Valse Brillante op 18 project

[faa2010]

Here is the part one of the Valse Brillante op 18.

Feedback is welcome.

Thanks

[j_menz]

Phrasing, staccato/legato distinction, accents and waltz rhythm. Your missing all three.

To start with, really overemphasise them - go completely over the top. It's much easier to then pull back as required.

[faa2010]

Thanks for the feedback.

Next time, I will try without the metronome, adding another section.

BTW, what do you mean with waltz rhythm?

[amytsuda]

Good job as the first step! I hear metronome so I guess you are just learning the notes. I didn't carefully listen but I think you were generally accurate. Anyway, I do the same when I learn a new piece. But if I bring it like that to my teacher, he'd tear me up....like, where is phrasing, legato is missing, accents are missing, and speeeed up! Like J_Menz commented.

I wonder if any of teachers here can explain the general path to master a piece. For example, first milestone is to get through the piece slowly without mistakes with metronome, second milestone is to speed it up to tempo, third milestone is to add phrasing, accents, etc, forth milestone is to memorize, fifth milestone is play it perfect details, etc... or is this a thinking pattern of some corporate project manager?

[outin]

I wonder if any of teachers here can explain the general path to master a piece. For example, first milestone is to get through the piece slowly without mistakes with metronome, second milestone is to speed it up to tempo, third milestone is to add phrasing, accents, etc, forth milestone is to memorize, fifth milestone is play it perfect details, etc... or is this a thinking pattern of some corporate project manager?

I am not a teacher, but I don't learn my pieces this way. I learn usually phrase by phrase, trying to perfect the details as I go. Playing slowly if necessary or even HS, but sometimes just hands together with close to final tempo (with easier sections). I need to HEAR the music the right way before I can memorize notes at all, because my auditory memory is the most reliable one. So memorizing happens gradually. Reinforcing the memorization happens almost last, after I am pleased with the way the piece sounds. Of course after memorized there are still countless of new details that I am not quite satisfied about...

I hardly ever use the metronome, but use counting with more complex rhythms. I don't know if the above way is more efficient, but I don't think it would suit me, because I really need to try to make music from day one (although I usually don't do it that well at once).

My teacher always says there's no point learning the notes first and then trying to add "music" since the music comes from what you do physically and you need to relearn a lot that way. I think sometimes one needs to spend some time examining the notes from the score first and maybe ignore some other things, but generally I think she's right.

[j_menz]

BTW, what do you mean with waltz rhythm?

ONE two three, ONE two three. Using the bars as marked.

You currently divide each bar into three 2/8 bars. That gives the effect of a quick march, not a waltz.

[quantum]

Good start on the notes.  I'd suggest taking the section you recorded at the same tempo and adding articulation, expression, phrasing, along with the waltz feel.  It is a good study to do these things at slower tempi. 

[faa2010]

Here is an update. Sorry for the beginning and the mistakes, but I want to know if something has improved compared to the first recording.

[j_menz]

It's vastly improved.

It still has quite a way to go, but it is now at least a waltz. The tempo is uneven, and I'd fall flat on my face dancing to it, but at least I'd recognise what steps I should be taking.

Next stage: Even up the tempo (getting better at the notes will help - there are a number of bits you struggle a bit with, so isolate them and work on them until they're comfortable); speed it up a bit. Once you've done that (and probably ONLY once you've done that), lighten the bass a bit, but be careful that you don't lose the beat.

And book a piano tuner. 

Look forward to the next one.

[faa2010]

Here is another update.

I hope it is better.

Waiting for feedback.

[j_menz]

Tempo is more even, though you slow down gradually over the whole piece - it particularly shows when sections are repeats of earlier ones, so watch that.  There are still plenty of places where you are struggling with the notes, but you probably know that - keep working on them. Where you are struggling, the tempo goes right out the window (which is pretty normal), but when you get them working it should be OK.

As well as those bits, you should now have a new look at the phrasing of the piece. Take each phrase and consider how it should be shaped dynamically, and consider where the breaths are (and where rests are). It's a bit flat at present, though how much that is a factor of the recording is not clear.

Coming along nicely.

[faa2010]

Thanks menz, in fact I have been more focused about the tempo and to play even than in playing the right notes.

I know that there has to be a balance and think in everything. In the past, I prefered to play the right notes that because of this, my play was choppy, and from then, I decided to search how to play more even, fluent and sing it that I saw that I forget to look to play the right notes.

These ones I played in the past:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41960.0

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=54674.0

This is a piece I played last year

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=56864.0

I understand that the valse is very complex, but I decided to play it for a recital this year. I hope to play easier ones to increase my technique and level once the recital finishes.

Hope to send another update this weekend.


Here is another update, I tried to play less flat.

[faa2010]

Another update, hope it is better.

I tried to play it less flat, but when I heard it, I see that the parts which have to be forte are flat. Or I am deaf or the recording has a control to reduce amplitude.

[j_menz]

Tempo is evening out nicely. Not quite there yet - a few hesitations and a few meanderings but coming along nicely. You're starting to lose the waltz feel in the bass a bit, though, so watch that - ONE two three ONE two three. Every few times, do a run through that really overdoes that. The treble too should have that feel to it, so try emphasising the first note of each bar a bit more. At this point, overdoing it won't hurt - it seems you'll naturally scale back easily enough - the risk is to underdo it.

Next step is to speed it up. Whatever pace you finally settle on, you should aim to be able to do it about half as fast again to settle into it. Notes are generally better under your fingers now; not all of them are quite there yet but moving the tempo up will help (if only to identify them more clearly to you).

I take your point about the recording - some recorders have inbuilt noise limiters that flatten things out. You may be able to turn it off, so have a look at least (you may be stuck with it, too).

[faa2010]

Tempo is evening out nicely. Not quite there yet - a few hesitations and a few meanderings but coming along nicely. You're starting to lose the waltz feel in the bass a bit, though, so watch that - ONE two three ONE two three. Every few times, do a run through that really overdoes that. The treble too should have that feel to it, so try emphasising the first note of each bar a bit more. At this point, overdoing it won't hurt - it seems you'll naturally scale back easily enough - the risk is to underdo it.

Next step is to speed it up. Whatever pace you finally settle on, you should aim to be able to do it about half as fast again to settle into it. Notes are generally better under your fingers now; not all of them are quite there yet but moving the tempo up will help (if only to identify them more clearly to you).

I take your point about the recording - some recorders have inbuilt noise limiters that flatten things out. You may be able to turn it off, so have a look at least (you may be stuck with it, too).

Thanks, right now I am going to put the metronome to 100 this week, still too slow but I don't want to decrease the quality like I did years ago with the Minute waltz, at that moment playing it faster was my priority that I didn't pay attention to other issues.

Now that I listen to the record again after years ago (since 2011), I see more errors than at the moment I played it and posted it, and asking myself why my ears (and myself) didn't recognize that something really was wrong before, during and after playing it in the recital:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=42085.0

I take by heart that before playing something faster, I should learn it in slow pace, then accelerate to where I can and not to worry if I don't play it faster yet.

So the lower note in the bass should be marked?

Which tempo can be considered as vivo?

[faa2010]

Sorry for the delay,

Here is another update. As you know, comments and feedback are welcome.

I see that I start with a tempo, but then I go either faster either faster or slow.

I hope I also put the waltz feel.

[j_menz]

What you should do now is sit down with your recording and the score. Wherever there's a clunkiness, you're struggling with the actual notes. Mark those passages and practice them in isolation (bar before, bar in question, bar after). The last bit needs more work, but I think you already know that.

Do a few recordings along the way and repeat the process.

Tempo should be a bit faster - listen to a few recordings and see what you're aiming at.

Once the problem areas are ironed out, focus on phrasing and touch - what's legato and what's more detached or staccato, what notes should be emphasised more, what less (rhythm aside).

It's coming along nicely and relatively little work will start to make it really start to sound as it should.

[faa2010]

Here is another update. Sorry if I am still making mistakes, but I will iron them and I am going to check the last part because that is still in memorizing process.

Also the silence spaces are on purpose, so I can show how I divided the piece.

Right now I am in 120 bpm, if I increase the speed, my mistakes will be more noticeable. I know that I have to play it faster, but I don't know how to do it if I have to iron my mistakes.

Also I am afraid to do it without the metronomer because without it I will decrease or increase the speed.

What it is above are not excuses, those are issues which I want to deal with, but I don't know how.

Thanks for the feedback.

[outin]

Here is another update. Sorry if I am still making mistakes, but I will iron them and I am going to check the last part because that is still in memorizing process.

Also the silence spaces are on purpose, so I can show how I divided the piece.

Right now I am in 120 bpm, if I increase the speed, my mistakes will be more noticeable. I know that I have to play it faster, but I don't know how to do it if I have to iron my mistakes.

Also I am afraid to do it without the metronomer because without it I will decrease or increase the speed.

What it is above are not excuses, those are issues which I want to deal with, but I don't know how.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think there's something fundamentally wrong with how you try to learn this piece. You simply need to get rid of the metronome now. It's not normal to be so dependent on it at this stage of learning a piece. Just count in your head when uncertain.

Did you do what J-menz suggested? Because that is what you need to do, work on the isolated passages that cause you trouble until you are comfortable with the whole piece. And DO NOT try to increase speed until you have managed that. If you cannot, you'll just have to accept that the piece is too much for you at the moment and play it slower for now. Nobody wants to hear people stumble through pieces with a speed they cannot handle. You will probably need a break from the piece as well to get a fresh POW.

[michael_sayers]

You simply need to get rid of the metronome now.

Hi Outin,

That is right - for all the effort the o.p. is putting into this, it doesn't make sense to use a metronome this much - and especially not with the "audition" recordings - as a metronome does not beat in Waltz time.


Mvh,
Michael

[faa2010]

Here is another update. I also did a video, but I can't neither convert it nor send it to youtube.

[j_menz]

Tempo is actually pretty steady without the (cursed) metronome. Keep up the walking.

Last bit is still nowhere near there. Do consider the cut and post a sample to check it works.

No pedal between now and two days before the performance.

[faa2010]

Here is another update. I hope that it is better than the last one.

Is the tempo even?

Feedback is welcome.