How much should I practice a day???

[bonesquirrel]

The subject is the question. Most of you people know what level I am at (an how much I frustrate you all ) so there is no need to explain.

Also if there are any tips for practice that you want to throw in that would be appreciated aswell. I have chose to learn Beethoven's Sonatina 5 in G Major, ONLY THREW READING THE MUSIC, isn't that amazing lol.

[faulty_damper]

Technical:
Figure out alignment and movement ratios of the playing apparatus.

Musical:
Done in the mind.

[outin]

As little as possible, if you insist on playing in a way/things that give you pain.

[chopinlover01]

If you're playing Rach 3 (and it's giving you physical pain) while on the level of the Bach C prelude (which was a little underwhelming), then you should be practicing a LOT, but NOT on that material.
Some things you SHOULD practice:
Bach 2 part inventions
        3 part inventions

Mozart Sonatas
Clementi Sonatinas
The easier Chopin preludes if you like (4, 6, 7, and 20)
Chopin mazurkas
Haydn Sonatas

[cwjalex]

depends how good you want to be.  generally, you will be as good as the amount you practice.  just to be able to physically play grade 8 pieces it will probably take a minimum of 3-5 hours a day for a year or two.  

[j_menz]

Quality counts more than quantity. You can waste an awful lot of time practicing mistakes, or achieving nothing.

[cwjalex]

Quality counts more than quantity. You can waste an awful lot of time practicing mistakes, or achieving nothing.

very true.  but quality + quantity is a sure recipe for rapid growth.

[j_menz]

very true.  but quality + quantity is a sure recipe for rapid growth.

Only up to a point, I think. The muscles, the various other parts of the mechanism can only develop so fast and to overdo it is at best futile and at worst detrimental (either by causing injury or by just actually producing slower development). The brain, also, only takes in, processes and locks away so much at a time (and this may vary depending on a range of factors, from your health to what else you've been doing that day). Trying to cram more in simply doesn't work, and may actually slow learning down.

Up to whatever is jour optimum for the day, what you say is true. But there is no benefit in going beyond that.

[cwjalex]

Only up to a point, I think. The muscles, the various other parts of the mechanism can only develop so fast and to overdo it is at best futile and at worst detrimental (either by causing injury or by just actually producing slower development). The brain, also, only takes in, processes and locks away so much at a time (and this may vary depending on a range of factors, from your health to what else you've been doing that day). Trying to cram more in simply doesn't work, and may actually slow learning down.

Up to whatever is jour optimum for the day, what you say is true. But there is no benefit in going beyond that.

i agree but i doubt the OP is approaching anywhere near the limit of "too much practice".  would you agree that something like 3-4 hours a day is perfectly reasonable to practice?

[j_menz]

would you agree that something like 3-4 hours a day is perfectly reasonable to practice?

It depends on the day, and it depends on what you're practicing. If it's one of those off days, it's probably too much. If you're practicing really just one or two techniques, it's too much.

[cwjalex]

It depends on the day, and it depends on what you're practicing. If it's one of those off days, it's probably too much. If you're practicing really just one or two techniques, it's too much.

heh, well i guess this is where we will agree to disagree.  i think 3-4 hours a day is reasonable on any day, and is actually required if you want to improve quickly.

[outin]

heh, well i guess this is where we will agree to disagree.  i think 3-4 hours a day is reasonable on any day, and is actually required if you want to improve quickly.

For anyone who has to spend 8-10 hours daily on doing something demanding for living that is usually far too much to give any additional benefit or as j_menz says will just slow down the progress.

[bonesquirrel]

Thankyou everyone for your answers.

Also as for how good I want to be, well I have alot of goals outside of being a pianist. But my actual long term goal for playing piano, would actually be to perform the Rach 3 in an orchestra. So kind of like a David Helfgotty type dream, but I'm pretty annoyed because its hard to have other goals (I like working out, I want to be in the military, I'm learning how to speak other languages etc.) an also get into a position where I'm actually capable of performing something like the Rach 3.

But yeah that's my answer, I have (for a long time) been obsessed with the Rach 3, an that's my goal. I will consider myself complete when it comes to piano playing I do that.

On this subject, do you really think I need to give EVERYTHING if I am to do something like this one day? (Im talking like 10 years or maybe more)

[outin]

Also as for how good I want to be, well I have alot of goals outside of being a pianist. But my actual long term goal for playing piano, would actually be to perform the Rach 3 in an orchestra.
...

On this subject, do you really think I need to give EVERYTHING if I am to do something like this one day? (Im talking like 10 years or maybe more)

If that really is your dream the first thing you need to do is get a teacher. Then work for those 10 years and someone might be able to give you some kind of an answer.

[bonesquirrel]

If that really is your dream the first thing you need to do is get a teacher. Then work for those 10 years and someone might be able to give you some kind of an answer.

Thankyou.

[faulty_damper]

Playing Rach 3 with orchestra is never going to happen. Your preexisting mindset of how to play the piano and of creating music will be the reason.  If you don't change this, the first sentence in this paragraph will become true.

Everything you've ever heard about playing the piano is false. At best, it's a myth.  You believe the myth.  Which is exactly that. A myth.  As an, not reality nor based on realistic principles.  It's pure fantasy.  However, you won't even accept the notion that it's fantasy.  You don't know enough to realize this.  Realize: to make real.  In order to make real requires you to follow that fantasy out and realize that it's false.  Especially when you fail.  And fail. And fail again.  Over. And over.  And over again. If you are persistent and intelligent, you'll try alternatives to make it work.  If you succeed, then you'll realize that everything you've ever heard was wrong.  A myth.  A fantasy.  Not based on reality.

[outin]

Thankyou.

There's another option of course: Do something else and get filthy rich, then you can hire an orchestra to play with you even if your playing sucks

[j_menz]

If you succeed, then you'll realize that everything you've ever heard was wrong.  A myth.  A fantasy.  Not based on reality.

Wouldn't the paradox you've just created give one a nasty headache first?

[stoat_king]

@faulty_damper - Im intrigued by your comment.
Is it addressed to the OP, or a general comment to anyone of a similar level?

[cwjalex]

Playing Rach 3 with orchestra is never going to happen. Your preexisting mindset of how to play the piano and of creating music will be the reason.  If you don't change this, the first sentence in this paragraph will become true.

Everything you've ever heard about playing the piano is false. At best, it's a myth.  You believe the myth.  Which is exactly that. A myth.  As an, not reality nor based on realistic principles.  It's pure fantasy.  However, you won't even accept the notion that it's fantasy.  You don't know enough to realize this.  Realize: to make real.  In order to make real requires you to follow that fantasy out and realize that it's false.  Especially when you fail.  And fail. And fail again.  Over. And over.  And over again. If you are persistent and intelligent, you'll try alternatives to make it work.  If you succeed, then you'll realize that everything you've ever heard was wrong.  A myth.  A fantasy.  Not based on reality.

how can you say so much while at the same time manage to say so little...also, can you be any more vague?  what in god's name are you talking about?

[faulty_damper]

how can you say so much while at the same time manage to say so little...also, can you be any more vague?  what in god's name are you talking about?

Are you really admitting that you do not understand even when I repeated myself nearly half a dozen times?

@faulty_damper - Im intrigued by your comment.
Is it addressed to the OP, or a general comment to anyone of a similar level?

It's addressed to everyone.  Most people who have limited experiences (or no experience) will believe what they see and what they've heard and act accordingly.  But nearly all who have extensive experiences will say that it's wrong.  That's not the reality of what they do.

[chopinlover01]

Are you really admitting that you do not understand even when I repeated myself nearly half a dozen times?

Many of us don't, because you were vague as all hell...
Also, everything you've heard about piano is a myth? What if you heard it's fun? Or that pressing down a key makes a sound?

[bonesquirrel]

Right. I got a few things to say.

1. I have almost fully learnt Beethoven's Sonatina in G Major COMPLETELY from sheet music, first piece ever learnt from musical notation, I havent even done any exercises relating to muscial notation. I watch 1 Youtube video and jumped straight in.............. It took me yesterday (3 hours) and today (3 hours) to pretty much complete it. How is this an illusion? I mean not everything is perfect, but I think that I must not be in much of a 'la la' land if I can learn that in 6 hours and its my first time ever reading music. I mean I don't see where my fantasy lies to you, what is this god damn fantasy your on about? Is reading music and learning correct technique + Messing around with masterclass pieces a fantasy? I have no clue at all why you insist Im insane, which brings us to *see below*

2. Why do you just tell me "Playing the Rach 3 will never happen"?? How the hell do you know how good Ill be in 10 years and where I will be? It will either happen.... Or it wont.... You cant predict that. You sound like a Christian trying to explain how "God will walk the Earth one day" without any evidence to support it, or any reason, to think that's what will happen. All you have is faith in God.... If we translate that, all you have faith in, is my inevitable failure.

3. The I have forgotten to mention that I have a boxing injury from a year ago, I tore almost every ligament in my wrist. Maybe that's why playing the Rach 3 hurts so much for that specific hand, because my ligaments never healed correctly. I'm not messing around with it (much, like 10 minutes max) so we can just dismiss that.

4. The reply about becoming dirty rich and getting an orchestra to play even if your horrible is not only condescending and immature but its also illogical. If I was a horrible pianist, I would work towards being a good one so I could play it, then use my money to hire the orchestra, then play it. Why would I play a crap version of the Rach 3? Everyone will just remember me as the guy that played the really bad Rach 3, why would I label myself as that? Id rather not play it at all.

5. An lastly, this post was about how much I should practice a day............ That is it.... Maybe next time if someone asks me something I should make a new god damn topic for everyone question, or you could give me actual answers instead of making immature assumptions and assuming it helps my progress...... Well it doesn't, not even a little. J_menz has helped me realize my error and stop spending all my time attempting pieces that are way above my level (an replace it with learning music and more manageable pieces, so I thank j_menz. But the list pretty much ends there, 1 person.

[outin]

4. The reply about becoming dirty rich and getting an orchestra to play even if your horrible is not only condescending and immature but its also illogical. If I was a horrible pianist, I would work towards being a good one so I could play it, then use my money to hire the orchestra, then play it.

Of course you don't have to play it badly. Hiring an orchestra is a viable option and has been done before. But if you're not rich yet, you may find that it takes some time and devotion to get there and it also takes a lot of time and devotion to play the most difficult repertoire well. One may find it difficult to manage to do both. 10 years of daily practice may not be nearly enough if you want to play such a concerto well, unless you have some extremely rare talent and know exactly what and how to practice. And I doubt 20 years is enough to play it well if you don't get a teacher. If you get a teacher after 10 years, you will most probably spend the next few years learning a better technique instead of concertos.

Why would I play a crap version of the Rach 3? Everyone will just remember me as the guy that played the really bad Rach 3, why would I label myself as that? Id rather not play it at all.

You seem to have no idea how the world of classical music works. There are plenty of pianists out there who can learn to play a Rach concerto. But no-one will ask them to do it. Orchestra's don't go around looking for some unknown who can play such a piece.

The best change of you getting to play a concerto with an orchestra would be in some music school so we are back to getting a teacher. The sooner the better.

Learning the piano works well without a teacher if your goal is to make some music for your own pleasure and some friends and you settle for repertoire without high technical demands. But with such a goal as yours it simply doesn't work and the sooner you accept that the more change you have to ever realizing your dreams.

But remember, usually when you actually start doing something smart to achieve your goals, the goals tend to change too and become more based on reality. But most people just keep dreaming and doing things that will never take them any closer to actually realizing the dreams. It's your choice.

[faulty_damper]

Many of us don't, because you were vague as all hell...

That's because you're in so deep that all you can see are trees.
I'm describing the forest.  This is obvious to any non-musician or those who've seen so many trees they've learned it's a forest.

[diomedes]

But remember, usually when you actually start doing something smart to achieve your goals, the goals tend to change too and become more based on reality. But most people just keep dreaming and doing things that will never take them any closer to actually realizing the dreams. It's your choice.

There we go. Accept the unknown and element of change+time.

How much practice a day? As much as makes you happy. Your goal with Rach 3? I don't want to be unkind but it's unlikely. You'd have to develop to the point that learning music like that would be effortless, which would take enormous time and determination. But you never know, I have friends who run an orchestra, and they had a fellow who's career is not in music at all perform Liszts totentanze. I would imagine he wasn't young like 21 or anything, but he probably managed his life, never made a goal of that kind and then one day the opportunity presented itself.

I've had dreams before, so absolutely wild that i dared not even begin imagining them possible. I moved on with life. Then it actually happened. That said, you never know, so i'm not saying it's impossible.

But performing Rachmaninov 3 with an orchestra. Hm, don't think it gets much bigger than that, unless you wanna try the Busoni or something. It also depends on the orchestra. A somewhat approaching elderly lady at a dinner recently plays in a community orchestra, she asked me several times if i wanted to play with her orchestra I can just ask. If that's what i wanted i could have tried, but those elements there included the caliber of orchestra and connections. Those are 2 other elements to consider.

[bonesquirrel]

Yeah but again, saying straight forward that "playing the Rach 3 will never happen" is about as realistic as saying "playing the Rach 3 will defiantly happen". You don't know whats going to happen, neither do I. I'm saying "I want to play the Rach 3" your saying "You will never play the Rach 3". See the problem here, you predicting, I'm just goal setting. I'm not saying Ill achieve it for certain. Ok? Ok

Also stop saying I am god damn 'delusional' about classical music. I'm not delusional. I understand that orchestras don't go around looking for pianists. I understand not every orchestra is a Rach 3 orchestra. I understand its very difficult to even get in a position where its possible to even attempt such a piece. I UNDERSTAND BRO!!!! Stop telling me what I do and don't understand, your saying I'm an insane person, who knows nothing about anything, simply because I have a dream that exceeds your own.

I know what is realistic and what isn't. What I want from you is for you to tell me how to make my specific dream more realistic, not tell me how unrealistic it is. It doesn't make you sound smart or cool its just makes you sound like one of those people who try and sound smart by dismissing other people ideas with no evidence and going "Yeah! See I'm right". Like a Christian, not listening to evidence against God when you put them forward.

So either help me, or don't say anything. Right? Have you got it? Good! I'm glad!

[diomedes]

As much as humanly possible without injuring yourself. I'd advise being able to play all level of repertoire leading up to that level of difficulty. Meaning, don't start Rach 3 until how many years from now and before attempting it anything from a Rachmaninov Sonata to a Chopin Prelude should be easy to learn and execute.

And by as much as humanly possible is concerned, i mean not all of it at the piano. Piano is a discipline which presupposes hysterical memory work. I'm learning a Prokofiev concerto currently, and everywhere i go i carry around pages of the score. The notes arent that hard to play, but it's always more to memorize and when that's done there's more. So, if you're out and about memorize music and i all your other free time practice.

That's my practical advice. I'd like to do Rach 3 eventually bu i have other music i'd like to learn before. But the score sure has a lot of notes. ew

[outin]

Also stop saying I am god damn 'delusional' about classical music. I'm not delusional. I understand that orchestras don't go around looking for pianists. I understand not every orchestra is a Rach 3 orchestra. I understand its very difficult to even get in a position where its possible to even attempt such a piece. I UNDERSTAND BRO!!!! Stop telling me what I do and don't understand, your saying I'm an insane person, who knows nothing about anything, simply because I have a dream that exceeds your own.

I know what is realistic and what isn't. What I want from you is for you to tell me how to make my specific dream more realistic, not tell me how unrealistic it is. It doesn't make you sound smart or cool its just makes you sound like one of those people who try and sound smart by dismissing other people ideas with no evidence and going "Yeah! See I'm right". Like a Christian, not listening to evidence against God when you put them forward.

So either help me, or don't say anything. Right? Have you got it? Good! I'm glad!

Who's being immature now?

I gave you very specific advice. Twice. I'll do it one more time :
GET A TEACHER!

[bonesquirrel]

Who's being immature now?

I gave you very specific advice. Twice. I'll do it one more time :
GET A TEACHER!

You. You are still being immature, even in this reply. Only the first part though. There is a substantial difference between being immature and being aggravated, the offence being towards my general knowledge and intelligence, which you know nothing of, outside of very few subjects.

An ok, I already realized that the first time you said it. But when I request advice, all I want is the advice, that is it! Just because you give me advice (that I already knew) it doesn't give you the right to go on about a list other things that are not even relevant and are completely based of your personal opinion of me.

[perfect_playing]

Right. I got a few things to say.

1. I have almost fully learnt Beethoven's Sonatina in G Major COMPLETELY from sheet music, first piece ever learnt from musical notation, I havent even done any exercises relating to muscial notation. I watch 1 Youtube video and jumped straight in.............. It took me yesterday (3 hours) and today (3 hours) to pretty much complete it. How is this an illusion? I mean not everything is perfect, but I think that I must not be in much of a 'la la' land if I can learn that in 6 hours and its my first time ever reading music.

Can you post your playing of this piece in the audition room? I won't believe you've "pretty much completed it" until I hear your playing. You may still be in a 'la la' land: you think you've done it in 6 hours but I get the feeling there's a lot more going on in the music that you've failed to appreciate. Probably some basic things that you're not executing correctly. That's how it could be an illusion.

Instead of thinking of playing Rachmaninoff #3, learn some easier pieces. The fact that you're struggling to play the Bach C major prelude with the correct rhythm and notes suggests that there are many basics of piano playing that you need to master. Try mastering the basics before even considering playing a piece like Rach 3.

Practising is all about creating habits. If you are mucking around with Rach 3 and it's way beyond your ability, you are teaching yourself bad habits which will make it harder to learn the piece when you're actually capable of it.

Forget the Rach 3 for the time being. Master the basics and put together performances of pieces just above your ability. With more time, experience, and a better mindset, your goal may become attainable.

[bonesquirrel]

Can you post your playing of this piece in the audition room? I won't believe you've "pretty much completed it" until I hear your playing. You may still be in a 'la la' land: you think you've done it in 6 hours but I get the feeling there's a lot more going on in the music that you've failed to appreciate. Probably some basic things that you're not executing correctly. That's how it could be an illusion.

Instead of thinking of playing Rachmaninoff #3, learn some easier pieces. The fact that you're struggling to play the Bach C major prelude with the correct rhythm and notes suggests that there are many basics of piano playing that you need to master. Try mastering the basics before even considering playing a piece like Rach 3.

Practising is all about creating habits. If you are mucking around with Rach 3 and it's way beyond your ability, you are teaching yourself bad habits which will make it harder to learn the piece when you're actually capable of it.

Forget the Rach 3 for the time being. Master the basics and put together performances of pieces just above your ability. With more time, experience, and a better mindset, your goal may become attainable.

1 - I actually have 0 ability to even record anything at all right now, the only place I can record is at my Dad on an electronic piano, I use his microphone. I'm at my Mum right now with a upright, an no microphone. Sorry. But I have uploaded a recording of Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement ( https://clyp.it/3fftof1a ) and a recording of a simplified version of one of Bach's Minuets ( https://clyp.it/uup1dtzm ), both learnt from Synthesia. I do have a Chopin Prelude No 4 recording, I usually sound really good playing it, but it was really late when I recorded and uploaded it too Facebook and when I listened to it in the morning it was horrible. Everyone liked it, but they don't have much knowledge on Classical music, the people on my Facebook I mean.So I don't want to show it on this site, not that specific recording anyway......... I have now fully completed it, an got actually sounding pretty nice (like the expression) but Im not 100% sure of the timing in all of it. Your just going to have to take my word (at this time), sorry.

2 - That Bach Prelude was learnt from Synthesia, probably a big reason that the dynamics and all that were incorrect, I did also put the post name as "practice", so it was me practicing it, not actually playing it if that makes sense. I put it up for advice, to improve on it. Although, I did get all the notes 100% correct, I have even checked back on the score that I got from this website... So yeah, I don't know what your talking about there, maybe you just didn't hear some of the notes.

3 - I have stopped mucking around with it now. For that reason, lots of people on here have told me the same thing.

4 - I have. An I have. But thanks. If there is anything you want to suggest to me (like pieces I should learn or exercises I should be doing) Ill be open to your ideas.

[perfect_playing]

While I'd love to suggest possible pieces to learn to help you improve, I have very little knowledge of your ability and am not a teacher, so I'll leave it to those who are more experienced.

I'm currently learning Rachmaninoff's 3rd and have performed the first movement several times, and am now looking to finish off this amazing concerto. I believe I am capable of this task, as I have a great teacher and he said I should be able to do it. I have also played challenging pieces in the past to a high level, such as a number of Chopin etudes, Liszt etudes and Rach preludes, and also performed the Liszt Concerto No. 1 in E-flat. So I believe that if you one day want to learn Rach 3, you should have at least played and performed some big Romantic works to develop certain aspects of your playing etc.

[bonesquirrel]

While I'd love to suggest possible pieces to learn to help you improve, I have very little knowledge of your ability and am not a teacher, so I'll leave it to those who are more experienced.

I'm currently learning Rachmaninoff's 3rd and have performed the first movement several times, and am now looking to finish off this amazing concerto. I believe I am capable of this task, as I have a great teacher and he said I should be able to do it. I have also played challenging pieces in the past to a high level, such as a number of Chopin etudes, Liszt etudes and Rach preludes, and also performed the Liszt Concerto No. 1 in E-flat. So I believe that if you one day want to learn Rach 3, you should have at least played and performed some big Romantic works to develop certain aspects of your playing etc.

Ok, well I am studying music at my school this year for the entirety of it. Should that be enough? The music teachers primary instrument is piano and she has a history in live Jazz performance. Even though I'm into Classical, that wont matter right?

Also thankyou, that is helpful. Will you PLEASE upload a recording of you playing the 1st Rach 3 Movement? Or consider it? Also are you planning on playing it in an orchestra or are you just learning it to perform solo or what?

[stoat_king]

I have uploaded a recording of Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement ( https://clyp.it/3fftof1a ) and a recording of a simplified version of one of Bach's Minuets ( https://clyp.it/uup1dtzm ), both learnt from Synthesia.

I hope that no squirrels were harmed in the making of these recordings.

On a serious note, there is a way to turn the general negativity encountered in this thread to your advantage. Put a bet on you playing Rach 3 with a reputable orchestra.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the odds you get.

And when you win, the nay-sayers will be laughing on the other side of their faces.
Not that you'll care - you'll be too busy in the money-shower.

[perfect_playing]

Ok, well I am studying music at my school this year for the entirety of it. Should that be enough? The music teachers primary instrument is piano and she has a history in live Jazz performance. Even though I'm into Classical, that wont matter right?

Also thankyou, that is helpful. Will you PLEASE upload a recording of you playing the 1st Rach 3 Movement? Or consider it? Also are you planning on playing it in an orchestra or are you just learning it to perform solo or what?

Sorry but that still doesn't tell me anything about your level. I don't know the level of your "music school". I don't know how good your teachers there are, unfortunately. There are many teachers who have degrees, yet they aren't particularly good e.g. they're just doing it for their income and are only half-interested in their students.

I'll consider uploading a recording of myself playing (I've done the first movement with orchestra, and with a second piano). I will have to look for the recordings I made. I do hope to perform it with an orchestra one day, but I stress that I'm not obsessing over it. There are many great pieces out there besides the Rachmaninoff concertos, and I'd also like to learn more Beethoven as well. While many people consider Rach 3 to be the hardest, you don't have to perform or even learn it to be a great pianist. Good playing does not equate to playing the hardest piece, just like teachers often tell their students that they don't have to play super fast or loudly to play well. Keep that in mind as you traverse your musical journey.

[diomedes]

Try this approach, goals by interval:

Year 1. Beethoven Sonata 1 in f minor
Year 2. Chopin Ballade 1
Year 3. Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody 2
Year 4. Brahms Sonata 3
Year 5. Liszt Danse Macabre transcription
Year 6. Beethoven Hammerklavier
Year 7. Tchaikovsky b flat minor Concerto
Year 8. Some other bigass man eating concerto
Year 9. Rachmaninov 3

+ practice like hell.

Oh, and include gaspard de la nuit in there. It's the absolute height in pianistic precision and problem solving, in my opinion. If you can do that, you can do anything.

[bernadette60614]

First, not a teacher, and not a professional.

I gauge my practice by my prior track record.  I've been studying intently, if not as intently as you!, for about 1.5 years now.  I know that I can increase my progress by increasing by practice, but there is a point at which I reach rapidly diminishing returns. My concentration fades, and I risk just sitting down for practice, and just going through the motions.

I'd say you should look at your prior experiences, e.g., how long it took you to learn what pieces at what level of proficiency, and calibrate from there.  Each of us learns individually.

[j_menz]

Try this approach, goals by interval:

Interval?

That's the weirdest list ever published here, and that's saying something. It also manages, despite that weirdness, to never stray from the boringly conventional Quite a feat, really.

[bonesquirrel]

I hope that no squirrels were harmed in the making of these recordings.

On a serious note, there is a way to turn the general negativity encountered in this thread to your advantage. Put a bet on you playing Rach 3 with a reputable orchestra.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the odds you get.

And when you win, the nay-sayers will be laughing on the other side of their faces.
Not that you'll care - you'll be too busy in the money-shower.

No squirrels in my country.

I don't want to bet my dreams, just share them, an get advice on how to achieve it.

You cant assume that you will win just because you put everything you have into it, you can give everything you have, an still fail at something. But if you admit that you will fail before you have even tried, you have already failed.

[bonesquirrel]

Interval?

That's the weirdest list ever published here, and that's saying something. It also manages, despite that weirdness, to never stray from the boringly conventional Quite a feat, really.

What list would you suggest to me?

[bonesquirrel]

Sorry but that still doesn't tell me anything about your level. I don't know the level of your "music school". I don't know how good your teachers there are, unfortunately. There are many teachers who have degrees, yet they aren't particularly good e.g. they're just doing it for their income and are only half-interested in their students.

I'll consider uploading a recording of myself playing (I've done the first movement with orchestra, and with a second piano). I will have to look for the recordings I made. I do hope to perform it with an orchestra one day, but I stress that I'm not obsessing over it. There are many great pieces out there besides the Rachmaninoff concertos, and I'd also like to learn more Beethoven as well. While many people consider Rach 3 to be the hardest, you don't have to perform or even learn it to be a great pianist. Good playing does not equate to playing the hardest piece, just like teachers often tell their students that they don't have to play super fast or loudly to play well. Keep that in mind as you traverse your musical journey.

She is very interested in me lol I played Chopin's 4th Prelude (properly, not badly, like in my recording on Facebook that I mentioned) and Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement (like I did in the recording) and she was pretty impressed by it. She says I am the first person that has been to the school in almost 50 years that can actually play classical well on piano (which isn't saying much, if you walked in the school and looked at the students). For some reason she was surprised that I couldn't read music, but I could still learn classical pieces like the Chopin Prelude. Plus Im the only person in the entire school that has piano as their primary instrument, so there should be plenty of attention given to me.

Cool.

[j_menz]

What list would you suggest to me?

I wouldn't. Certainly not one that went 9 years out.

I believe I have already suggested pieces to look at next(ish). After that you would need to consider strengths and weaknesses they highlight and any technical gaps. Then work to strengthen the weaknesses and fill the gaps. Goals change over time as well, so any such list is always a work in progress.

[bonesquirrel]

First, not a teacher, and not a professional.

I gauge my practice by my prior track record.  I've been studying intently, if not as intently as you!, for about 1.5 years now.  I know that I can increase my progress by increasing by practice, but there is a point at which I reach rapidly diminishing returns. My concentration fades, and I risk just sitting down for practice, and just going through the motions.

I'd say you should look at your prior experiences, e.g., how long it took you to learn what pieces at what level of proficiency, and calibrate from there.  Each of us learns individually.

Beethoven's Sonatina in G Major = 3 days (Score)
Chopin 4th Prelude = 5 days (Synthesia)
3 minutes of Hungarian Rhapsody No 5 = 7 days (Synthesia)
Moonlight Sonata 1st Movement = Like a month, first piece ever learnt (Synthesia)
Half of Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C Sharp Minor = 1 day (Synthesia)
Introduction to Hugh Laurie's version of St James Infirmary = 4 hours or so (Youtube tutorial)

Those bottom 2 I obviously was very concentrated on. The Rachmaninoff Prelude a drank like 5 strong coffees late at night, I was obsessed with the Prelude at the time, I think I practiced from about 10pm - 5am. I got up to the really super fast part that descends down the keyboard. That Hugh Laurie thing was just after lunch, I sat down and it the piece in general turned out to be pretty easy to play.

Thats as accurate as a description your going to get. They both sounded good. It just depends how much I like I piece, thats what gauges my progress. If I hate something thats really simple, it'll take me like 5-7 days. If I love something thats more of an intermediate level, itll take me 1-2 days (assuming its not a super long piece, Ill probably get sick of it before I finish it)

[bonesquirrel]

I wouldn't. Certainly not one that went 9 years out.

I believe I have already suggested pieces to look at next(ish). After that you would need to consider strengths and weaknesses they highlight and any technical gaps. Then work to strengthen the weaknesses and fill the gaps. Goals change over time as well, so any such list is always a work in progress.

1 - Can you give me some more Beethoven pieces? Instead of Bach pieces. If there is no other option Ill do Bach, but if Beethoven is possible, then that would be good.

2 - Can I please keep learning Greig's Piano Concerto in A Minor? I don't get any pain from it and I really like it, plus I have the score. Can I just use it as a piece to work towards? I have the ability to play it, why shouldn't I use it?

[bonesquirrel]

Try this approach, goals by interval:

Year 1. Beethoven Sonata 1 in f minor
Year 2. Chopin Ballade 1
Year 3. Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody 2
Year 4. Brahms Sonata 3
Year 5. Liszt Danse Macabre transcription
Year 6. Beethoven Hammerklavier
Year 7. Tchaikovsky b flat minor Concerto
Year 8. Some other bigass man eating concerto
Year 9. Rachmaninov 3

+ practice like hell.

Oh, and include gaspard de la nuit in there. It's the absolute height in pianistic precision and problem solving, in my opinion. If you can do that, you can do anything.

Year 8 is pretty unclear lol. In fact Id rather use those 9 years to learn hard pieces that are not entire Concertos, I might learn a few. But my progress doesn't necessarily have to be built up by painfully long Concertos, that I don't even like.

EDIT: When I said really long Concertos, what I really meant was ANY really long piece, Concerto or not. Out of that whole list, the only pieces I like is the Hungarian Rhapsody and the B flat minor Concerto, an kind of the Brahms Sonata. An of course, the main goal.

[j_menz]

1 - Can you give me some more Beethoven pieces? Instead of Bach pieces. If there is no other option Ill do Bach, but if Beethoven is possible, then that would be good.

You can certainly do more Beethoven, but you really must do the Bach. It teaches you things you need to know, both for further Beethoven and for Rachmaninoff.

2 - Can I please keep learning Greig's Piano Concerto in A Minor? I don't get any pain from it and I really like it, plus I have the score. Can I just use it as a piece to work towards? I have the ability to play it, why shouldn't I use it?

As a hobby, not as an alternative to what you should be doing.

[perfect_playing]

Sorry but it seems as if only one of my performances was recorded, but the sound quality was pretty bad so I really don't want to upload it. Also I don't know how to upload recordings. But when I next perform it I'll record it using better equipment and upload it.

Also what is a Synthesia? You should practise on an actual piano.

[j_menz]

Also what is a Synthesia? You should practise on an actual piano.

 

Get your google fixed.

[outin]

An ok, I already realized that the first time you said it. But when I request advice, all I want is the advice, that is it! Just because you give me advice (that I already knew) it doesn't give you the right to go on about a list other things that are not even relevant and are completely based of your personal opinion of me.

Oh, grow up. I have every right to write whatever I want unless breaking the forum rules. And it's all relevant because getting to perform and becoming good at the piano involves much more than just sitting down and practice a lot or picking certain pieces to practice. You will see that one day if you let yourself be guided by someone who knows what he's doing.

Let me make this absolutely clear:
I do not think your goal is impossible. It might even be somewhat realistic if you do the right things now. You are only 15, don't seem to have any major issues that would stop you from being good at the piano and you have already learned some things. Big hands won't hurt with Rach either. But what you are doing now is asking advice from people you know absolutely nothing about and pick and choose from that advice what seems nice to you. That won't get you to your goal. Self-learned pianists simply don't go around performing big classical concertos. For any one possible exception, there will be thousands of failures.

If you get a good piano teacher now a lot can happen. You can still be accepted to a music school where it's possible to get to perform, even with an orchestra. Even if you never make a big career out of music, you'll get connections that may help you reach your goal one day. But you need a piano teacher and private lessons NOW. The school music lessons is not the same.

If you feel it's not possible to get piano lessons because of money or other factors, are you sure? Have you considered all options? Do you want this enough to give up something else to achieve your goal? Think about it. It's not about me, it's about you and what you want.