gn) - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2  because thats what Schnabel uses. Like everything, you just have to practice it a lot to smooth it out.

[j_menz]

It seems to me the main concern is getting from the bottom of each run to the next grace note.

12345 doesn't strike me as risking mush so much as a potentially difficult to control leap, leaving either a pause or a crash landing.

If that isn't an issue for you then you have that option, otherwise you need to do something with the thumb and your options seem to me to be better determined by which results in the more manageable reach down to the next grace note. Shenker's suggestion is fine if 4-5 is OK for you, otherwise your original option gives 2-5 and may be better, particularly for smaller hands.

Shenker also has a "cheat" for this particular passage, which works fine if you pedal it, and overcomes both the thumb and leap issues.

[pts1]

There is a bit of a trick to this passage that makes it very playable.

I use 1-2-3-1-2

Using the first LH passage as an example, A,G,F,E,D (the D played with 2nd finger), my hand is already slightly turned, my 5th finger lightly resting on the next grace note G, and my hand opening, the thumb reaching toward the B above (span of a 10th)

By training this way, I virtually eliminate jumps and reaching the 10th from the lower grace note is a mere slight rotation.

IOW, I am virtually ON THE KEY before I play.

Doing it this way, 12312 is the only workable fingering, but you have to train until what I describe is automatic... then you will find the passage becomes relatively easy.

[bobert]

I would play all the leaps 5-1, lifting the thumb at the end of the quarter note to play the descending 16th's 1-2-3-4.  This lift, barely perceptible, would actually help separate and slightly impulse the descending 16th groups.  

The primary notes in this sequence are the sf quarters, which need to be played with utmost clarity and zero smearing, while the following descending 16th's need to be rather even.  Try practicing the passage with the above fingering without the grace notes to help get the feel for the clean sf quarters and even 16ths.  Then go back and add the grace notes.

[daggenhurstfan]

Thanks for all the helpful responses! I'm going to spend some time experimenting with all of them though my guy tells me to land on 2 off of the grace notes, which will help to outline the ascending quarter notes

[chrisbutch]

A lot depends on whether you choose to play the grace note on or before the beat, with current scholarship (Cooper etc) apparently preferring the former as more idiomatic for all periods of Beethoven, rather than changing during his lifetime as was previously accepted.