best piano for community centre/arts council funding

[nj61]

Hi there - am currently putting together a grant app for a music project targeting mental health/elderly etc, for which we would need to replace our horrible old unfixable piano.  I had planned to scout out a decentish second hand piano, but the arts council will understandably only fund new instruments.  So am looking to quote for a reasonably priced new piano, which won't get constant play, but will sometimes have random hirers (eg nursery school) using it, and will also need to be good enough for professionals.  not amazing, an upright, but something they aren't going to sigh/tut at when they see it.

I would like to buy from a local place which could also provide ongoing servicing etc, but the only 'cheap' model they have is a reid sohn at 2.5k which is rather ugly.  Ugly doesn't matter too much, but it kind of does.  Our centre already looks shabby enough, and spending 2.500 on something so 70's brown doesn't appeal.  What sort of sound/quality is this instrument?  Is it sturdy?

A safer bet would seem to be a Yamaha at around the same price. 

Any other suggestions?  Or experience applying for arts council funding?
Any thoughts appreciated ta

[richard black]

Much though I dislike most Yamaha pianos, I would recommend the brand in this case. For a start, it's a very well-known brand and everyone who's ever been anywhere near a piano will recognise it. Plus they do actually hold together reasonably well in that kind of environment. You get more piano for your money from some of the Chinese brands but they are likely to need more looking after in the not-too-distant future.

[quantum]

Would the arts council consider a second-hand piano that was backed by the service of a reputable piano tech?  A new piano will still require a regular plan of service, and is by no means a guarantee for a maintenance free instrument. 

[bronnestam]

Maybe you should consider a digital of better quality. The best ones look nice and are good to play at - they don't need maintenance or tuning and they are easier to move around when needed.  (However, they do need an electrical outlet ...) There are cheap digitals that look, sound and feel like toys, but there are also better ones. I think you can find a decent Yamaha Clavinova, for instance, within the budget you talk about.

[nj61]

re: restoring, I think this is quite rare for arts council funding but they will occasionally do it for pianos.  I think ours is prob not worth it.
My ma has a great electric piano, but I am not sure...  there could be some pros, its just a bit depressing somehow.

We have a technician/supplier coming out next week to site visit/assess etc, which should help.  ta

[rachmforever]

If you have opportunity bought normal piano don't buy electric.

[michael_c]

If it has to be new I'd go for Yamaha or Kawai: solid, dependable, hold the tuning well, reasonably capable of resisting the attacks of tiny would-be pianists who bang on it louder than the most heavy-handed professionals...

So am looking to quote for a reasonably priced new piano, which won't get constant play, but will sometimes have random hirers (eg nursery school) using it, and will also need to be good enough for professionals.  not amazing, an upright, but something they aren't going to sigh/tut at when they see it.

Make sure that there is a budget for tuning and servicing. If it's not in tune, professionals will sigh and tut no matter what brand it is.

[richard black]

Yeah, Kawai, of course, good suggestion.

And of course a new, real, piano will get a lot more respect, especially from non-musicians, than any kind of electronic keyboard.

[nj61]

We are getting the supplier/tuner in so he can quote for ongoing maintenance as well as instrument itself/advise on location and security etc.  Unfortunately they don't supply Yamaha, and I think its worth buying from them to get the goodwill helping out/advice at this stage.

I don't envisage any children playing it - we have a nursery in the space at times and it would be nice to let them use it, but to play for the children rather than as a toy. 

Irritating thing is, we wanted to be able to justify buying a new piano, and the cost of maintenance, by showing we would also use it for fundraising events ie hire professional musicians/ensembles who our users might not otherwise be able to access, and ask for donations to go towards maintenance costs. The arts council wont fund a project involving fundraising or income generation, so we need to rethink a bit.  Seems a stupid policy to me, if they want their investments to lead to sustainable projects which provide ongoing work for artists, but there you are.

[bronnestam]

My ma has a great electric piano, but I am not sure...  there could be some pros, its just a bit depressing somehow.

Eh? Like "pros" don't play on digitals as well. Most pros have one in these days, as a compliment to their acoustics. They have the same problem as the rest of us, sometimes they find it beneficial to turn the volume down. Or to connect with some other recording. If they are to perform on an acoustic grand they need to practice on an acoustic grand, but if the venue offers a digital, then they will play on the digital. But most performers, amateurs or pros, require some time to prepare, that is, some dress rehearsal at the piano they are supposed to perform with.

What is important, though, is that the loudspeakers of a digital, which is to be used for performance, are of good quality. 

There is also a difference between "electrical" piano and a "digital". Electrical pianos have been around since the 60's or even earlier, and they have a very particular sound. Digitals are aimed to sound and feel like acoustics.

[justharmony]

I don't usually get into recommending any particular brand of piano... but I have to say that if you can figure out the maintenance budget challenge in terms of your funders, etc. I, too, would recommend Yamaha.... for the reasons mentioned above, and for one other important reason that has to do with the seniors you mentioned as being an integral part of this pianos's purpose.  In my experience playing for a variety of folks, I have noticed that those who are more senior in age seem to really prefer bright pianos (and not perceive them as terribly bright).  I suspect this has to do with high frequency hearing loss that happens to us all over time.  Yamahas tend to be bright.  Not all of them.  But many of them.  Might be worth considering regardless of whether you go with a real piano OR a digital system of some kind (in which you'd really have to look into the sound reproduction qualities of the speakers, etc. ).  

I will add that, as a sometimes-pro player myself, a digital is not attractive to me, but rather a sometimes-necessary compromise.  Of course, when a real piano is not maintained, a digital might become the more desirable choice... but that is a case of dealing with the least UNpalatable choice.  A well-maintained, quality instrument serves as a delicious invitation to me, personally.  I might add, too, that if you can somehow get yourself into a decent grand of some sort, that will serve better to attract and serve musicians of all types.  If you do have to go with an upright, though, get a tall studio upright.

As for your funding requirements... at some point a digital piano will break or become obsolete and you will have additional costs down the road regardless.  I'm not sure how any funder could expect that you would NOT have any additional costs down the road that you would have to expect and plan for in whatever manner you could reasonably do so.  Not that it's wise to question funders too much... but... maybe some additional clarification of some sort might help?

You might also see what networking you can do in terms of getting matching funds from donors, or even just a straight-up donation of an instrument from some local company or private party that carries no restrictions.  It's always worth a try asking and sometimes it's surprising what people are willing to give if you state your case well enough (and do so face to face, btw - yes, I've done some fund-raising myself).  It doesn't hurt to offer something to them in return, too... something that can be a sort of "win-win"... like a plaque offering them permanent recognition (and publicity), or offering them publicity opportunities by mentioning them in event publicity, etc. (esp. if you had a debut event featuring the instrument).  Just a couple thoughts. 

I'll be interested in hearing how this goes!  Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more about it... I'd be interested in hearing more about your project and where you are...   Whatever the case, good luck!!!

JH

[nj61]

thanks again for all the input.

re: pros, I meant as opposed to cons!  My ma does sometimes play for choirs etc and so needs to be able to practice late, combined with living in a flat the electric/digital/clavinova thing makes sense.  She plays chopin on it very nicely but would be dissatisfied if asked to play one for performance unless it was a small space.  our hall seats about 150 and has a stage and wooden floor etc so it would be a shame to miss the acoustics of an acoustic, lol.

I too would prefer a Yamaha because it seems reputable etc.   But, there is only one local good piano supplier.  he is also a really nice tuner/service guy who when tuning my piano has given extra time where needed, been patient and friendly etc.  I think it might be worth buying a kawai from him in order to get his goodwill

A small grand would be pretty awesome, and we do have a stage where it could live.  however, it would then be harder to let anyone but professionals use it.  If it was not on the stage but eg just in front of it, it could be used by a wider range of people (which our funders would favour)

We would anticipate covering maintenance ourselves if needed.  it was more that, if the arts council funded us putting on music events for eg a year, and then the funding stopped, we would either then have to stop the events, (and therefore employment opportunities, as well as opportunities for the community) or suddenly start charging, which would irritate people. it would make more sense just to ask for donations from the start really.

Cheers for the fundraising suggestions, I have a few other ideas to look into, including meeting with another arts organisation to consider funding this jointly and rotating the location which would be cool - as long as we get a piano

[justharmony]

Sounds like you have plenty of ideas - a great thing when you're trying to get creative about funding a project like this!

I had a couple more thoughts...
First, I don't know why you say that if you had a grand on a stage that that would be harder to "let" non-professionals use it... ?  Why would that be?  A grand piano is certainly not more fragile or delicate of an instrument than an upright.  Modern pianos are actually pretty hardy creatures, all things considered.  Someone who doesn't know how to play might create irritating noises on such an instrument, but it would be difficult for them to actually cause injury to the instrument.

It seems a lot of people get protective over their instruments, and to some degree that is understandable, given the cost to acquire and to maintain one.  However, there is sooo much good and joy that can be had in offering access to an instrument... in sharing that with people - perhaps especially for those who are ill, or elderly, as you mention.   

I visited Mayo clinic in Rochester MN once, and one thing struck me very strongly.  They have at least two very nice and very well-maintained instruments in very very public places.  I was absolutely stunned that there were no keys, no signs, no ropes... they sat there for anyone to use - a glorious invitation.  And boy.... did people live up to that invitation.  It was absolutely wonderful, refreshing, and joyous in the middle of a place in which many were suffering.  It's truly a beautiful thing, in my eyes... and, actually, you might look to them for documentation of the benefits of such action as justification for your own project.  Clearly this was an intentional thing on the part of Mayo.  They offer those instruments for a reason. 

There is a lot of documentation of the benefits of music - and it can be truly stunning.  I might also recommend a film (might still be streaming on netflix) called "Alive Inside".  It documents the benefits of music for those who are elderly, ill (including those with mental illness), or impaired... and it is a beautiful and inspiring film (in my opinion).  Probably there are some great references that you might find through such a film that might back up your funding request also.

Well.  I think it's fantastic (obviously) that you're attempting to provide access to music to...well... anyone, really.  Definitely keep us posted. 

JH