2nd finger, left hand

[pianoman53]

Hi all,


I've played Images for some time now. I can't play the left hand evenly, so I tried to just check a normal arpeggio (c-g-e-c-e-g-c), and my second finger gets stuck, and really pushes the key down. I'm getting a bit worried about it, because I really can't play it evenly, in a fast tempo.

Do any of you know what the problem might be, and how to fix it?

[dima_76557]

Hi all,


I've played Images for some time now. I can't play the left hand evenly, so I tried to just check a normal arpeggio (c-g-e-c-e-g-c), and my second finger gets stuck, and really pushes the key down. I'm getting a bit worried about it, because I really can't play it evenly, in a fast tempo.

Do any of you know what the problem might be, and how to fix it?

Have you tried "mirroring" that passage with your right hand? (this will be an A minor arpeggio in the reverse direction - c becomes e, e becomes c, and g becomes a). If the right hand does it well, your left hand will learn from that.

[pianoman53]

Have you tried "mirroring" that passage with your right hand? (this will be an A minor arpeggio in the reverse direction - c becomes e, e becomes c, and g becomes a). If the right hand does it well, your left hand will learn from that.

Yes, I've tried. And it works well in slowish tempo. but ones it gets to fast tempo, my second finger gets stuck, and my third finger start to sort of spasm, and lose contact with the key

[dima_76557]

Yes, I've tried. And it works well in slowish tempo. but ones it gets to fast tempo, my second finger gets stuck, and my third finger start to sort of spasm, and lose contact with the key

Technically, it sounds to me like a problem with the thumb. Also, in the C major arpeggio you describe (it's descending, right?), I personally prefer 4, not 3. Makes a lot of difference.

Do you use "thumb under" or "thumb over"? Even if you use the latter, I would advise you to try thumb under first, very slowly with perfect legato and with full concentration on the musical line you want to create. The arm should always be behind the finger that plays to feel comfortable balance.

Slow playing, but very quick preparation, of course. Actually, the index finger should touch its key already (before playing it) as a result of sounding the thumb. As soon as you get that correct, you can try a more portato approach to make the structures more transparent. Don't think of speed. Think of the ultimate sound result.

[ted]

Whatever the cause or possible remedy, I would be very careful with that if I were you. I had a similar problem, with the same finger as it happens. It suddenly became worse, upset the balance of the whole hand and ended up taking me four years and a huge amount of discipline to get rid of. In retrospect, my trying to force it to come right compounded the problem. 

[pianoman53]

Dima- I play 1 2 3 5 3 2 1, so not going under with thumb. It's the same as third movement of image.  C f g d g f, in fast triplets.

Ted- I'm worried about it... How did you fix it?

[dima_76557]

Dima- I play 1 2 3 5 3 2 1, so not going under with thumb. It's the same as third movement of image.  C f g d g f, in fast triplets.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about arpeggios over several octaves.
You are talking about the figure in the left hand in the image I attached? If not, please show the note fragment because I haven't played Images myself.

In that case, there are two tunnels you have to dig:
1) make sure that you can do a slow trill with forearm rotation freely with each finger combination (1-2, 1-3, 1-5; 2-3, 2-5; and 3-5)
2) activate fingertips, "weighing" the keys with minimal energy, ppp, each key twice with each finger, staying on the surface of the key and relax immediately as you hear sound (key comes up).
P.S.: Everything (both forearm rotation and fingertapping) as s-l-o-w-l-y as possible and wait a couple of days for the result to come. Do not "try" too soon to check if it "works", otherwise you will fall back into your old habits!

[pianoman53]

yes, that spot, and the similar ones.

So far, I pretty much only practice it slowly. fast occationally, but stops as soon as this "tension" begins, but I'll skip the fast part until monday or tuesday then.

Thanks for the advice

[dima_76557]

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[pianoman53]

I remember having the same type of problem in the beginning of the revolutionary etude, but it somehow worked out, as I recall it.

Now I just got simply fed up with having a technical difficulty, about something that shouldn't be difficult.

[pianoman53]

I went full taubman, and rotate a lot, and it now works quite well. It's soft, and clear. Thanks for your help

[louispodesta]

Hi all,


I've played Images for some time now. I can't play the left hand evenly, so I tried to just check a normal arpeggio (c-g-e-c-e-g-c), and my second finger gets stuck, and really pushes the key down. I'm getting a bit worried about it, because I really can't play it evenly, in a fast tempo.

Do any of you know what the problem might be, and how to fix it?

As a pianist philosopher, I do not care so much of what your problem (not "issue') is with your forefinger of the left hand.  What I do focus on is how to fix it.

After that is done, then you can review everything you do with that hand to see how you got there in the first place.  This is so you do not repeat the same mistake.

Accordingly, I will share with you my long past experience regarding tactile feel.  It was warmly received by "pts1," whose teacher taught him/her the same technique.  I genuinely hope it helps

Prior Post
My late piano teacher, Robert Weaver, taught all of his students to practice a simple five finger routine.  Starting from middle C in the right hand (with an octave below, left hand) this involved playing 1-5, in both hands, up and down.

Most importantly, it had to be done with the fingers resting on the keytops, AT ALL TIMES, while playing a very soft staccato (1 staccato, 2 staccato, etc.).  Also, there is no reason that this cannot be transposed (alla Chopin) to the entire scale, as one exercise.

Parenthetically, Glenn Gould used to espouse something similar called "Tapping."  This is nowhere near the same thing.

However, what this soft staccato practice does is to develop finger independence without doing all of the abnormal, and bizarre exercises that tell you to lift up your fingers.

Earl Wild, in is memoir, talks about how Egon Petri taught him at the age of fourteen to always play and strike a key with your fingers resting on the top of the key.

Recently, I have taken this concept to a new level which is predicated on what Rachmaninoff taught his students.  However, I will leave it there for now.

So, try the five finger soft staccato routine for now (slowly) and then see how it translates to your overall tactile experience at the piano.

Accordingly, if you cannot play a particular passage in a piece, drop down an play the same passage in soft slow staccato.  If you cannot hit the notes that way, then there is no way you will be able to do it normally.

Arm weight, rotation, and the rest of it, means nothing if you do not have a normal resting tactile feel on the keys, in my opinion.

[j_menz]

Parenthetically, Glenn Gould used to espouse something similar called "Tapping."  This is nowhere near the same thing.

Similar but yet somehow nowhere near the same?

You are going to have to explain (unless you just wanted to demonstrate you had heard of Gould  ).

[dima_76557]

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[louispodesta]

I went full taubman, and rotate a lot, and it now works quite well. It's soft, and clear. Thanks for your help

Now, that you have specifically identified the piece, which is entitled "au Movement," I totally concur with the Taubman fix.  Next time, please quantify and qualify/define your parameters, which includes the name of the piece.

The Image is two books!

Good luck to you.

[j_menz]

Now, that you have specifically identified the piece, which is entitled "au Movement," I totally concur with the Taubman fix.  Next time, please quantify and qualify/define your parameters, which includes the name of the piece.

The Image is two books!

Good luck to you.

Since he identified the piece two days and several posts prior to your original "contribution", it seems somewhat strange that you should criticise him for not doing so earlier.