I need to understand Sustain/Sustain Peddles

[ryanhd]

Hello. I'm an beginner and I'd say I'm just about crossing into the intermediate level, but there's something very simple that's bothering me. Simply put, I have a Digital Keyboard Yamaha PSR E343 and I don't know if notes across all kinds of keyboard instruments are supposed to sustain or not. Let me elaborate:

It's happened multiple times now, where I try to learn a song, get a little bit in and then hit this point where it seems like you need three hands to be able to play it.

First this happened on 'Matrix - Clubbed to Death' where at the 36s second mark it became apparent that I need a sustain peddle to maintain that low G after just hitting it quickly to continue playing the middle section with my left hand. Problem is the low G sound dies out very quickly on my keyboard.

If my assumption is correct and traditional pianos don't sustain all the time, this women must be using her sustain peddle when she presses the G at the 43 second mark because it lasts a lot longer than mine.

I may be wrong on this one, but to my frustration this happened again on 'Opening Title - The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time'

At 17 seconds it seems to me like you need both hands to play all of those blue notes and keep them held to sustain the sound, but in order press the green notes you need to lift your right hand off thus ending the sustained sound.

When this women plays her notes last incredibly long even when she hasn't got them held in.

So to recap, I need to know three things basically.
1. Should all keyboards have sustained sound? (I don't see how that could be the case though with songs where you don't want sustained sound)
2. Do I need a peddle to play those songs above?
3. Are those other players using peddles?

Thank you!

[indianajo]

I've lost my youtube capability due to "obsolesent vulnerability" of the plug-in, until I back up my hard drive and meddle with my operating system, so I won't be watching these.  sometimes "updates" lock up the computer entirely, especially when the suppliers assume I can afford hardware in the multi-gigahertz capability.  Most modern computers go straight into boxes to go to third world countries for recycling of the gold.  No resale allowed.
But a piano should sustain for a couple of minutes at least, as long as the pedal is down. I was lucky my Mother had bought a very competent Everett console in 1947, which was fast enough and standard enough carry me through all my six years of lessons.  You are in luck, pianos of this sort can be had now for $200, if you don't mind sorting out the good ones from the junk, renting a truck and carrying it yourself, and tuning it yourself.   Brands to watch for include Sohmer, Baldwin, Hamilton by Baldwin, Mason & Hamlin, chickering, Wurlitzer, goodright, Steinway all pre globalization models. the names now have been applieed to trash by the importers. 
Read topics under the intrument category where I have posted how to tell a good piano from a piece of furniture, or a worn out piano.
An additional feature of some grand pianos, is that The notes held down as the middle pedal is applied, remaing sustained, without the other ones sustaining.  I have some pieces from Scott Joplin and Moussorgski that used that feature.  Some console pianos have a left half sustain pedal in the middle, that can be used for some pieces that need differential bass sustain. It sounds as if your piece is in this category. 
Good luck hunting. 

[1piano4joe]

Hi ryanhd,

Those kind of keyboards typically have short note duration. A pedal allows one to remove their hand and the note keeps sounding. The note still "dies out" in the same amount of time only the hand isn't holding down the key.

It may be possible to strike that low "G" a little louder so that it lasts longer. It would on an acoustic piano.

At 61 keys and no sustain pedal I would say you have simply outgrown that keyboard and need a better instrument.

I hope this helps, Joe.

P.S. Welcome to Pianostreet!

[timothy42b]

Your 61 key keyboard is touch sensitive but not weighted. 

You need to upgrade to 88 weighted keys that will emulate an acoustic piano much better, and they all come with sustain pedals.

The Casio series in the $500 range would all be adequate. 

[ryanhd]

Hi ryanhd,

Those kind of keyboards typically have short note duration. A pedal allows one to remove their hand and the note keeps sounding. The note still "dies out" in the same amount of time only the hand isn't holding down the key.

It may be possible to strike that low "G" a little louder so that it lasts longer. It would on an acoustic piano.

At 61 keys and no sustain pedal I would say you have simply outgrown that keyboard and need a better instrument.

I hope this helps, Joe.

P.S. Welcome to Pianostreet!

I must say that's not the impression I got of what a sustain peddle might do. I mean, if the note still dies out in the same amount of time as it would if you just hit the key and let go, what's the point in having one? I don't really know how 'the note can keep sounding' yet it 'dies out in the same amount of time'

[timothy42b]

I must say that's not the impression I got of what a sustain peddle might do. I mean, if the note still dies out in the same amount of time as it would if you just hit the key and let go, what's the point in having one? I don't really know how 'the note can keep sounding' yet it 'dies out in the same amount of time'

No, he's correct.  A sustain pedal on an acoustic piano prevents the damper from coming down and silencing the string.  The string will keep sounding until it dies out naturally, which doesn't take all that long.  An electronic sustain pedal just mimics what the acoustic does.  It won't hold the sound out indefinitely like on an organ. 

[1piano4joe]

HI ryanhd,

If you hit a key and let go the sound should stop immediately, period. If you don't let go and continue to hold that key depressed with your finger the sound will get softer and softer, slowly dying out and then stop either entirely or to the point where you can no longer hear it.

The problem with that is your hand is now busy holding that key with that finger and can only reach so many notes from there. Wouldn't it be great if somehow, someway through magic that note could keep sounding without your finger needing to hold that key down? Wouldn't it be great if your hand was now suddenly free to play notes further away?

That's exactly what the pedal does. Think of it as your "third hand".

It's like your finger is still there, holding the key down, keeping the note sounding. Think of the key now being held with your toe if this makes it easier for you to understand. So, now your toe is holding the note but it still will get softer and softer, slowly dying out. THE SUSTAIN PEDAL MAKES THE NOTE LONGER COMPARED TO PRESSING ANY KEY AND LETTING GO  BUT NOT ANY LONGER THAN HOLDING THE KEY WITH YOUR  FINGER.

The faster you remove your finger the shorter the note (sound). This is called staccato. If you remove your finger fast to move your hand to a different positon than that previous note will stop sounding immediately and sound staccato.

This may not be what the composer intended or the sound you want. So a pedal, lets one control the duration of sustain with the foot. This is usually until a change of harmony which let's just say is a chord change.

In addition, the pedal affords freedom to the hand to play anything at all. This means you could play 7 or 8 notes anywhere on the keyboard and the pedal will keep them sounding. This can create beautiful harmony or noise.

A better instrument can hold the duration of a note much longer than a keyboard that only lasts a few seconds at most. A watch with a second hand could be used to time this duration. Press any note and measure with the watch how long it sounds holding it with your finger before it stops. This is just like measuring how long you can hold your breath.

If one did the same thing with the pedal (toe) HOLDING DOWN the key like they did with their finger HOLDING DOWN the key, the note duration should be EXACTLY the same.

Try measuring this note duration either at a friend's house who owns a piano or wherever you have access to one (bring your watch) and you should observe how much longer holding that note with your finger or pedal lasts on a better instrument.

Sorry, but I can't make it any clearer than that.

I hope this helps, Joe.

[timothy42b]

In addition, the pedal affords freedom to the hand to play anything at all. This means that even though you only have ten fingers you could play 20 or 30 notes cause the pedal keeps them sounding. This can create beautiful harmony or noise.

One correction to your otherwise excellent explanation:  digital pianos have limitations in polyphony, and the cheap one he has is never going to let 20 or 30 notes sound.  The quickest way to get dropouts with a cheap digital is hold the pedal down while playing. 

[gyzzzmo]

Digital piano pedals are indeed limited, but not until you reached a pretty advanced level.

99% of the people here over-use the sustain-pedal and do not understand when to quickly release-press it again.

I can give some general guidance, but there's no 'check' whether this general guidance is applied properly or not. The general guidance: When the notes in a piece lead to a new chord, quickly release and press the sustain pedal before this chord. In baby language: if you hear too much interference of notes/chords, you're too late.
As long as you can create a fluent effect without usage of the sustain pedal by holding the notes, youre doing a great job. Sustain pedal is only a help when you cant create a 'fluent effect' without using it.

If you recognize this, but know you cant really apply it yourself, you should get yourself a teacher. You dont need one for years, just get a teacher untill you think one doesnt really give you any advantage.

Gl, Gyzzzmo

[1piano4joe]

Hi timothy42b,

His model in particular has 32 note polyphony. So, this could allow 8 notes to sound if 4 oscillators were used per sound.

That is on the lower end but is to be expected in a cheaper model. You pay for what you get.

Some digital pianos have 128 or even 256 note polyphony in the higher end models.

Thank you for the correction, Joe.

[timothy42b]

Hi timothy42b,

His model in particular has 32 note polyphony. So, this could allow 8 notes to sound if 4 oscillators were used per sound.

But that's only 4 notes in stereo.  So if he's using both speakers, and he's played the root of the chord doubled in the left hand and held it with the pedal, and tries to play a triad in the right, he's exceeded his limit. 

[ryanhd]

Well, I've just gotten a sustain peddle but I think it may be the wrong one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00063678K?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

On Clubbed to Death I hold down the peddle at the same time as pressing that lower G and it holds the note for much longer while I have it pressed in. Problem is...after pressing that G I need to immediately play other notes. So the peddle is pressed down and the G sounds, but so do the other notes because I have it pressed in, but if I let go of the peddle in order to play the other notes, the G dies out immediately.

I assumed somehow that the peddle would allow me to prolong that G note, then I could let it go and play the other keys normally.

[j_menz]

Nope. It's the right one. That's what they do.

You may need to play around with it for a bit to start to get the feel for what it does and how you can use it. You'll find that if you keep it down during passages that are basically the same harmony, it sounds OK - possibly a little strange at first, but you'll get to like it (in moderation). If you hold it down across harmonic changes, though, it will sound really quite horrible. It takes practice to get it to sound right in any piece.

If it's any incentive, the answer to your original question 3 is "yes', and it's this sort of pedal. It can work to do wonderful things (Chopin called it the soul of the piano), but it requires practice - it can also do terrible things if used inappropriately.

[timothy42b]

I hold down the peddle at the same time as pressing that lower G and it holds the note for much longer while I have it pressed in. Problem is...after pressing that G I need to immediately play other notes. So the peddle is pressed down and the G sounds, but so do the other notes because I have it pressed in, but if I let go of the peddle in order to play the other notes, the G dies out immediately.

I assumed somehow that the peddle would allow me to prolong that G note, then I could let it go and play the other keys normally.

There are pedals like that.  My digital has 3 pedals.  But if you have the more common single pedal, it sustains everything, there's no way around it. 

[indianajo]

Your 61 key keyboard is touch sensitive but not weighted.
The Casio series in the $500 range would all be adequate.  

You have bought a device with rubber keys that acts like ****. the rubber key contacts will be worn out in ten-fifteen years whether you use it or not.  
The above posts asks you to buy more **** in an ever increasing spiral, thus fulfilling the plan of the global market dictators.
I suggest you buy a $200-$600 device with 88 note polyphony, and a two minute sustain, a used wood piano. if you buy the right one, you will be done buying and can concentrate on practicing.  
See this link for more search criteria, on how to make in informed choice:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=56680.0
many people are lazy and won't go out to find a fifty year old survivor wood piano that has about five hours on it.  Pianos are not cars, and don't deteriorate because the brass wire harness connections won't pass electrons anymore.  Only at eighty years or in extremely cheap models does the glue in the clevises become unreliable. 

[rmbarbosa]

You may wish to download "possibilities of tone color by artistic use of pedals", by Teresa Carreno.
And "Guide to the proper use of the pianoforte pedals" by Alexander Niiikitich Bukhovtsev.
You may freedownload both.
Best wishes
Rui

[hardy_practice]

What you wanted was a sostenuto pedal.  Not sure if they do those for digital.

[chopinlover01]

They do make them for digital- but only for the ones upwards of 500-600 USD if I understand right.

[nystul]

You don't actually need a sostenuto pedal for this type of thing.  Just a regular damper (sustain) pedal.  It is OK and often desirable to have the short notes ring out longer than their written value in pieces like this.  It's a matter of realizing when the chord is changing, and releasing the pedal to stop the old chord from ringing before pressing it again.  If you listen closely to the examples posted of people with real pianos, those people are using the damper pedal and the high notes are ringing for longer than the written value.  That works on piano as long as you don't blur the harmony by having the notes ring into a new chord.