Chopin - Ballade f minor: I need some advice

[verqueue]

I need some advice in that piece. I know it's not ready, but I've month to be able to play it well. I can't have a lesson with teacher, so I came here. Please give me your feedback, tips, etc.

[faulty_damper]

Hi verqueue,

The first thing I heard from the very opening measure was that you're being held back by the way you move your fingers.  Watching the video confirmed that this is exactly what you are doing.  There's a constant co-contraction where your fingers are extended and curled simultaneously. You may not even feel this co-contraction but it's preventing you from being able to play freely, making performance slower.

Musically, phrases take too long to complete so the ideas are forgotten.

Why do you have a month to play it?  Audition?
More importantly, what do you think you need to improve?

[verqueue]

Thank you faulty_damper for your time.

Why do you have a month to play it?  Audition?
More importantly, what do you think you need to improve?

I'll play that piece at a concert. I'm done with auditions .
I think I need to play it more freely, as you said. I just don't want to do anything stupid with piece like that. And of course fix mistakes, but about that I'm not worried.

The first thing I heard from the very opening measure was that you're being held back by the way you move your fingers.  Watching the video confirmed that this is exactly what you are doing.  There's a constant co-contraction where your fingers are extended and curled simultaneously. You may not even feel this co-contraction but it's preventing you from being able to play freely, making performance slower.

The beginning of this piece is very hard for me - my range is barely 9, so I've to stretch.
I'm not sure how to prevent this co-contraction you mentioned - do you mean that I should try to play the beginning with more straight fingers?
And do you mean it should be faster or with more rubato?

[faulty_damper]

The opening measures, right hand can be made very easy by not using finger legato.  That is, don't spread the fingers in the octave position; allow the hand to close as the inner notes are played.  This will immediately relax the hand.  There are many other places where the hand doesn't need to maintain the stretch to play the inner notes.

To make the inner notes easier to play, allow the hand to hinge down at the wrist.  It will sort of look like a flapping motion.  This minimizes the motion of the fingers so you are now incorporating more of the body.  Most importantly, you will immediately feel that this is very easy and barely requires any effort.

Musically, yes, it should be a bit faster. Phrases can push forward toward the main idea and then back away as the phrases end.  Currently, many of the phrases are flat so it lacks musical expressiveness.

[verqueue]

Thank you for an explanation, now I understand better what you meant.
Definitely I'll try it. And I'll try a bit faster tempo too. The form of this piece isn't easy to build, but maybe speeding up a little will help me.

[alistaircrane4]

Accentuate the trill much more between the g and aflat at three minutes into your recording. That specific part is very important to that section as it releases the tension built up by the emajor section and the modulation back to the tonic. You should have more notes in that trill. Also do not be afraid to really loosen up on the dynamics. Aside from that it is quite good. Good luck with the true performance!

[verqueue]

Accentuate the trill much more between the g and aflat at three minutes into your recording. That specific part is very important to that section as it releases the tension built up by the emajor section and the modulation back to the tonic. You should have more notes in that trill.

Oh, you're right. Very good remark, thank you!

[alistaircrane4]

Oh, you're right. Very good remark, thank you!

Anytime! Chopin is my favorite composer as well as my specialty in terms of performance. It makes me more sensitive to many part of his pieces. Glad I could provide good advice.

[pianoman53]

Ooh, faulty wants something played faster? Didn't see that coming..!


The speed is fine.

The fact that you move your hand while playing the first octaves is also fine.

What's lacking in the first octaves is the atmosphere. It's difficult to put the finger on it, but I feel that it's not calm enough. The color can also be a bit more on the top, but it's probably because of the piano and the camera.

Then, the second half of the second bar; The phrasing isn't right. The G should have an "accent" and the E, in the 3rd bar should have a small one. That's the basic line. Notes after the G (f, e) and after the E (d, c) should be played in a diminuendo. Now there are accents in those smaller notes, which is not right. How you treat the long E in the third bar is up to you - either with a tiny bit of time, or with an accent. Both will work.

Then you need to feel the c (the first note of the theme) muuuuch more. It's completely empty, only a c major, without a top note (and fermata!) and suddently this c is coming. It's like you're having a dream, and suddenly you wake up to a much darker reality.

A general thing is that the left hand has to be more melodic. Voice the top of the chords, and not the full chord.

Around 2.20 in your recording, you go down in tempo quite a bit. I like it, and I'd do the same thing. but you need to get back into tempo again, otherwise it's a very dragging place.
To be completely honest, it's not even a melody. It's harmonies going up and down. So once the new harmony is heard, there is nothing more to listen to. So don't make it more than what it is.

Where Alistaircrane4 mentioned the trill, I want to mention the harmonies. You need more direction, otherwise you get stuck. Now, it's not the same as playing faster, but you're tempo is a bit dragging, in general. So don't play faster, but also not slower.

I'll write more later. I need to practice myself

[verqueue]

Ooh, faulty wants something played faster? Didn't see that coming..!
The speed is fine.

When I played I had a feeling that I suffocate a little, so maybe speeding up a little will help me .

What's lacking in the first octaves is the atmosphere. It's difficult to put the finger on it, but I feel that it's not calm enough. The color can also be a bit more on the top, but it's probably because of the piano and the camera.

Then, the second half of the second bar; The phrasing isn't right. The G should have an "accent" and the E, in the 3rd bar should have a small one. That's the basic line. Notes after the G (f, e) and after the E (d, c) should be played in a diminuendo. Now there are accents in those smaller notes, which is not right. How you treat the long E in the third bar is up to you - either with a tiny bit of time, or with an accent. Both will work.

Yes, you are right. This beginning is very unforgiving. It's so hard to get the phrasing right as it's in the score, especially when there are some nerves (even camera makes me nervous).

Then you need to feel the c (the first note of the theme) muuuuch more. It's completely empty, only a c major, without a top note (and fermata!) and suddently this c is coming. It's like you're having a dream, and suddenly you wake up to a much darker reality.

Yeah, I didn't work much on proper feeling of it.

A general thing is that the left hand has to be more melodic. Voice the top of the chords, and not the full chord.

Oh, definitely I have to work on it.

Where Alistaircrane4 mentioned the trill, I want to mention the harmonies. You need more direction, otherwise you get stuck.

Yes, probably making my left hand more melodic will solve that too.

Thank you, pianoman53 for your time and your remarks. They are great, they defnitely will help me.

[pianoman53]

When I played I had a feeling that I suffocate a little, so maybe speeding up a little will help me .

That's because you constantly slow down a little. I think you'll have that feeling even if you'd play faster, because you might still slow down... But ya, try and see if a little faster helps.

[verqueue]

This is my effort from today, still not ready, but I felt better in faster tempo. Of course I can't play it without mistakes... I've to sit more with the score.

[faulty_damper]

Are you aware that you tense the muscles prior to the fingers even touching the keys?  This is creating static tension which is slowing you down throughout.  Tensing requires you to relax then shape the hand to the next note pattern/grouping, which further slows you down.  It's also contributing the minute, but very perceptible, hesitations where notes are retarding the beat instead of precisely on it.  This is actually quite annoying since the piece is quite long.

Musically, there's that melodic motive, the repeated note throughout the piece, which needs to be given more musical attention.  This is the comment I made earlier about pushing forward toward the musical idea and then backing away.

This performance is better overall.

[verqueue]

Yes, I'm aware of this tension, but it's not easy to eliminate it. I tried, but I think I need more time for it and it's mainly the mental thing. Probably after this month I'll be more sucessful on that, because I'll be without pressure. Still I think the beginning is a little better after your advice, I feel less tense (but still there is some tension). With so small hands it's easy to get tense in wide spots .

I worked on this motive you mentioned, but still not enough. But I think this time I managed it better, I just have to decide on something. Performances of great pianists don't help me with that, because they play it so different. There are also differences between editions.

Thank you for your time and advices.

[faulty_damper]

Using a specific example, this is how you play octaves with your left hand:
1. Tense hand and fingers
2. Press down with forearm

Instead:
Squeeze the fingers to depress the keys.  Combine this movement with forearm press.*

* The forearm press alone is not an efficient movement.  Adding a slight forward motion makes it more so.

[pianoplayer002]

Using a specific example, this is how you play octaves with your left hand:
1. Tense hand and fingers
2. Press down with forearm

Instead:
Squeeze the fingers to depress the keys.  Combine this movement with forearm press.*

* The forearm press alone is not an efficient movement.  Adding a slight forward motion makes it more so.

I agree, but I would replace "squeeze" with "let the finger tips sink together with the key". For me, squeeze implies something that is tense, because you easily end up wanting to feel how you squeeze those bastard keys.The fingers must be completely loose and move independently of the arm. The hand must also be completely relaxed. The fingertips should sink, but they should still have their own motion, so you don't revert to the "tense hand and fingers and press down with the forearm" thing.

[verqueue]

Thanks for the tips, pianoplayer002 and faulty_damper. When I practiced today I think I felt the proper motion, so there is hope for me. I'll try to play like this in this week, only slowly with attention to this kind of motion. I'll work on bigger sections without playing to not come back to old habits, but to still work on the interpretation. It'll be an experiment, but if I'll be successful, then quality of my playing will be much better, so I don't think that I've anything to lose. It can't be worse .

I wonder how long does it take to play like this instinctively... The sad thing is that when I tried to record small spot to see the difference my old habits came back. So no camera for a while . The other problem is my performance anxiety, but maybe with better feeling of movements it'll be easier to manage it.

[pianoplayer002]

Thanks for the tips, pianoplayer002 and faulty_damper. When I practiced today I think I felt the proper motion, so there is hope for me. I'll try to play like this in this week, only slowly with attention to this kind of motion. I'll work on bigger sections without playing to not come back to old habits, but to still work on the interpretation. It'll be an experiment, but if I'll be successful, then quality of my playing will be much better, so I don't think that I've anything to lose. It can't be worse .

I wonder how long does it take to play like this instinctively... The sad thing is that when I tried to record small spot to see the difference my old habits came back. So no camera for a while . The other problem is my performance anxiety, but maybe with better feeling of movements it'll be easier to manage it.

While you practise, don't forget that your fingers, hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders should be allowed to remain supple (as opposed to stiff or resistant to being moved) regardless of what kind of chords or complex passagework you are playing.

It's easy to tense up when the camera is on, because you get self conscious, and then your mind tricks you into thinking you will have more control by tensing up. Paradoxally enough the more you let go, the more control you will have. The great thing about acquiring better movement habits is that it reduces your performance anxiety, because you trust your playing mechanism more.

[faulty_damper]

Since tensing is an ingrained habit, you'll have to actively think about it to learn this new manner of playing until it replaces the old habit.  It doesn't take very long, a couple of days at the most, but it's important to always maintain that presence of mind to actively control those movements.  Also be aware that when you perform (even in front of the camera) you engage different parts of the mind/brain and these parts must also learn to associate these new movement patterns.  Otherwise, you revert to the old habits.

[verqueue]

I practiced today and I think it's not about tension. I just want too much to play it good, without mistakes, etc. And when I strive, these co-contraction happen. If I were tense in normal meaning of this word, I wouldn't be able to play this piece even in this way. When I tried to be so loose and even indifferent to what I play, everything started to be a lot of easier, natural. And the sound was better... And there was so nice flow (and faster tempo) in this octave section in G flat and I hadn't a temptation to slow down to shape anything. The shape I imagined was still there...

I practice a lot in slow tempo. Maybe this my second problem, because it's easy to lost efficiency in movements. Maybe it's time to practice more in faster tempo - to have a better flow. I think my practice stopped some levels below my abilities and I can't freed myself from these practice habits. And this thing is stopping my progress. Does it make any sense?

[pianoplayer002]

I practiced today and I think it's not about tension. I just want too much to play it good, without mistakes, etc. And when I strive, these co-contraction happen. If I were tense in normal meaning of this word, I wouldn't be able to play this piece even in this way. When I tried to be so loose and even indifferent to what I play, everything started to be a lot of easier, natural. And the sound was better... And there was so nice flow (and faster tempo) in this octave section in G flat and I hadn't a temptation to slow down to shape anything. The shape I imagined was still there...

I practice a lot in slow tempo. Maybe this my second problem, because it's easy to lost efficiency in movements. Maybe it's time to practice more in faster tempo - to have a better flow. I think my practice stopped some levels below my abilities and I can't freed myself from these practice habits. And this thing is stopping my progress. Does it make any sense?

Here is a simple way to check if you have tension. Do you feel fatigue, tightness or a "warm" sensation in the muscles of your arm after finishing playing this piece? If the answer is yes to any of those, you have some tension, so keep experimenting!

It's hard to see all the fingers of your right hand, but your 2nd finger is definitely doing some odd, co-contracty things. Make sure you allow this finger to remain in its natural shape. The same goes for the 4th on your left hand.

In the coda, you have an example of "inefficiency". I can see your arm bouncing up and down on each note, and it looks like you are pressing down on your fingers with your arm. Those are some fast notes, so you don't have time to play them like that. They need to be played with finger action, the arm taking no part in pressing down the key (but always remaining free and supple, loose).

Keep working, you have a very musical mind

[verqueue]

It's hard to see all the fingers of your right hand, but your 2nd finger is definitely doing some odd, co-contracty things. Make sure you allow this finger to remain in its natural shape. The same goes for the 4th on your left hand.

These are remains of faulty technique, which I learned from my professor in conservatory... I didn't know it was wrong then, but now everything I learned after graduating is pointing that. My former professor belive that the 2 and 4 are the weakest fingers, so he invented some exercises for them.

In the coda, you have an example of "inefficiency". I can see your arm bouncing up and down on each note, and it looks like you are pressing down on your fingers with your arm. Those are some fast notes, so you don't have time to play them like that. They need to be played with finger action, the arm taking no part in pressing down the key (but always remaining free and supple, loose).

Thanks, I looked it and you're right. Coda is a nightmare for me, especially after the rest of the piece. Today I tried to play it once more to check my progress. I don't know why before Coda I started to have shivers on these long notes before it. No matter how much I practice it there is always something...