sexism in music

[mikeowski]

Since when were there actually gender quotas in women's favour? The only ones I've ever encountered in real life were ones in the other direction.

Some people on this forum inhabit a very strange world.  Where it's OK to launch tirades of sexist abuse at women but claim that men are the ones who suffer discrimination.

You've never heard about something like this: https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/03/economist-explains-14?

And tirades of sexist abuse? What? I hope you don't have PTSD now, like this poor woman...

[jknott]

What?  Your point is?  I was referring to the sexist abuse of female pianists in this thread.

But I've already been flamed once for daring to challenge the bigotry on this forum.  So this kind of behaviour is hardly unexpeted.

[mhhudson15]

Oh, so working and dying is an oppression? This seriously reminds me of a child's response to school and homework. Puberty obviously forgot to hit your head. Also, may I remind you that everyone, not just men, face imminent death.

[j_menz]

Also, may I remind you that everyone, not just men, face imminent death.

Imminent? 

Is there something we aren't being told?

[cwjalex]

Imminent? 

Is there something we aren't being told?

haven't you heard?  an asteroid the size of canada is about to crash into earth and pulverize everything into oblivion.

[j_menz]

haven't you heard?  an asteroid the size of canada is about to crash into earth and pulverize everything into oblivion.

News to me. Apparently also news to NASA. I think I'll still think about what to have for dinner.

[mhhudson15]

I tell the hard truth about the future of the earth, the truth that NASA doesn't want us to know. Cook a good hot meal tonight, and enjoy it.

[Beethoven's Fifth begins to play ]

[j_menz]

[Beethoven's Fifth begins to play ]

That's a terrible movie. I'm not being exterminated watching that!

[mhhudson15]

Right, and if you tell that to the asteroid, I'm sure it will understand. While you try that, I have a large bucket list to accomplish-- Carnegie Hall, here I come!

And instead of watching that silly movie, watch the spontaneous recital I give. It should be interesting.

[thalbergmad]

Well, and in terms of being forced to do hard work and dying, men have been systemically opressed since the beginning of time.

Indeed, but women seem to strangely forget this.They want equality when it comes to high powered jobs, be on board of directors, run multinational companies, but they don't want it to become toilet cleaners or road sweepers.

If they don't get what they want there is always some politically correct twat that decides they haven't got enough women in any particular role and they will get it at the expense of men who are far more suitable. That is the evil of positive discrimination.

Thal

[j_menz]

If they don't get what they want there is always some politically correct twat that decides they haven't got enough women in any particular role and they will get it at the expense of men who are far more suitable.

So what woman has your dream job?

[thalbergmad]

Sad when it's supposed to be about piano.

We seem to be in the anything but piano section of the forum, so it is not supposed to be about anything.

The person who started this thread appears to have an axe to grind and perhaps should have waited more than 5 minutes after joining before starting such a thread.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

So what woman has your dream job?

None at the moment, but I have been passed over for promotion so some dickweed manager could fulfill a "quota".

Thal

[j_menz]

None at the moment

I'm disappointed. Somehow I was expecting you to answer "Beyoncé". 

[jknott]

I just find it sad that pianists are such bigots and are rude to anyone who doesn't subscribe to their world view. 

[chopincat]

The person who started this thread appears to have an axe to grind and perhaps should have waited more than 5 minutes after joining before starting such a thread.

Umm.... I have an axe to grind?? You're the one who is just being close-minded and not listening to what everyone else is saying. I just wanted to start a discussion about gender and music, and a very interesting one was happening until people like you showed up.

For your information, I didn't start this thread even remotely close to five minutes after joining. But if the fact that I'm new here bothers you, then why are you even commenting on this thread anyway??

[chopincat]

they don't want it to become toilet cleaners or road sweepers.

Of course women don't want to be toilet cleaners or road sweepers... neither do men!! And I really don't see how toilet cleaning and road sweeping is an example of men being "forced to do hard work," because the people who have these jobs (many of which are female anyway) chose to take them, even if it wasn't their ideal job (or at least that's how it works in the majority of countries). It isn't forced labour.

[thalbergmad]

But if the fact that I'm new here bothers you, then why are you even commenting on this thread anyway??

I am commenting as I have been on the wrong end of sexism myself. It's not just women that suffer, although this may come as a surprise to you.

When you leave school and get out into the real World, you might have a different view.

Thal

[mikeowski]

Btw, if you have about 40 minutes to spare, this guy does a pretty good job of explaining why I can't and nobody should take feminism seriously:

It's also damn funny (at least to me ).

[cwjalex]

That video was more about entertainment than explaining what is wrong with feminism.  The problem is that most of the feminist movement are misandrists that don't want equal treatment, but better treatment.  There are countless speeches by feminist representatives that are filled with man hating propaganda and voice beliefs like women who like men and are not afraid of them just need to do a little more research.  Feminists consistently describe men as bullies and predators which is why many women who support women's rights are staunchly anti-feminist.  PETA, people for the ethical treatment of animals, is a noble and worthy cause but their values, beliefs, and actions goes far beyond their simple definition.

Many women who say they want equal treatment haven't thought long and hard about what this would actually mean.  When a woman goes on a date they can throw out any idea that the man should pay since that would not be equal.  Holding the door open and other acts of chivalry would cease to exist since they are based on unequal treatment.  In the USA men cannot vote until they sign a service agreement that they if it came to war they would die for their country, draft conscription.  Women are able to vote just by turning 18.  Equality would mean that they could be drafted into war and fight on the front lines.  

When the titanic sank the vast majority of the deaths were men because the boat had a "women and children first" policy.  I don't think women would want that kind of policy abandoned and things being left to the strongest survive.  In an equal world any time a guy has stepped in because a woman was getting hurt wouldn't occur since it is based on unequal treatment of men and women.  Equal treatment would also mean no more division of men and women in sports.  Men and women would compete together which would virtually eliminate all female representation at the top of every sport.  What women should be fighting for is equal opportunity, which in most of first world countries, they have guaranteed by law.  

[outin]

That video was more about entertainment than explaining what is wrong with feminism.  The problem is that most of the feminist movement are misandrists that don't want equal treatment, but better treatment.  There are countless speeches by feminist representatives that are filled with man hating propaganda and voice beliefs like women who like men and are not afraid of them just need to do a little more research.  Feminists consistently describe men as bullies and predators which is why many women who support women's rights are staunchly anti-feminist.  PETA, people for the ethical treatment of animals, is a noble and worthy cause but their values, beliefs, and actions goes far beyond their simple definition.

Many women who say they want equal treatment haven't thought long and hard about what this would actually mean.  When a woman goes on a date they can throw out any idea that the man should pay since that would not be equal.  Holding the door open and other acts of chivalry would cease to exist since they are based on unequal treatment.  In the USA men cannot vote until they sign a service agreement that they if it came to war they would die for their country, draft conscription.  Women are able to vote just by turning 18.  Equality would mean that they could be drafted into war and fight on the front lines.  

When the titanic sank the vast majority of the deaths were men because the boat had a "women and children first" policy.  I don't think women would want that kind of policy abandoned and things being left to the strongest survive.  In an equal world any time a guy has stepped in because a woman was getting hurt wouldn't occur since it is based on unequal treatment of men and women.  Equal treatment would also mean no more division of men and women in sports.  Men and women would compete together which would virtually eliminate all female representation at the top of every sport.  What women should be fighting for is equal opportunity, which in most of first world countries, they have guaranteed by law.  

I'm not disagreeing with everything you said, but it's clear that those of you who live in a more conservative environment often have different views on gender issues than those of us who live in countries where gender equality is somewhat considered a normal state of affairs in most parts of the social life. People's perception and views are always affected by the environment they live in.

As an example 50 years ago it was considered perfectly normal that men have to do obligatory military service while women don't. It's still not obligatory but today more and more women are going for the voluntary service. At the same time more people are starting to see that there's a clear unequality issue which will have to be properly addressed sooner or later. Either make it obligatory for women as well or make it voluntary for everyone. And it's not just men who find the unequality disturbing, also many organizations for women do. Of course men do not only get negative concequences from having to go to the army, there are certain benefits as well from that. But they do lose some time that could be used for other career development. On the other hand women tend to "lose  time" when reproducing, if they do. So these things are never simple.

What people don't always seem to understand is that there is not one "femimism". The concept can refer to vastly different political movements, ideologies and scientific theories. To get at least some idea, wikipedia is one place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Hating men is really not a common component of feminism just as hating women is not a necessary component of male chauvinism.

There are many feminists who want  both equal opportunities AND equal responsibilities. I certainly don't care for any "women first" policies or expect men to step in and take the responsibility when there's trouble. I do however think it's right to give some compensation in work life for women when they are reproducing, since the society will end up drying out if women would not. At least until science make it possible for men to have babies as well

[chopincat]

Many women who say they want equal treatment haven't thought long and hard about what this would actually mean.  When a woman goes on a date they can throw out any idea that the man should pay since that would not be equal.  Holding the door open and other acts of chivalry would cease to exist since they are based on unequal treatment.  In the USA men cannot vote until they sign a service agreement that they if it came to war they would die for their country, draft conscription.  Women are able to vote just by turning 18.  Equality would mean that they could be drafted into war and fight on the front lines.  

I am a feminist and I am thoroughly against chivalry! Chivalry is both harmful to men and and women! You seem to know how chivalry harms men, but it harms women too because a) it promotes the stereotype that women are weaker than men and b) it gives people some really fucked up ideas about sexual assault being ok (i. e. "if he paid for her dinner she has to give him some action"... what the *** people). Chivalry is a really common topic in feminist circles and most of us agree that it's detrimental to society, so please stop making assumptions about a movement you know nothing about!

I must admit I didn't know about the draft rule still stood (I'm not at a voting age yet). I think that that policy is unfair and should be changed. I don't see why you assume that women and feminists wouldn't want this policy changed, considering that thousands of women enroll by their own choice in the army each year.

There are countless speeches by feminist representatives that are filled with man hating propaganda and voice beliefs like women who like men and are not afraid of them just need to do a little more research.

Countless? Really? Well how about you start by showing me just one that has that exact message? And even if you can find one, the opinions of the extremists within a movement do not define the movement as a whole. Please stop insulting a movement for the opinions of a few individuals.

PETA, people for the ethical treatment of animals, is a noble and worthy cause but their values, beliefs, and actions goes far beyond their simple definition.

Don't really see how PETA relates to any of this. They are an awful organization...but how on earth does that relate to feminism??

many women who support women's rights are staunchly anti-feminist

Do I need to post the definition again?!? Women who "support women's rights" and "are staunchly anti-feminist" simply don't know what the term means!!!

Equal treatment would also mean no more division of men and women in sports

Not true, because men and women have proven physical differences that affect their performance in sports. Feminism advocates for political, economic, and social equality. Sports doesn't have to do with any of that, because men and women don't have physical equality.

What women should be fighting for is equal opportunity, which in most of first world countries, they have guaranteed by law.

Why are first world countries the only countries that matter to you? But even with that classicism aside, men and women don't get equal opportunity in first world countries, and that will never be able to be guaranteed by law, because the opportunity gap is much more systemic than the law will ever be able to address. If there's equal opportunity, why are girls like me constantly discouraged from STEM fields?? Why can't we make any comments about wanting to pursue an ambitious career in any field (music included, which was part of what this thread was originally about) without being discouraged from doing so because it would make it "difficult to have a family"?? And how come people pay women less for the same work, and assume that they're less capable of doing it in the first place, despite identical qualifications?? (If you don't believe me, take a look at this: https://news.yale.edu/2012/09/24/scientists-not-immune-gender-bias-yale-study-shows)

I don't think women would want that

See, throughout this entire post, you are making assumptions and putting words in our mouths. Stop taking our voices away and start listening for a change!

[chopincat]

I am commenting as I have been on the wrong end of sexism myself.

Wrong, because men can't suffer sexism, in the same way white people can't suffer racism or rich people can't suffer classicism. You may have been discriminated against throughout your life (and I'm not denying that), but there is no system of oppression against you. Please learn your terminology.

[j_menz]

rich people can't suffer classicism.

 

I believe you mean classism, which lacks the delicate sense of proportion.

[outin]

Wrong, because men can't suffer sexism, in the same way white people can't suffer racism or rich people can't suffer classicism. You may have been discriminated against throughout your life (and I'm not denying that), but there is no system of oppression against you. Please learn your terminology.

Actually men CAN suffer from sexism as well, although it really isn't as prevalent as it is when women are concerned. Maybe Thal has suffered too, because he has been cursed with such a pretty face

[chopincat]

I did mean classism. I'm having trouble keeping my eyes open right now and I apologize for the mistake. I don't entirely understand what you meant by "which lacks the delicate sense of proportion," (are you referring to me or classism?) probably also because I'm tired to the point of incoherency right now. I'm going to bed, but I'll be more than happy to continue this discussion tomorrow.

[chopincat]

outin - I'm referring to the scholarly definition of sexism, which might be different from the way it is used in everyday use. Goodnight everyone!

[j_menz]

are you referring to me or classism?

I was referring to classicism as having such a sense and classism as lacking it.

outin - I'm referring to the scholarly definition of sexism

No, you're really not.

[outin]

Chivalry is both harmful to men and and women!

Mostly annoying, I'd say. It's ridiculous that I should wait for some guy to open the door when I can do it much faster myself. I also like sit down on a chair without someone "helping" me. I often find myself biting my tongue not to snap at men acting like idiots...

I think courtesy in some situations is fine, but as something offered to everyone regardless of their gender.

The fact is, where I work when someone gets grazy and becomes abusive or violent, it is my responsibility to go in and solve the situation the best I can. I get payed for that. The men are free to run and hide in their rooms. That's the kind of equality I speak for. It doesn't really exist yet in many cases and from that point of view I do sympathize with Thal.

[outin]

outin - I'm referring to the scholarly definition of sexism,

So was I

[cwjalex]

you really don't know much about the feminist movement if you haven't heard the blatant misandry voiced. that message i posted was actually copy and pasted from a feminist representative on a BBC speech. there really are countless others that are even worse. why do you think there is so much hatred against the feminist movement?  even among women?  most men and virtually every women is not against equal rights for women but the feminist movement is something far beyond that.  you really should do some research into a movement that you are supporting.  the reason i mentioned PETA was because their idea is good in the same way that feminism is a good idea but the idea and what the movement actually is and has become are two drastically different things.  if you actually do hate men and think they are a bunch of dirty minded rapists then you probably would support the feminist movement.

also this comment is completely false:

"Wrong, because men can't suffer sexism, in the same way white people can't suffer racism or rich people can't suffer classicism. You may have been discriminated against throughout your life (and I'm not denying that), but there is no system of oppression against you. Please learn your terminology."

men can't suffer sexism?  white people can't suffer racism?  i can't tell if you are serious or just trolling at this point.

[outin]

...the feminist movement is something far beyond that.  ...

I suggest you read my message above again and visit the page I linked. There is no ONE general feminist movement. It simply does not exist. There are individual people who claim to be feminists having very different aims and ideologies and there are individual organizations that use the concept to describe their cause.

[j_menz]

Blurt, vomit, steam.

Well, at least you've managed hysteria. I suppose that's a step forward for equality.

I speak etymologically, of course.

[ahinton]

Indeed, but women seem to strangely forget this.They want equality when it comes to high powered jobs, be on board of directors, run multinational companies, but they don't want it to become toilet cleaners or road sweepers.

Does anyone of either gender really want - in the sense of having some kind of burning ambition - to be a toilet cleaner or roadsweeper for a living? I don't think that the point that you appear to be making here has merit (although others that you have made in this thread do).

Best,

Alistair

[dima_76557]

-

[thalbergmad]

Actually men CAN suffer from sexism as well

Thanks, it is important that our resident feminist schoolkid realizes this.

On another point, I am and always will be a gentleman towards women. I think nothing of giving up my seat on a bus or opening a door for a woman. To me, it is as natural as helping an old person cross the road. Today, I even gave a CD to a young lady who said she had never heard of Rachmaninov. The smile I received was more than sufficient payment.

Whilst I still breathe, the art of chivalry will not die in England.

Thal

[jknott]

Sorry you also have a resident feminist 55 year old so don't pull the patronising trick.

Why do you assume feminists are misandrists?  That may have been true for a time back in the 80s but it's an insulting assumption these days. I've been happily married for 33 years to a man, though of course he doesn't share the bigoted views of many on this forum.  Doesn't stop me wanting equality of opportunity for my daughter as she makes her way in the still male-dominated world of academia.

[thalbergmad]

I think it is time to start a thread on public breastfeeding.

That will get the feminists on their high horses.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thanks, it is important that our resident feminist schoolkid realizes this.

On another point, I am and always will be a gentleman towards women. I think nothing of giving up my seat on a bus or opening a door for a woman. To me, it is as natural as helping an old person cross the road. Today, I even gave a CD to a young lady who said she had never heard of Rachmaninov. The smile I received was more than sufficient payment.

Whilst I still breathe, the art of chivalry will not die in England.

WHAT ABOUT SCOTLAND??!!!

That said, of couse I agree with you wholeheartedly. Why? Because that's not about feminism, masculism or any other "ism" but just human decency; if we abandon that, we abandon everything worth having. I do hope that the lady to whom you gave the Rachmaninov CD appreciates its contents; good for you for doing that!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think it is time to start a thread on public breastfeeding.

That will get the feminists on their high horses.

Quite an uncomfortable place from which to breastfeed, methinks...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

WHAT ABOUT SCOTLAND??!!!

I once opened a door for a lady at the Loch Ness Exhibition Centre and got the filthiest look imaginable. I have given up being a gentleman in Scotland as I have also given up trying to see the monster.

That said, of couse I agree with you wholeheartedly

.

Good Lord

Why? Because that's not about feminism, masculism or any other "ism" but just human decency; if we abandon that, we abandon everything worth having.

Precisely.

I do hope that the lady to whom you gave the Rachmaninov CD appreciates its contents; good for you for doing that!

Given her profession, it might well serve a purpose.

Thal

[j_menz]

Given her profession, it might well serve a purpose.

Am I the only one wondering at the response if she'd never heard of Schumann? 

[chopincat]

you really don't know much about the feminist movement if you haven't heard the blatant misandry voiced. that message i posted was actually copy and pasted from a feminist representative on a BBC speech.

You aren't listening to me. I know there are misandrists in the feminist movement. I acknowledged that in my post. But every movement has its extremists. Movements aren't defined by the extreme opinions of a few individuals, so neither is feminism!!

also this comment is completely false:

"Wrong, because men can't suffer sexism, in the same way white people can't suffer racism or rich people can't suffer classicism. You may have been discriminated against throughout your life (and I'm not denying that), but there is no system of oppression against you. Please learn your terminology."

men can't suffer sexism?  white people can't suffer racism?  i can't tell if you are serious or just trolling at this point.

No, I am serious, because I am referring to the SCHOLARLY DEFINITIONS of these terms (which I admit are probably different than how the general public uses them). The scholarly definitions involve discrimination AND systemic oppression. I know that these are the definitions because I currently study this topic. There is NO systemic oppression against men, or white people, or rich people, etc. There might be plenty of discrimination for various reason, but there is no system of oppression, so there is no sexism in the scholarly sense of the word.

[chopincat]

I think it is time to start a thread on public breastfeeding.

That will get the feminists on their high horses.

Don't really understand what you mean. Breastfeeding is a completely natural and necessary act for any mother with an infant child. There isn't really anything inherently controversial about it.

[Bob]

I think it is time to start a thread on public breastfeeding.

That will get the feminists on their high horses.

Thal

With reason Thal.  I don't think anyone wants to see you breastfeeding anything anywhere. 

Get that image out of your head.


I guess it would be some kind of pec feeding.  Men has pecs.

[outin]

I think it is time to start a thread on public breastfeeding.

That will get the feminists on their high horses.

If you ask me all infants should stay at home until they learn to be quiet...which is around 4 years I guess...

[outin]

No, I am serious, because I am referring to the SCHOLARLY DEFINITIONS of these terms (which I admit are probably different than how the general public uses them). The scholarly definitions involve discrimination AND systemic oppression. I know that these are the definitions because I currently study this topic. There is NO systemic oppression against men, or white people, or rich people, etc. There might be plenty of discrimination for various reason, but there is no system of oppression, so there is no sexism in the scholarly sense of the word.

I have studied this field extensively as well (before you were even born actually) and I can assure you that sexism is not limited to women. Just think about sexual minorities or the common expectations on being a "man" in our society.

Gender studies tend to focus more on women studies, but it doesn't mean they can claim the concepts solely for themselves. What you have been studying is just one way to use the concept (which seems to be heavily interweaved with a certain theoretical frame of reference). But it is not the only way, not even in scholarly circles. Text books tend to give you a somewhat limited view on what is happening in science...

But it is true that globally sexism affects women in complete different scale and is therefore a more relevant subject to study at the moment.

[ahinton]

I once opened a door for a lady at the Loch Ness Exhibition Centre and got the filthiest look imaginable. I have given up being a gentleman in Scotland as I have also given up trying to see the monster..

So you make an exception of Scotland, notwithstanding your principles, because of your personal experience of just one person's behaviour there? Why? As to the rest, it's difficult to figure out how to give up trying to see something that doesn't exist...

Given her profession, it might well serve a purpose.

A little elucidation might not come amiss here...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Don't really understand what you mean. Breastfeeding is a completely natural and necessary act for any mother with an infant child. There isn't really anything inherently controversial about it.

I'm unaware that anyone here suggesed that there is; however, not every mother wants to do it in public...

Best,

Alistair

[jknott]

I don't think any mother wants to do it in the toilet. Why has the 21st century become so prissy?

But quelle surprise that the misogynist brigade bring this up.