How much should I practice a day???

[diomedes]

It's true: Get a piano teacher. And work on a piano.

If you don't do either, honestly what you do now has limited relevance no matter your intentions. Do it now or 2 months from now, sure, but do it.

Even a half decent teacher will teach you something and know when you have outgrown them and pass you on through personal reference to a worthy professional.

[stoat_king]

I have been thinking about this thread and have rather changed my thinking about it.
I have been the most dreadful hypocrite in this thread and I apologise for my snarky attitude.
I'm a lot older than the OP and looking back at my life I can see that every important decision I made was so random I may as well have rolled a dice instead of thinking about it.
Random, because I didn't understand my situation enough to make an informed decision.

I've had dreams before, so absolutely wild that i dared not even begin imagining them possible. I moved on with life. Then it actually happened. That said, you never know, so i'm not saying it's impossible.

In short, I think that your goal, outlandish as it might seem to me, does you a lot of credit.
The improbable nature of it is admirable in itself.
Any idiot can set their sights so low they cant fail. If your ambition is to lie on a couch and watch Judge Judy all day, you will likely end up a no-mark.
I would even go as far as to argue that there can be no shame in failing to realise so difficult a goal.

That said, with regard to the actual question I can only echo everyone else in this thread. The most efficient route to playing the Rach 3 is likely quite a slow one - get a teacher and concentrate on the fundamentals. You are going to need a lot of patience and/or stubbornness.

Anyway, good for you and good luck.

[bonesquirrel]

Oh, grow up. I have every right to write whatever I want unless breaking the forum rules. And it's all relevant because getting to perform and becoming good at the piano involves much more than just sitting down and practice a lot or picking certain pieces to practice. You will see that one day if you let yourself be guided by someone who knows what he's doing.

Let me make this absolutely clear:
I do not think your goal is impossible. It might even be somewhat realistic if you do the right things now. You are only 15, don't seem to have any major issues that would stop you from being good at the piano and you have already learned some things. Big hands won't hurt with Rach either. But what you are doing now is asking advice from people you know absolutely nothing about and pick and choose from that advice what seems nice to you. That won't get you to your goal. Self-learned pianists simply don't go around performing big classical concertos. For any one possible exception, there will be thousands of failures.

If you get a good piano teacher now a lot can happen. You can still be accepted to a music school where it's possible to get to perform, even with an orchestra. Even if you never make a big career out of music, you'll get connections that may help you reach your goal one day. But you need a piano teacher and private lessons NOW. The school music lessons is not the same.

If you feel it's not possible to get piano lessons because of money or other factors, are you sure? Have you considered all options? Do you want this enough to give up something else to achieve your goal? Think about it. It's not about me, it's about you and what you want.

1 - So you are saying "writing whatever you want" even if it doesn't help me in any way shape or form is "relevant". Exactly what would you describe as "relevant". Also yes, I grasped that, that's the only advice you have offered, was for me to get a teacher. I responded with "Thankyou", the first time....

2 - I knew that, I wouldnt make a goal that was impossible. I'm not picking and choosing, at all! What are you on about. I accepted all advice and rejected everything that wasn't advice, so sorry for being observant and only choosing things that actually were advice instead of criticism or "that will never happen" comments.

3 - Ok, you don't need to repeat yourself. I heard you the first time you said to get a teacher, you can clearly see that from when I said "Thankyou".

4 - Yes I have considered all options and me and my family are still considering them. Being a good pianist is just as important as some of my other goals. What I want is to play the Rach 3, even if its not in an orchestra. If it gets to the point where I just cant get an orchestra, I will still learn it anyway. My main goal is to be able to perform the Rach 3, Ill probably post a recording online of me playing it solo when I finally get to learn it. But that's only if there is no way to find an orchestra. But either way, as long as I reach the level where I can learn it, all I need is the piano and both my hands. Nothing can stop me from learning it.

[bonesquirrel]

In short, I think that your goal, outlandish as it might seem to me, does you a lot of credit.
The improbable nature of it is admirable in itself.
Any idiot can set their sights so low they cant fail. If your ambition is to lie on a couch and watch Judge Judy all day, you will likely end up a no-mark.
I would even go as far as to argue that there can be no shame in failing to realise so difficult a goal.

That said, with regard to the actual question I can only echo everyone else in this thread. The most efficient route to playing the Rach 3 is likely quite a slow one - get a teacher and concentrate on the fundamentals. You are going to need a lot of patience and/or stubbornness.

Anyway, good for you and good luck.

Thank you.

[cwjalex]

a lot of people focus on the improbability of playing rach 3 in an orchestra.  maybe the orchestra part may be difficult if you aren't a professional musician but just the act of being able to perform it by yourself is not that far fetched in my opinion.  i set my own goals on an astronomically high level and it has always been a positive force in my life and has driven me to succeed.  the way i look at it is there are normal people out there that can play things like rach 3 decently after only a few years of playing(obviously not at a high level, just the notes at the correct tempo).  even if only let's say, 1 out of 1000 pianists accomplishes this i think to myself if someone else can do it then so can i if i put in the time and effort.  i think it is this expectation that has helped me improve rapidly.  i think like this and i truly believe it.  i also know that i am completely normal and have no natural talent so if i can do it i believe almost everyone else is capable of it as well.  i truly believe the majority of people are capable of playing rach 3 after only a few years, you included.

[outin]

1 - So you are saying "writing whatever you want" even if it doesn't help me in any way shape or form is "relevant". Exactly what would you describe as "relevant". Also yes, I grasped that, that's the only advice you have offered, was for me to get a teacher. I responded with "Thankyou", the first time....

2 - I knew that, I wouldnt make a goal that was impossible. I'm not picking and choosing, at all! What are you on about. I accepted all advice and rejected everything that wasn't advice, so sorry for being observant and only choosing things that actually were advice instead of criticism or "that will never happen" comments.

3 - Ok, you don't need to repeat yourself. I heard you the first time you said to get a teacher, you can clearly see that from when I said "Thankyou".

4 - Yes I have considered all options and me and my family are still considering them. Being a good pianist is just as important as some of my other goals. What I want is to play the Rach 3, even if its not in an orchestra. If it gets to the point where I just cant get an orchestra, I will still learn it anyway. My main goal is to be able to perform the Rach 3, Ill probably post a recording online of me playing it solo when I finally get to learn it. But that's only if there is no way to find an orchestra. But either way, as long as I reach the level where I can learn it, all I need is the piano and both my hands. Nothing can stop me from learning it.

It seems we have different definitions for both relevant and advice. That's ok.

But I think it's only fair to let you know that while I am not an expert on how to play Rach 3, I am an expert in helping people and organizations achieve their goals. That's what I have been doing for most of my professional career and rather succesfully I'd say. I have also personally seen what a difference having a piano teacher makes.

My goal here is only to help you achieve your goal, although it does not seem that way to you now. If I thought what I wrote is irrelevant or won't make any difference in your situation I would not bother. But I honestly think it's the most relevant and important advice you can get from this place and that's the only reason I am continuing this discussion.

Another piece of advice: To succeed in life you need to grow thicker skin and not take everything personally. Developing a little bit of sense of humour and tolerance to the different ways people communicate wouldn't hurt either.

[j_menz]

maybe the orchestra part may be difficult if you aren't a professional musician but just the act of being able to perform it by yourself is not that far fetched in my opinion.

The whole orchestral part? 

Frankly, just running between the 1st violin and the timpani would exhaust me by the time the piano even got a look in.

[bonesquirrel]

It seems we have different definitions for both relevant and advice. That's ok.

But I think it's only fair to let you know that while I am not an expert on how to play Rach 3, I am an expert in helping people and organizations achieve their goals. That's what I have been doing for most of my professional career and rather succesfully I'd say. I have also personally seen what a difference having a piano teacher makes.

My goal here is only to help you achieve your goal, although it does not seem that way to you now. If I thought what I wrote is irrelevant or won't make any difference in your situation I would not bother. But I honestly think it's the most relevant and important advice you can get from this place and that's the only reason I am continuing this discussion.

Another piece of advice: To succeed in life you need to grow thicker skin and not take everything personally. Developing a little bit of sense of humour and tolerance to the different ways people communicate wouldn't hurt either.

1 - We do

2 - Ok. I already agreed with you about the piano teacher.

3 - I didn't say what you wrote was "irrelevant". You did give advice. But saying stuff like "Get dirty rich so you can hire and orchestra, even if your playing sucks" is NOT relevant or helpful, it just made me angry. Saying that, you obviously do write things that are irrelevant, because that comment was irrelevant.

4 - I don't care what other people think of me, as long as they don't try and explain how their criticism towards me is correct, when it isn't. Example: I'm an Atheist, I don't care if a Christian tells me God as real , an then stops there. I can ignore that, I don't care if they think that, it doesn't effect me. On the other hand, if a Christian trys to explain to me how Atheism is "Evil" or "incorrect" or they tell me I'm going to burn in hell etc. Then look the f*ck out.... As for the humor part, I do have that, in real life during socializing. But I consider this forum serious. Rarely do I try and make a funny suggestion on here, because I see this as a place of seriousness and debate/discussion. As for the 'different ways people communicate" thing, I don't know what your getting at there. We cant have two completely definitions of the same word in the same context, one of the definitions have to be right and the other wrong.

[j_menz]

We cant have two completely definitions of the same word in the same context, one of the definitions have to be right and the other wrong.

Much humour, and much great literature actually depend on such being both possible and interesting. Analogously, so does much great music.

[faulty_damper]

Here's a story that happened while I was taking the required piano pedagogy course at my school.  I should preface by saying that I did not agree with the ideas of the professor, a doctorate of music, about using pieces as "baby steps" to build up to harder and more difficult pieces.  I also did not agree with the way a lesson should be taught.  Here's why:

Part of the course required teaching a beginning piano student how to play.  Twice during the semester, I would have to teach the student in front of the class.  The first in-class lesson went like this: the student repeated certain harmonic patterns, over and over, to learn how to improvise over the chord progression.  This went on for 30 minutes.  My student was making progress very quickly and by the end of the lesson, she was improvising surprisingly well.  She understood how notes could pass from chord to chord and had learned the idea of consonance and dissonance.  However, even though it was obvious that she was improving, I could see that all of my classmates, and the professor, were bored to tears listening to her repeat the same chord progression, over and over.  They all criticized me over it.  None of them made any comment about how much she had improved from the moment she walked into the room to the moment she left.  But, being the student, I listened to their criticisms and their suggestions which were: tell the student to do this, they do it a few times, explain it, assign them that for practice. (If you're a piano teacher, you know the drill.)

My lessons with this student went downhill from there.

I did as the professor told me to teach.  (This was a piano professor who charged $100 an hour for lessons, btw.)  But immediately, I could tell that my student was uncomfortable. Very quickly, she stopped showing up for weekly lessons.  I didn't blame her because lessons had become boring. And honestly, I didn't know how to teach the way I was told to teach.

During the last in-class lesson, she hadn't improved much.  Almost an entire semester went by and the only thing she could do well was improvise over the same harmonic progression.  None of the things I told her to do were learned at all.  I was visibly frustrated and upset.  But you wanna know what?  The professor and the other students all thought it was a better lesson than the first even though she didn't make any noticeable improvement!

I made a remark in class one afternoon.  This is me when I try to prove someone that they are wrong and I right.  I said to the class, as we were sitting in a small circle, that I was going to teach an absolute beginner to play the Rach 3.  Skeptical smiles and eye rolls were their responses.  They said something very dismissive and sarcastic but I can't remember what.  But I was confident in my belief.  And I was also pissed at all of them.

When my student left the room after the first in-class lesson, she was noticeably upbeat and had a slight smile on her face.  She was happy!  But when she left the room after the last in-class lesson, she wasn't.  She actually felt like she was doing me a favor by showing up that afternoon and she was no longer interested in playing the piano.  What had I done?  Thinking about it now, I feel a great sense of sadness regret that I was directly responsible.  Why oh why did I listen to them?  This was something she really wanted to do and I destroyed it.

My point is, if you want to play the Rach 3 even if you're a beginner, find someone who will teach you how.  I was willing then and I am still willing now.  Most people, like the professor and the other students, thought it's ridiculous and preposterous.  I didn't.  I still don't.  I think these people just don't know how to play chords.  Seriously.  Among other things.

[perfect_playing]

 i truly believe the majority of people are capable of playing rach 3 after only a few years, you included.

I have to disagree here. After a few years of playing the piano (assuming you're starting from being a beginner), very few people would be capable of performing such a difficult concerto. Even if you adopt the definition of "playing" as "getting the notes at the right tempo".

But the real definition of "playing", at least from my point of view, is doing far more than "just getting the right notes at the right tempo" - if that's all you're going to do, learning and trying to perform Rach 3, or in fact any piece at all, is seriously equivalent to banging your head against a wall. "Playing" surely includes actually making "music" of what you're doing - if you're not in it for the music you might as well not be learning the piano at all.

[j_menz]

Here's a story

Methinks the other Man Booker prospects can sleep easily.

[perfect_playing]

Try this approach, goals by interval:

Year 1. Beethoven Sonata 1 in f minor
Year 2. Chopin Ballade 1
Year 3. Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody 2
Year 4. Brahms Sonata 3
Year 5. Liszt Danse Macabre transcription
Year 6. Beethoven Hammerklavier
Year 7. Tchaikovsky b flat minor Concerto
Year 8. Some other bigass man eating concerto
Year 9. Rachmaninov 3

Are you serious? Was this meant to be some sort of joke?

[j_menz]

On the Rach 3 - it seems to me that the actual hardest part is finding an orchestra who can both do it justice and who will let you play with them, and a conductor both exceptionally capable and (ultimately) willing to bow to your decisions. These are rare combinations, people. Learning the bloody thing is easy in comparison.

[perfect_playing]

I wouldn't. Certainly not one that went 9 years out.

I believe I have already suggested pieces to look at next(ish). After that you would need to consider strengths and weaknesses they highlight and any technical gaps. Then work to strengthen the weaknesses and fill the gaps. Goals change over time as well, so any such list is always a work in progress.

I second these comments. As we learn more about the piano, listen to more pianists play and make changes to improve our playing, our view on music shifts ever so slightly, and our goals will thus invariably change.

@bonesquirrel It's ok to have your big dream and I admire you for that. But I do think it's more productive if you actually totally forget it for the time being, and instead direct your energies into mastering the basics. This also applies for pieces like HR2 and the Grieg, which you have mentioned in other threads: from what I've heard about you, those are also way beyond your current capabilities and at least for the time being, try and shut them from your mind.

Focus on improving with a good teacher who has a set of goals for you, and come back in a few years: you'll see that your views on these pieces you've been dabbling with will have transformed significantly.

[verqueue]

My collegue played the second concert by Rachmaninoff with second piano after 5 years of learning piano (piano, not the concert). But she devoted her whole time for playing piano in those years and had a very good teacher. She was able to play all the notes in correct time. There even were some phrases which sounded good, but still I don't know if anyone enjoyed this performance. Definitely it wasn't good performance of this piece. A couple years after that she her playing was avarange, so the fact that she quite managed to play the notes of the concert at so young age (she was around 13-14?) didn't make her special in a longer run.
It's just a story I wanted to share in this topic, nothing personal.

[j_menz]

My collegue played the second concert by Rachmaninoff

I'da thunk that Sergei himself played the second concert by Rachmaninoff by definition.

[diomedes]

Are you serious? Was this meant to be some sort of joke?

oh dear, you're a friendly one aren't you. Took 47 posts before i managed to offend someone with an opinion. Cute.

[bernadette60614]

Lots of replies, and I know have a clearer picture.

First, if you have a dream, I'd say go for it!  You've 15. If you live an average life span you've got another 60 or so years to go.  I couldn't predict my life at 40 when I was 15, so you could be playing Rach's 3 at 40!

I think being self-motivated is wonderful.  However, that can only take you so far.  Even if you go online to some of the piano tutorials, you'll learn something that you couldn't learn on your own.  I think if Rach 3 at 40 is your goal, make earning money for lessons part of reaching that goal.  I don't know where you live or what is available, but if you live in a city with some music schools, you could at least get a serious piano student to work with you at a fraction of the cost of a professional teacher,  Granted, this isn't ideal, but I think it will take you further down the road.

As for how much should you practice, I think it is less a matter of how much than what.  A teacher can tell you if you need to work on a specific technique, can direct you to the pieces which will support your progress. 

Good luck!  Passion is a wonderful thing!

[bonesquirrel]

Chopin - Ballade no.1 in G minor opus 23. That is the piece I believe I can play satisfactory, learn completely from sheet music, is the course of this year.

I have learnt a page of Chopin - Nocturne in C sharp minor op.posth. That is the 'hard' piece that I'm working towards, while I'm learning the second 'movement' of Beethoven's Sonatina (Romanze or whatever its called). Then Ill learn Beethoven's Ecossaise in G. Then Ill just keep going up from there.

Ill do my best to get a piano teacher.

But there is a possibility that I wont be able to help but attempt Hungarian Rhapsody No 2 about half way threw this year (that's only if I learn the Ballade first). I just want to power threw everything this year. Really, I just wish I could do what I wanted to do, which was have no life, an learn the Rach 3. But I don't think that this is a very good idea at this point.

[perfect_playing]

You'll benefit immensely from learning Chopin's first ballade. It has some technical obstacles e.g. fast running single notes and octaves. It is a very difficult to find a convincing interpretation of this piece but you should develop a lot musically from experimenting with different ways to shape it and bring out different shades of tone/colour.

It is worth having a read of https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=278.0

[bonesquirrel]

You'll benefit immensely from learning Chopin's first ballade. It has some technical obstacles e.g. fast running single notes and octaves. It is a very difficult to find a convincing interpretation of this piece but you should develop a lot musically from experimenting with different ways to shape it and bring out different shades of tone/colour.

It is worth having a read of https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=278.0

I have began learning Chopin's first Etude ('Waterfall'). I will working on it and little everyday, I am familiar with a practice routine that I will follow.

My main goal for this year is like I said, the ballade. But I will study the etude along side.

[bernadette60614]

Also, I"d say: Record yourself and compare your performance to that of a concert artist.  Your aspiration is to be a concert artist, and you might want to study the performances of artists.