talent?

[Greentea028]

I think im starting to think that perhaps piano playing abilities have to do with the amount of coordination that you are born with.  This friend i have is note perfect, and can play some opus 25 chopin etudes with much ease. I am currently struggling with the winter etude that i have had for 3 months, and i cant seem to get it to 3 minutes (my best is just under 4). So, do you think it could be genetics that affect the pianist's abilities? we have been playing piano for about the same amount of time (10 years). we are the same age give or take. I've been noticing his dexterity from non piano related activities (ping pong/videogames).

What do you guys think of this?

[Daniel_piano]

I think im starting to think that perhaps piano playing abilities have to do with the amount of coordination that you are born with.  This friend i have is note perfect, and can play some opus 25 chopin etudes with much ease. I am currently struggling with the winter etude that i have had for 3 months, and i cant seem to get it to 3 minutes (my best is just under 4). So, do you think it could be genetics that affect the pianist's abilities?

No, not your genetics; but the non piano related activities you two have been experiencing during your life
We all starts our life as neutral, but if you started the piano at 6 or 8 you already had aquired a lot of extra abilities through your experiences and activities
For example when I started the piano I had already developed dexterity compared to my classmates (we were all the same age)
It was not due to genetics but due to the fact that I had been studying clay modelling since I were 4/5 and I developed my desterity (usefull to piano too) with clay modelling
Remember that people talk about genetics like it was the answer to it all, but this is not the truth
The fault is of television and sensationalism that always rumor of complicated and uncertain sciences as something sure or miracoulous
Gene can't express themselves without an external factor!
You may have genes that make your heart weaker but you won't develop an heart attack if your lifestyle (the external factor) is sound
All the genes that have been showed to be certain discoveries (while a lot of other genes are just theories already disproved or not yet proved) are about diseases
That's is, our parents due to their lifestyle (or their parents lifestyle) transmict their weakness to us, the strong points are all alike in every human being
So it's much about how strong and good genes you have, but how your genetics is normal compared to someone who has a weak genetic (gene that can't be expressed without an extarnal factor)
All those rumours abot genes for depression, genes for memory, genes for empathy, genes for kindness are all just rumorous without scientific basis
The only certain facts about genes are now on the pathological field
So there's no genes for dexterity, a part from your life experiences that, by the way, could change your genes during the course of your life
But no one is born with more dexterity than someone else

You also have probably found the strong point of your friend technique that incidentally is your weakest point
When you'll find your strong technique point it will be your friends' weakest point

I've a friend who is a genius with thirds, he never struggled with them and always play them perfectly without any practice
I on the other hand hate thirds and I'm terrible at playing them
Incidentally he is not good with octaves and I've never struggle with octaves on the other hand I played them naturally from the first day I learned them

but it's not a matter of genes but how the experiences of your life has affected your technique
I clay modelled, draw and swim, he played martial arts, football and soccer
Different life experience, different technique abilities

Daniel

[MarkAllison]

What do you guys think of this?

Is there any difference in the way you practice? Is there any difference in the amount of time that you put in to practice? I'm fairly certain that these two parameters will have an affect, but not 100%. Just wondered.

[Sketchee]

Concentrating on what is and what isn't talent too much won't help in a practical sense.  While examining the effects of talent is interesting philosophy, in the case of you and your friend the question is really about gaining skill over time.  You might both have been concentrating on different aspects.  It would be doubtful that any two people practiced for exactly the same amount of time with the same methods, studying the same pieces the same exact way.  It can't even be said who really learned better or worked ahard as he could theoretically have been concentrating on short term goals, while you may have concentrated on long term goals.

If everytime there's a problem with one's playing we could all go "Well that's just a lack of talent!"  If we're doing well, we could go "Oh that's talent!"  However, labeling it in that case wouldn't help.  Instead one could, in the case of a problem, continue identifying the problem and working out solutions.  When doing well, one can examine what they did to get to that level of proficiency, then apply what they learn as a method to learn other things and continue improving on that skill.

It might be a good idea for you and your friend to exchange notes and ideas on practice, talk about your lessons, how you approach piano compared to him, etc.  I know at school, I'll often see people in classes walking around or talking or anything, while I'm doing my assignments for the class.  Then at the end of the day they wonder why they didn't understand the assignment or didn't get anything done.  I'm not saying this is you at all, but it's an example of how people can think they're doing the same things and not realize the differences.  People often talk about "practicing x number of hours a day"; while the amount of time could be specific, the word "practicing" is very vague.

As for the Chopin etude, continuing working on it but try working on it differently than you have been.  Try breaking it down into sections,  doing hands seperate, etc.  There are a lot of practice tips on the board that you can probably apply.

Finally, don't get too caught up on the progress of others. Concentrate on your own and doing your own best.

[bernhard]

Daniel is right, Mark is right and Sketchee has just outlined a most wonderful philosophy. I could not agree more. 

Here is another side to this problem.

Excellence in any area has more to do with attention to detail than with nay other factor, including “talent” or “environment” or “genetics”. It may well be that these things actually determine attention to detail in the first place.

Here is an example I observe almost every single day in different guises.

Today I was teaching a student how to play a C major scale at top speed straightaway – that is without any need for years of practice – She was a beginner and we were just starting to learn scales. Here are the steps I used.

1.   We started by playing the scales in chords. Right hand: CDE (fingers 123) played together and FGAB (fingers 1234) played together. First aim: to get this pattern of notes and fingerings firmly ingrained and memorised. This involved repeating CDE several times, and then shifting the right hand all over the keyboard playing CDE as a chord. This is really a feat of visual co-ordination: you must identify visually the relevant keys and once your eye locks on it, your hand will always hit it right. So the training here is in visual recognition of the pattern and in “locking” the sight o the pattern you want to hit. Later on we will train to do this without resorting to sight. But for what I want to say here, it is not necessary to enter these details. Then we did the FGAB group and finally we played the C major scale all over the keyboard in clusters: CDE – FGAB – CDE – FGAB – etc.

2.   The next step was to break these clusters by “rolling the hand” rather then by finger movement. Again I will not spend much time explaining this here. It is easily demonstrated, and the student could do it with ease. At this stage, I pointed out to her, that she was already playing the two clusters at the scale at unbelievable speeds: infinite speed when plying the clusters (what can be faster then together?) and just a tiny bit slower then infinite speed when rolling the hand. The problem of course was moving the hand from E to F. That shift will always be the limit: you will only be able to play the scale as fast as you can shift the hand.

3.   Now comes the point of this somewhat lengthy explanation. I then proceeded to tell her that the way to practise this shift was to isolate it: Play the E with the 3rd finger, then displace the hand sideways so that the thumb plays the F. The aim is not only speed, but total accuracy.

4.   And now comes the fulcrum where this whole question hinges. She could move from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb) with great accuracy and speed. But her other fingers were all over the place. So I pointed this out to her, and demonstrated what her aim was: Not only he had to move fast and accurately from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb) – as her other fingers (234) should land exactly on top of GAB the moment her thumb arrived at F. That of course creates a whole universe of problems – including her resistance and revolt that she had this extra goal. As a good rebellious teenager, she was happy only in achieving the superficial aim of moving from E(3) to F(1), and was outraged that I would dare to suggest that she should add anything else to her work load. Nevertheless (being a black belt in five martial arts) I quickly convinced her to do as I was suggesting, and after a couple of minutes of mindful repetitions she could do it perfectly.

5.   Now the point here is this: Had I not paid attention to this sort of excruciating detail, she would have perhaps practised a whole week a perfect move from E to F, but a totally sloppy placement of the fingers that would be needed later on. At full speed, the scale would be a mess, because her fingers would be out of place, therefore either she would hit the wrong notes, or she would have to slow down to continually “reach for the keys” with the fingers and constantly readjust finger position. She would be practising a certain move, but she would be neglecting what I call preparation, that is a careful thought out strategy for the fingers to prepare for the next movements.

6.   So, anyone who is struggling with any passage/piece for months is doing something very wrong. And usually what is wrong is the “preparation” and the lack of attention to preparation. They hope that somehow if they just sit down at the piano for 10 hours a day improvement will somehow follow. It will not. In fact, if you are sloppy, that is all you will be practising: sloppy preparation with the obvious consequences. If you pay excruciating attention to details, after a couple of minutes of intensive concentrated and mindful practice, such details get ingrained into your subconscious and you do not need to think about them anymore. This is truly the secret of speed learning. But everyone wants to go on automatic pilot before they have acquired an automatic pilot!

7.   The only talent needed here is the talent for discipline. And believe me, this is no small talent.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chromatickler]

I am currently struggling with the winter etude that i have had for 3 months, and i cant seem to get it to 3 minutes

Why, in the name of RUDY would you want to do that? Is this all music means to you?? A Race to the finish line??? I am truly disgusted by this StopWatch mentality.

[Rockitman]

Good stuff as usual Bernhard.  I really love reading your messages and replies in this forum.  A black belt in 5 arts besides the piano to boot?  Very impressive.  Now there's two disciplines that could totally occupy a man's life, karate and piano.  Very similar arts in that one never truly feels they've perfected their form , or that they can ever.   But the strict attention to detail that one must obtain to make advancements must be very relative.  I would surmise that you probably would not be half the piano player that you are  today without your extracurricular martial arts practice.  I do not practice MA but I do hear and believe that the nucleus of it's teachings is Focus.   It is very appearant in all of your advice, the attention one must give to the details of what one is doing. 

[caro]

I think im starting to think that perhaps piano playing abilities have to do with the amount of coordination that you are born with.  This friend i have is note perfect, and can play some opus 25 chopin etudes with much ease. I am currently struggling with the winter etude that i have had for 3 months, and i cant seem to get it to 3 minutes (my best is just under 4). So, do you think it could be genetics that affect the pianist's abilities? we have been playing piano for about the same amount of time (10 years). we are the same age give or take. I've been noticing his dexterity from non piano related activities (ping pong/videogames).

What do you guys think of this?

don´t worry 4 this. We all have different timings in life. The same for playing. Some pianiats developed much faster than others and also some pianists reach tjeir limits faster. It´s a long way. Time will give u the answer. There is also the talent of keep walking after having difficulties.....
Cheers,Caro

[allthumbs]

Sorry, this post was sent here by mistake.

Cheers

[pytis]

i might be genes and heredity my great great granpa played piano my great grandpa played piano my grandpa played piano skiped my dad and now its me and my sister ( shes 19 ) and played piano for 9 1/2 years i can play one of her songs that took her 4 1/2 years to find and leadn in 2 days of practice. so it might be somehow related to genes.

[thierry13]

Both my grandma and my mom wanted to become concert pianist, but never got lessons/ piano to practice on. I was the first of the line to get piano lessons, i began at 14 years old, and it was like boom a revelation and im going to be concert pianist... I don't know if it's related to this, since my mother did only like about 2 years of piano when she was 15 years old and totally stoped... But I can't recall of any specific activities who would have developed it. And gene DO affect alot, and the proof are the geniuses like Mozart... writing a symphony at 6, I don't think he could have had big big music non-related activity to super-boost is music mind. So talent DOES exist.

[lagin]

Personally, I think God gives us all different talents and gifts.  Take sports for example.  Some are naturals, others have to work really hard.  Both make it, eventually

[Derek]

I dunno, I don't think speed matters much. In fact, I think a lot of pieces sound much better sub-tempo. Don't worry about speed---it doesn't matter.  Unless there's some sort of exam you have to take that requires speed....ugh.

take fantasy impromptu for example. many artists play it much like a computer does---insanely fast, perfectly regular without any breathing room.  BLECH.  It sounds much better played slower than that and with really stretched out rubato (even within the four note figures...).