Piano tuning question

[chopincat]

My piano just got tuned. I have perfect pitch, and my first reaction when I played it afterwards was that it sounded kind of sharp. At first I thought that it was just because I was used to the flatter version, and my perfect pitch might be more malleable than I thought. But now that I am thinking about it, I am constantly around other pianos (at my teacher's house, at school), and they would've sounded sharp to me this whole if that had happened. Is there a chance that the piano tuner tuned my piano slightly sharp because he anticipated that it would fall flat again shortly afterwards given the weather? Is that a thing that piano tuners do? Or am I just going insane?!

[quantum]

Have you tried checking the pitch with a chromatic tuner? 

[indianajo]

When a piano is way out, more than 1/2 tone flat, I'll pull it a little sharp knowing it hasn't been tuned in years and will take a couple of tunings to stabilize. The bass notes don't drift as much flat as the trebles, so I doubt a universal "sharp" effect is an attempt to stabilize the tuning in one go.  
I've got a seventies cheap Wurlitzer marianating to pitch as we speak, some notes were three whole tones flat on that jewel.  It sounds weird, now, with tunings kind of approximate,  but not as horrid as before where everything above middle C was a half tone or more flat, and the upper octaves more than that.  I've played a gorgeous seventies Wurlitzer at another church, one difference you can spot is the cheap pianos there is no extra wire above the hammers on the upper octave like the real ones.  This cheap Wurlitzer goes "Pank" on the top octave, not "Ping" like on my gorgeous 1941 Steinway 40 or 1982 Sohmer 39.  
But I doubt if your personal piano has not been tuned in 20 years or more.  How long had it been since the previous tuning? My 1941 Steinway hadn't been tuned between 1966 and 2011, that took seven tunings to get right, and it was  stable as a rock for three years after that tuning. It is not real bad now, at 4 1/2 years out.  
The top octave is supposed to be a little sharp, that it called stretch.  the overtones of the top octave are out of tune, more so on cheap pianos than expensive ones, so the various keys sound better if the fundamental pitch is a little sharp up there. Hearing the fundamental tone on the top octave is a trick, I find it easier if tuning the piano to my Hammond organ, the top octave.  (I think the h100 has stretch, unlike the ordinary C3/B3's).    
I had a pro tuner tuning my 4 year old piano flat, to save time I suppose since he objected to my owning a cat. All the records were recorded a quarter tone off C# or F# major.  Playing by ear is so much easier now I tune the piano myself. The songs on record are all in D or A or F or something reasonable.   What an idiot that guy was, and he worked for the local Steinway dealer.  He installed a humidifier to "solve" the problem of the one wire that would go out of tune (flat) in a couple of weeks, which did nothing but consume electricity and take up space.  Considering I live 1 mile from the Ohio river and don't air condition excessively, that "solution" was doomed before it started. Since I met him at church, he may have been giving me a "bargain rate" on the flat tuning, but considering the ammount of money I was making in those days I would have rather had the full rate job, to correct pitch.  I didn't even own a guitar tuning fork in those days, to spot the problem. 
I've just bought some double sticky tape per the Baldwin service bulletin for the wire that goes flat in a week, stay tuned to this channel.  Steve's piano service  wouldn't sell double sticky tape to me, they offered glue, which struck me as being way too invasive for a piano that has been tuned about half a dozen times in 20 years.  I did buy a two sizes oversize pin from Steve's, but will try the double sticky tape from mcmaster.com before I ty something as drastic as an oversize pin.  

[rich_galassini]

To the OP,

Have you discussed this with your piano technician? That would seem a good first step to me.

[chopinlover01]

Talk to the tech would be my recommendation.
Some tech's I've talked to will set it at a little sharper than 440 (hilarious error that I got to edit while laughing my arse off), knowing that tuning an out of tune piano actually needs several tunings to get right (strings warp as the other strings are tuned).
All in all, I'm not a piano technician by any stretch of the imagination, but it may just have to "settle", if you will. Talk to your technician about it and see what he says.

[pristinepiano]

Many techs like myself will float the pitch by a little if the tunings are more than once a year.  I generally find pianos around here about 7-15 cents sharp or flat in summer and winter respectively.  Of course if the piano is used for music exams, recording, high end voice training, or playing along with fixed pitch instruments, A440 should be the target.  Some of my clients will request A440 regardless, some pianos like Bosendorfers are designed for A443 and apparantly sound a bit better for it.

The reason this is done is two fold.  It provides extra stability on the tuning when the piano is only fine tuned a few cents, this way and that.  It also reduces wear and tear on the pianos pin block and in the long term will help keep the tuning pins a bit tighter. 

ETD's are very helpful for finding the average pitch to tune to.  I use mine to sample the piano anyways so it is quite easy to look at the 6 or 7 samples and figure out the exact pitch to pull to for the least amount of adjusting.

[keys60]

If you play a stringed viol type instrument, perfect pitch is a blessing since they are tuned in perfect fifths. For a pianist, its a curse. Stretched octaves, intervals intentionally tuned with beats in them and inharmonicity can drive a person with perfect pitch nuts.

[michael_c]

If you play a stringed viol type instrument, perfect pitch is a blessing since they are tuned in perfect fifths. For a pianist, its a curse. Stretched octaves, intervals intentionally tuned with beats in them and inharmonicity can drive a person with perfect pitch nuts.

We need to distinguish between two different capacities here:

1. "Perfect pitch" as it is usually understood: a long term pitch memory which enables a person to name any note they hear, or sing any particular note without having to refer to an instrument.

2. A high sensitivity to the pureness of intervals. I don't know a common name for this: you might call it "extreme relative pitch".

Both these capacities can be possessed to differing degrees of accuracy and it's perfectly possible to have one without the other.

If you have an extreme sensitivity to the tuning of intervals, but are willing to accept, and even to revel in the differences of colour that come from different tunings, there is no reason why the inharmonicity and tempered tuning of a piano should drive you nuts.

[pristinepiano]

Perfect pitch has nothing to do with piano tuning FWIW.  We use a referance tone/setting to set 1 note on the piano, thats it.  The rest is tuned out from that note, relative to various intervals used as checks.

Perfect pitch is actually not so perfect.  Most people tested for this capacity cannot distinguish the exact note once the frequency deviates by more than 25 cents +/- from it.  Also, in respect to the piano....as we move up or down from the referance note, the actual frequency of notes are stretched quite far away from theoretical because of iH, and also for the sake of taste.  Most pianos for example, end up with its highest note C88 easily 35-65 cents sharp of theoretical and the lowest bass notes 20-40 cents flat of their theoretically proper frequency....all for the sake of the piano sounding in tune to itself. 

[8_octaves]

We need to distinguish between two different capacities here:

1. "Perfect pitch" as it is usually understood: a long term pitch memory which enables a person to name any note they hear, or sing any particular note without having to refer to an instrument.

2. A high sensitivity to the pureness of intervals. I don't know a common name for this: you might call it "extreme relative pitch".

Both these capacities can be possessed to differing degrees of accuracy and it's perfectly possible to have one without the other.

If you have an extreme sensitivity to the tuning of intervals, but are willing to accept, and even to revel in the differences of colour that come from different tunings, there is no reason why the inharmonicity and tempered tuning of a piano should drive you nuts.

There's another definition, which divides perfect pitch in three ranked subdivisions.

1) "Active perfect pitch": The ability not only to recognize tones but to produce them at any time.

2) "Passive perfect pitch": The ability only to recognize.

3) The ability to recognize tones only on the particular instrument we play.

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[chopincat]

There's another definition, which divides perfect pitch in three ranked subdivisions.

1) "Active perfect pitch": The ability not only to recognize tones but to produce them at any time.

2) "Passive perfect pitch": The ability only to recognize.

3) The ability to recognize tones only on the particular instrument we play.

Cordially, 8_octaves!

I have active perfect pitch then.

Interestingly, I don't think I have relative pitch. I can recognize intervals by identifying what the two notes are. But I can't immediately recognize an interval without figuring out the notes first.

[8_octaves]

I have active perfect pitch then.

Interestingly, I don't think I have relative pitch. I can recognize intervals by identifying what the two notes are. But I can't immediately recognize an interval without figuring out the notes first.

Hi chopincat,
thank you for this description, that's really interesting, because of some reasons, which I'll try to "encircle" now. But I'll have to verify it by looking into a book sometimes:

First, an "interval" is defined via the proportion of frequencies, e.g. tone with frequency 880Hz and tone with frequency 440Hz make 1 octave.
The proportion of their frequencies is 2:1.

But in different temperaments the tones, for example of a "just" third: 1:1,25, of a pythagoreian major third 1:1,265625, and of a welltemperated third 1:1,259921 , show slightly different frequency-proportions!

So it could be, that you have encountered many different temperaments of instruments until now, and that the different temperaments might have influenced the ability to at once say which interval it is?

But I don't think so, because people who are playing in competitions for Carnegie Hall, as you described in the other thread, are certainly accustomed to listening to many instruments, so it shouldn't be too harmful.

What I think is the following: Per definitionem the "at once naming" of intervals isn't a limiting factor for "active perfect pitch".

Perhaps we shouldn't forget the fact, that intervals can be played successive ( first one, then the second tone ), OR they can be played simultaneously. In the first case there should be enough time for someone with active perfect pitch to identify the 2 notes given, and then name the interval. And in the latter case there are chances, too, I think, if there are problems. First, one could train it on a given instrument. Secondly, the man who created the 3 above mentioned definitions, was a very very good piano teacher with active perfect pitch, too, who had in his classes professional pianists and teachers, and of these students even the best ones, who also had active perfect pitch, sometimes had problems. He played, for example, modern chords to them, with many tones, or even clusters, and they had to define the single tones and / or to name the chords (if possible).-
One student is reported to have said: "My brain / mind cannot do it!" But he was told to practice and train it, and not to be lazy.  

Concluding one shouldn't forget: For a person with active perfect pitch in the sense of the above given definition, one plays a tone, and the other person will name the tone. After two weeks, e.g., when one asks the person: "now, please, SING a g#1 for me!" the person ought to be able to do that, at least as exactly as his experience and "listening-continuum" (temperament, other influence, etc.) provides the basis for her / his active perfect pitch.

I think if a person is living, since birth, for 20 years or more in a continuum in which all the tones are a half tone down in comparison to our "normal" world, she / he can have active perfect pitch, too. But if transported in "our" continuum, then, he / she will have to adjust very much. And, maybe, to re-learn... . People with active perfect pitch have a built-in tuning fork in their heads!

But NOBODY can sing, for example, an "a" (with approx. 440 Hz), without having heard any (musical) tones (and their names) before. It's very unlikely - and only by chance - that somebody, even with active perfect pitch, can sing an "a1", if asked, while never having heard a tone of any (musical) kind before. For example a newborn baby, assumed, fictionally, it could understand our request.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!

[michael_c]

I have active perfect pitch then.

Interestingly, I don't think I have relative pitch. I can recognize intervals by identifying what the two notes are. But I can't immediately recognize an interval without figuring out the notes first.

Then you should get to work on relative pitch!

You haven't said if your piano still sounds "kind of sharp" to you. Have you got used to it?

[pristinepiano]

8Octaves....there is a tribe of natives in SA who have had very little contact with rest of humanity.  They have no word for "yellow" nor any descriptive alternative.  Yellow does not exist for them from the perspective of conversation, yet there are many things that are yellow (by our definition) around them.  For many people, perfect pitch is the same way.  In Japan now, there are music schools which will "teach" perfect pitch to children with +90% success rate, as long as the child is enrolled before 5 years of age.  They postulate that we are actually all born with perfect pitch and we learn to "unlearn it" once we begin traditional schooling.  Those people who retain it have some special functioning in their brain where they can protect against the unlearning process. 

I have a so/so type of perfect pitch.  I can recognize any note on a piano for eg, if the referance A440 note has been tuned to within +/- 5 cents or so.  Has caused me much grief when playing together with other musicians and I truly wished I didn't have it for this sake.  Many musicians complain of the same thing....soloists of course don't mind.

[silverwoodpianos]

When at any piano play the A above middle C.

Is that A at 440 cps or 439.3685 or 441.247? Perhaps 438.50 or 443.25?

If one cannot tell what the exact frequency is then there is no perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is exact frequency identification. Anything else is note identification or memory.

Just because one can tell what note is being played does not indicate perfect pitch. The note in question can be at any frequency....

This is an endless debate; it has gone on for probably centuries with little in the way of resolution for all.

[pristinepiano]

Good points Dan.  Your description fits the older definition of the term.  Unfortunately, the definition for "perfect pitch" is not exactly a static one anymore, like many other words it evolves.  The definition changes over the years as scientists/audiologists understand the workings of the ear/brain more and more.  The main change in our understanding of it came whe scientists determined that two different functions occur in 2 different areas of the brain relating to the "chroma" of sound. Many dictionaries no longer list the term "perfect pitch" on its own now BTW (along with wikipedia), and it is usually only mentioned only along side of the more universal term, (AP) Absolute Pitch. Possible reasons for this are that there never was a definative deviation amount listed (in frequency) for what is perfect and what is not; another reason is that numerous terms have been substituted for "perfect pitch" in the fields that study it.  Musical ear, absolute tone consciousness, positive pitch are examples.  It also does not have to relate to exclusively to music either, the TET (some cultures do not have TET), or even human perception. Many cultures have different structures in their temperament octave, different number of notes in it, yet they have people who can correctly identify the proper notes.   Bats, wolves, rodents, birds, and other creatures have the ability to identify or reproduce exact frequencies to help them find meals, mates, etc... 

[chopincat]

When at any piano play the A above middle C.

Is that A at 440 cps or 439.3685 or 441.247? Perhaps 438.50 or 443.25?

If one cannot tell what the exact frequency is then there is no perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is exact frequency identification. Anything else is note identification or memory.

Just because one can tell what note is being played does not indicate perfect pitch. The note in question can be at any frequency....

I really don't think that's correct. The current accepted definition doesn't involve exact frequency identification. (If you don't believe me, have a look at these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch
https://www.audiology.org/news/absolute-pitch-perfect-pitch-relative-pitch-and-other-musical-notes
https://classicalmusic.about.com/od/classicalmusic101/p/perfectpitch.htm
https://deutsch.ucsd.edu/psychology/pages.php?i=215 )

I also have doubts as to whether that would be possible without some kind of training.

Let me give you an example. One way I've described my perfect pitch (or really, absolute pitch) to people who are unfamiliar with the term is with colors. When presented with yellow, or red, or pink, or orange, most humans will be able to identify the color instantaneously. When someone plays an A, or a C, or a B flat, or a G sharp, I can identify what the note is instantaneously. It's like a color - to me it's very distinct and recognizable. There's no confusion.

But, when presented with a color, could a person tell you exactly how much red, blue, and green light in it there was? Not just color relationships, but exact numbers. With some kind of training, a person might be able to. But no one is inherently accustomed to seeing colors as amounts of light. A person can't really have any idea of how much red, green and blue there is in true yellow for example without having some reference as to how the RGB scale works, just as no one would inherently know that an A4 is 440 hz without having some reference as to what hertz is and the units it's measured in.

As for an update on my piano: I no longer hear it as sharp, which could either be because it was only slightly sharp before and then evened out, or because I grew re-accustomed to what an in-tune piano sounds like. Which explanation remains a mystery. Perhaps it's a combination of the two.

[8_octaves]

[...]I have a so/so type of perfect pitch.  I can recognize any note on a piano for eg, if the referance A440 note has been tuned to within +/- 5 cents or so.  Has caused me much grief when playing together with other musicians and I truly wished I didn't have it for this sake.  Many musicians complain of the same thing....soloists of course don't mind.

Hi pristine,

that's what I tried to explain using the word "continuum", the (musical, but cultural-musical would be included, too, of course ) environment people normally live or stay in, or are accustomed to.

Perfect pitch, in my opinion, exists. At least as far as the "built-in tuning fork" of people who possess it, can provide.

@Dan: ..and I think it's not too important, whether there is a slight difference in the after-comma-numbers, for example if you ask those people to PRODUCE (sing) a specific tone (which is one of the necessary ability) . This tone can be "perfect" in two ways: First, it can orientate on the "built-in tuning fork": A basis-tone only the owner of perfect pitch hears. The more exact / the nearer this tuning-fork's tone is to a GIVEN frequency (e.g. 440 Hz), the better the PRODUCED tone will correspond to a 440 Hz "a".

Pls don't forget: to recognize AND to produce specific tones at any time, is active perfect pitch.

Now to the recognizing: Let's assume: The built-in tuning fork, e.g., of someone with active perfect pitch, gives him a basis-tone of "a" = "440,20 Hz."

When you play on any instrument (including the "any pianos" you mentioned) an "a" of a roughly, but in no way exact 440 Hz, the person 100% will recognize it as an "a", since of course the deviation won't stay unnoticed by the person, but it's still exact enough to identify the "a", but the person might say: "it's not MY a, but, it is one, at last." ( "It's not the "a" of her / his CONTNUUM, but it's, at last, an "a").

And don't let us forget the third definition in rank: => "only recognize, and only on the instrument we play." That's a kind of perfect pitch, too, but comparing piano and, e.g. violin, (and the grade of being accustomed, maybe, even to ONE SPECIFIC SPECIMEN of them), there are differences, since when a person plays on a violin-tone for someone with active perfect pitch, she / he is in direct contact to the string with his fingers and horses'-hair-bow, and the body of persons move, and will influence the played tone. An exact 440 Hz- "a", even if the strings are tuned "perfectly", will hardly be achieved on the violin, since the string is touched with a finger, and that's already a factor which makes it impossible to "hold" an exact ( in your sense, @Dan, because you mentioned so many after-comma-numbers) frequency over a long time, e.g. 2 hours.

It's because of the "ever-so-small", involuntary, movements of fingers, which are in direct contact to the string on a violin.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!    

[michael_c]

As for an update on my piano: I no longer hear it as sharp, which could either be because it was only slightly sharp before and then evened out, or because I grew re-accustomed to what an in-tune piano sounds like. Which explanation remains a mystery. Perhaps it's a combination of the two.

I doubt that the pitch of the piano has moved much in that short time. The more likely explanation is that you have become accustomed to it.

There can be differences in the acuity of perfect pitch depending on the particular sound colour of the instrument. It could be that you are specially sensitive to the sound of your own piano: you hear it very often, it's ingrained into your consciousness. Thus you could be more sensitive to a slight change in pitch of your own piano than you would be to similar differences in pitch between other pianos.

Perfect pitch is certainly malleable: it is possible, by very slowly changing the pitch of a recording,  to cause a shift in its perception, something which has surprised many "perfect pitchers". Participants in a study listened to a piece of music, which, unbeknown to them, was being very slowly flattened, ending up 1/3 of a semitone lower.

All participants had perfect pitch.
None of the participants noticed the shift in pitch.
When the participants then heard notes played at the original pitch, they sounded sharp to their ears.

Perfect pitch may not be absolute after all

[pristinepiano]

I doubt that the pitch of the piano has moved much in that short time. The more likely explanation is that you have become accustomed to it.

There can be differences in the acuity of perfect pitch depending on the particular sound colour of the instrument. It could be that you are specially sensitive to the sound of your own piano: you hear it very often, it's ingrained into your consciousness. Thus you could be more sensitive to a slight change in pitch of your own piano than you would be to similar differences in pitch between other pianos.

Perfect pitch is certainly malleable: it is possible, by very slowly changing the pitch of a recording,  to cause a shift in its perception, something which has surprised many "perfect pitchers". Participants in a study listened to a piece of music, which, unbeknown to them, was being very slowly flattened, ending up 1/3 of a semitone lower.

All participants had perfect pitch.
None of the participants noticed the shift in pitch.
When the participants then heard notes played at the original pitch, they sounded sharp to their ears.

Perfect pitch may not be absolute after all

I absolutely agree with this.  Diana Deutsch had done incredible research into this and many other auditory illusions related to Shepard Tones, spotting around chromatic circles, tritone paradox etc..    As reasonably good as my absolute pitch is, I highly doubt I would catch a shift of that amount if it was gradually changed over time...we certainly don't see it coming because I know of no music which does this in a piece intentionally.

[michael_c]

I absolutely agree with this.  Diana Deutsch had done incredible research into this and many other auditory illusions related to Shepard Tones, spotting around chromatic circles, tritone paradox etc..    As reasonably good as my absolute pitch is, I highly doubt I would catch a shift of that amount if it was gradually changed over time...we certainly don't see it coming because I know of no music which does this in a piece intentionally.

No, nor do I. I know plenty of choir music where this happens unintentionally, though!

[indianajo]

I doubt that the pitch of the piano has moved much in that short time. The more likely explanation is that you have become accustomed to it.

I tuned a bargain US made Wurlitzer piano that was 1/2 tone flat on the upper half, and a week later it was about 1/4 tone flat.  Tuning was to a tuning fork.  My conclusion, corroborated by my experience with my 1982 Sohmer, pianos that aren't tuned regularly and achieve a set between the pins and the wood, sag pitch pretty fast.
I wonder how perfect pitch people handle 1920's upright  pianos which were tuned to 428 or something.    I have great relative pitch, as successful double reed players have to  since the instrument doesn't do it.  Buy I played a lot of cheapo uprights with missing ivory in Sunday School in my preteen years. I wonder if I destroyed any possiblity of having "perfect pitch".  My mother's piano was also tuned once in my span of 6 years of piano lessons.  My teacher's piano was tuned regularly.  The weekly piano lesson would have also destroyed any possible fantasy of "perfect pitch".  
As far as interval identification training , it was totally skipped by my piano and bassoon teachers.  I'm learning it now, as part of the regime of "playing by ear", which involves hearing chord intervals on record and playing them easily on the piano or organ. That is a totally different skill IMHO.  I'm not getting better at identifying which key the recorded media was played in, so still no perfect pitch develops. I can hear sweet keys like C# or F# in equal temperment, versus normal keys like D or C.    
Off to give the church Wurlitzer it's second tuning, out of maybe seven required to make it settle down.  My 1941 Steinway 40 console needed 7 tunings in 2010 after neglect from 1966. It has been marvously stable since, although the top octave needs it again and has for about a year.  

[pristinepiano]

Pianos which have dropped significantly in pitch and then suddenly have a large pitch raise will almost always respond with a drop in pitch after a few weeks.  My ETD software has a default pitch offset (sharp) of about 3- 5 cents to adjust for this adjustment.  I'm not sure if the tuning pins /pin block play as much a role in this as the wire and the sound board does.  The reason is that the settling is usually not very even across the keyboard and I typically see more settling in the central region then the treble bass extents and on multi piece bridges, the end notes on these tend to drop more also.  I always felt that the soundboard becomes a bit unstable if its left for years without a tuning and also, a large pitch raise will pull a wire to the point where new parts of it have to deal with the vector changing bearing points.  There will be settling here on the wires, much the same as with a new restringing job. 

The multi layered pinblocks are designed so that each layer places the end grain of the wood in a different axial direction to the pin, typically 60 degrees offset from the previous one (delignit for eg.).  The end grain is far more resistant to compression forces and this rotation of alignment keeps the holding force on the pin more even for tuning and stability sake.  I notice also that very old pianos which had used old growth higher density wood in the soundboards tend not to drop as much in pitch (or as quickly) on pitch raises (or even high humidity fluctuations)....this tends to make me think the instability has much to do with the soundboards characteristic for strength, flexibility, and porousity FWIW.