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Money Making Music Teachers (Read 8136 times)

Offline dogperson

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #50 on: August 18, 2015, 03:46:56 AM »
Re:  "Pytheamatuer:"

["If this is what you think, then you should know that there are prizewinners at major international competitions who still struggle as a concert pianist.  This should give you s sense of perspective and make you think twice before criticizing your teacher."]

I proffer the following:

1)  By inference, in so many words in my past posts, including my video
, that most piano teachers are liars and frauds.  And, this practice has been going on for hundreds of years, and that includes teachers by the name of Chopin, and Czrerny.

They took an enormous sum of peoples money, knowing full-well that the particular matriculant was an aristocrat non-serious student.  With Czerny, if you could not afford the fee, then he would not teach you.

With Chopin, it was 20 Francs a lesson (a single solid gold coin), which added up to a weekly sum of 700 Francs.  This was over ten times the average weekly laborers wage of 50 Francs.

2)  Regarding the original thesis of the OP, or those who beg to differ, please show me a non-Taubamn/Golandsky and Thomas Mark student, who has significant technical skills without the usual "My Teacher" drama?

And, for the record, Thomas Mark's pedagogical difference is that, unlike Taubman/Golandsky, one size doe s not fit all.

Louis
What is the basis for ' student's hating their teachers'?  and "one size fits all"? 

I am a returning student, and neither statement fits the relationship with my teacher and my lessons.  They are 'far from 'one size fits all'  as she will have me approach a problem many different ways until we find one that works...FOR ME   My head sometimes explodes with so much to think about during the week.  Far from a 'cookie cutter formula'

other students have expressed similar sentiments.

Maybe you should pose those generalizations as a poll on this forum.  Your experience was negative, but don't dismiss everyone else. Too bad you have no experience as a happy student.

Offline outin

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #51 on: August 18, 2015, 03:56:50 AM »
Louis
What is the basis for ' student's hating their teachers'?  and "one size fits all"? 

I am a returning student, and neither statement fits the relationship with my teacher and my lessons.  They are 'far from 'one size fits all'  as she will have me approach a problem many different ways until we find one that works...FOR ME   My head sometimes explodes with so much to think about during the week.  Far from a 'cookie cutter formula'

other students have expressed similar sentiments.

Maybe you should pose those generalizations as a poll on this forum.  Your experience was negative, but don't dismiss everyone else. Too bad you have no experience as a happy student.

I think you are all just wasting your time with this one, whose bitterness got the better of him... At the moment he is handling it with religious-like fanaticism, which will unable him to be objective towards the world around him.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #52 on: August 18, 2015, 01:32:19 PM »
handling it with religious-like fanaticism,

that is a perfect analogy.   like a televangelist

interesting that he makes the accusation---Liars and frauds...

often times people will accuse others of the very thing they are trying to hide about themselves... it's called projection..  they believe people are less likely to suspect them if they accuse someone else

hmmmm  of course I have no practical experience as a psychologist---so I am only postulating  ;D

Offline keypeg

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #53 on: August 18, 2015, 02:46:54 PM »
On the Off Topic subject that comes up - and steering away from anything personal - just rationally.

In any largish city I imagine that there are at least 100 piano teachers.  Any individual in that city will have experience in how those teachers teach with whom he himself has studied - maybe 5 max?  He will not have any idea of how the other 95 teach.  Now expand this to the world.  Nobody can know what all the piano teachers in the world do.  Therefore there can be no statement on what all such teachers do.  There may be trends - probably even numerous trends - and patterns that teachers fall into.  Some of these trends may go in opposing directions.  So again, there can be no statement that all teachers do things in a particular manner.

The ones we tend to know about who are not our own teachers (or ourselves if we teach) will be the ones who are famous, who are published etc.  There will be teachers who don't follow the status quo such as it exists.  If they're not playing the game, they are also less likely to be noticed, so they're invisible.  So they are unknown.

Supposing that most music teaching is mediocre or worse, including harmful.  If you have experienced some of these, and then come upon an excellent teacher, he is going to stand out head over heels over the rest.  You may justifiably want to shout from the rooftops what this teacher is doing, and tear your hair out as you see other students continue to being messed up by their lessons (assuming that they are).  But that does not mean that this teacher will be the only excellent teacher out there.  You (none no of us) can know all the teachers who exist in the entire world and what they do.

The reality is that teachers work in isolation.  The industry also promotes certain things.  If you can push kids through the grades super fast, then you'll attract one side of the industry, and you "make it" and get known for that.  If you get kids to win competitions or get really high grades in exams, then you get a reputation in that niche.  If you have the chops, and can grab students who have been well taught and have natural ability, rejecting the others, and "polish" the career pianists, then this is still another niche for getting known.  But what about the teacher who wants to give all students solid skills, who is willing to work as slowly and methodically as is needed, with an aim of giving a particular enjoyment in music which comes from the control you have from acquired solid skills?  That teacher fits in none of the niches, and he or she will likely stay invisible and unknown.  S/he is not part of the statistics.  And worse, parents and students who are new to music may not even realize the treasure they have, since the uninformed tend to be bedazzled by the "fast", the "winning awards/high grades" and other trinkets.  When you are well taught from the beginning, everything seems relatively easy, and you don't know that it is in large part from good teaching.


Offline louispodesta

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #54 on: August 18, 2015, 07:34:42 PM »
liars and frauds?

hmmmm....   and you are going to support this with more of your scientific ____?


frustrated pianists...  they are so angry.


teach a few lessons Louis ---  might do you good to see the other side of things.

your experience is completely one-sided and you have absolutely no idea what it is like to be a piano teacher...

how can you say it's wrong if you have never done it?   how can you profess to know best how to do something you have never done?


all your research is great but without practical experience...  you are only postulating.


 


 


I have stated this before.  My former coach, who was voted the best young student teacher in Texas, also specializes  in teaching pedagogy.

This guy who has a degree from Eastman under her royal highness, kept having me play the same piece lesson after lesson hoping I would quit.  When I didn't, he dumped me.

The great news from that is I ended up with Thomas Mark, who is the best piano teacher I have ever experienced.   And, that is why I use the term "liars and frauds."

So, when you have a man who has a doctorate in philosophy from Columbia very simply lay out the specific mechanics of just how to play the piano, that is when you realize that most of everything you were taught before was glorified BS.

Oh, and I live in San Antonio with a populous of 1.25 million.  When I asked my former coach how many teachers in this city actually know what they are doing, his response was himself and one other teacher.

My late teacher Robert Weaver wouldn't have any thing to do with the local teacher's association, nor the Piano Guild of America.  So, it may be an eleventh commandment related publicly stated opinion, but I can guarantee you mine is not unique to me.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #55 on: August 18, 2015, 08:39:49 PM »
I have stated this before.  My former coach, who was voted the best young student teacher in Texas, also specializes  in teaching pedagogy.

This guy who has a degree from Eastman under her royal highness, kept having me play the same piece lesson after lesson hoping I would quit.  When I didn't, he dumped me.

The great news from that is I ended up with Thomas Mark, who is the best piano teacher I have ever experienced.   And, that is why I use the term "liars and frauds."

So, when you have a man who has a doctorate in philosophy from Columbia very simply lay out the specific mechanics of just how to play the piano, that is when you realize that most of everything you were taught before was glorified BS.

Oh, and I live in San Antonio with a populous of 1.25 million.  When I asked my former coach how many teachers in this city actually know what they are doing, his response was himself and one other teacher.

My late teacher Robert Weaver wouldn't have any thing to do with the local teacher's association, nor the Piano Guild of America.  So, it may be an eleventh commandment related publicly stated opinion, but I can guarantee you mine is not unique to me.


wow... are you serious?   this is your support for your statement?   your former coach said it so it must be true.

Repeating what your teachers said -- that makes you an expert... cause this guy was voted best young teacher---that makes YOU an expert--do tell how?

I stand by my original statement as you have not in any way proven yours


You have no experience Louis...  you are theorizing at best---and you are not supporting this with anything but a very warped and one-sided view....

I would bet money that is all about Dr, Roberts dropping you...and your anger towards him.

"your teacher taught you wrong?"   why?  because sometimes they rolled chords in the 19th century when it wasn't marked?   That makes the entire system wrong?

rolling the chords--it's no big deal Louis---it doesn't mean your teacher taught you wrong---there is no earth shattering musical revelation there...  that's why the BBC hasn't purchased your story...

I have no doubt you were taught wrong--but that doesn't mean everyone has been.

why don't you ever answer my questions?   I will ask this one more time..

How can you profess to know how best to teach piano when you have never taught a single lesson in all your life??

without practical experience as a teacher--- you are just guessing... postulating

and venting your bitterness about your poor experiences as a student--and I am sorry you had such a bad experience --but to put in bluntly--you don't know the first thing about teaching piano... and that is a fact.  ;D

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #56 on: August 18, 2015, 08:48:01 PM »
Just today I finished (by private message) a week long process of setting up and adult beginner with one of the top Taubman teachers in the Boston area.  The individual is an extremely bright college chemistry major who has never had a lesson.

However, he has progressed through self-study to where he can start with this Taubman teacher.  Further, next summer I have talked him into some coaching sessions with Thomas Mark, when the student is vacationing in Portland, OR.

And (dcstudio), over the last two years, I have privately advised many others on similar issues by getting them from point A to point B, which their precious teachers have not been able to do.

The only problem this student will have is getting used to not having to buy or study from method book number this or that, and also not having to start each practice session by playing stupid exercises, scales, and arpeggios everyday to warm up.

I am a social activist philosopher, Ma'am, and I have been doing things just like this since 1966, when I was 16 years old.  That is my experience!

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #57 on: August 18, 2015, 10:41:29 PM »
Just today I finished (by private message) a week long process of setting up and adult beginner with one of the top Taubman teachers in the Boston area.  The individual is an extremely bright college chemistry major who has never had a lesson.

However, he has progressed through self-study to where he can start with this Taubman teacher.  Further, next summer I have talked him into some coaching sessions with Thomas Mark, when the student is vacationing in Portland, OR.

And (dcstudio), over the last two years, I have privately advised many others on similar issues by getting them from point A to point B, which their precious teachers have not been able to do.

The only problem this student will have is getting used to not having to buy or study from method book number this or that, and also not having to start each practice session by playing stupid exercises, scales, and arpeggios everyday to warm up.

I am a social activist philosopher, Ma'am, and I have been doing things just like this since 1966, when I was 16 years old.  That is my experience!

Great! so we both agree you have no experience as a teacher....  thanks for clearing that up

all I see is a man who still doesn't play very well after 50 years...and wants to blame everyone else but himself... that's the real issue here... Dr. R is just your scapegoat.  You tried to be a performance major...after 10 years without lessons... and it's his fault you were  dropped?? come on what did you expect.. 

so you advised these people and you are responsible for their success because you knew more than their teachers...  wow..and they couldn't have done it without you?
sounds pretty egotistical...  sounds almost like a Messiah complex.. 


so now you are going to save everyone from bad teaching???  even though you have never taught a lesson.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #58 on: August 19, 2015, 12:45:26 AM »
Great! so we both agree you have no experience as a teacher....  thanks for clearing that up

all I see is a man who still doesn't play very well after 50 years...and wants to blame everyone else but himself... that's the real issue here... Dr. R is just your scapegoat.  You tried to be a performance major...after 10 years without lessons... and it's his fault you were  dropped?? come on what did you expect.. 

so you advised these people and you are responsible for their success because you knew more than their teachers...  wow..and they couldn't have done it without you?
sounds pretty egotistical...  sounds almost like a Messiah complex.. 


so now you are going to save everyone from bad teaching???  even though you have never taught a lesson.
Your words:

"The reality is that teachers work in isolation.  The industry also promotes certain things.  If you can push kids through the grades super fast, then you'll attract one side of the industry, and you "make it" and get known for that.  If you get kids to win competitions or get really high grades in exams, then you get a reputation in that niche.  If you have the chops, and can grab students who have been well taught and have natural ability, rejecting the others, and "polish" the career pianists, .. .

As I have said before, name me one academic or "Fine Art" discipline wherein they could exist within your said parameters.

So, we have 2 million nine year olds taking piano lessons, who will all quit in a few years, so that makes it okay.  That is exactly what you have said.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #59 on: August 19, 2015, 01:37:42 AM »
So, we have 2 million nine year olds taking piano lessons, who will all quit in a few years, so that makes it okay.  That is exactly what you have said.
That is not what I said.  At all.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #60 on: August 19, 2015, 01:39:37 AM »
My next posts will be on the topic if and when the OP has anything new to say, and only if I have anything worthwhile to contribute.  I invite fellow members to not let themselves be pulled into contention - a thing that can happen too easily.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #61 on: August 19, 2015, 01:46:29 AM »
Your words:

"The reality is that teachers work in isolation.  The industry also promotes certain things.  If you can push kids through the grades super fast, then you'll attract one side of the industry, and you "make it" and get known for that.  If you get kids to win competitions or get really high grades in exams, then you get a reputation in that niche.  If you have the chops, and can grab students who have been well taught and have natural ability, rejecting the others, and "polish" the career pianists, .. .

As I have said before, name me one academic or "Fine Art" discipline wherein they could exist within your said parameters.

So, we have 2 million nine year olds taking piano lessons, who will all quit in a few years, so that makes it okay.  That is exactly what you have said.


as always--I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about









you have never taught a piano lesson and you refuse to demonstrate your abilities...

yet you claim to have all these answers...


why should anyone listen to you...?  and I mean that as a serious question...

what credentials do you have?




Offline keypeg

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #62 on: August 19, 2015, 02:58:56 AM »
.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #63 on: August 19, 2015, 11:21:53 PM »
"all I see is a man who still doesn't play very well after 50 years...and wants to blame everyone else but himself'

For the record, with Thomas Mark as my coach, I (at the age of 64) am playing better than I have in my life.  And, that is with my recent horrible flare-up of psoriatic arthritis, which has turned my normal practice routine inside out.

In the next year, I will be fleshing out my concerto repertoire with a practice coach.  And, my solo repertoire (absent you paying my audio tech to record said proof) is somewhat scary because I have never played at this level before.

Further as you stated:  "So, we have 2 million nine year olds taking piano lessons, who will all quit in a few years, so that makes it okay.  That is exactly what you have said."

My analysis of your logic is:  1) If you drive an automobile then it does not matter whether it operates daily on a proper basis.  2) Accordingly, two million nine year olds quitting after a few years equates to parents paying 60 million dollars a year (U.S.), which effectuates the resultant of nothing!

It is supposedly for so-called cultural education, whose goal is rarely accomplished.   I have lived this reality!!
 

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #64 on: August 20, 2015, 04:20:39 AM »
I sincerely
"all I see is a man who still doesn't play very well after 50 years...and wants to blame everyone else but himself'

For the record, with Thomas Mark as my coach, I (at the age of 64) am playing better than I have in my life.  And, that is with my recent horrible flare-up of psoriatic arthritis, which has turned my normal practice routine inside out.

In the next year, I will be fleshing out my concerto repertoire with a practice coach.  And, my solo repertoire (absent you paying my audio tech to record said proof) is somewhat scary because I have never played at this level before.

Further as you stated:  "So, we have 2 million nine year olds taking piano lessons, who will all quit in a few years, so that makes it okay.  That is exactly what you have said."

My analysis of your logic is:  1) If you drive an automobile then it does not matter whether it operates daily on a proper basis.  2) Accordingly, two million nine year olds quitting after a few years equates to parents paying 60 million dollars a year (U.S.), which effectuates the resultant of nothing!

It is supposedly for so-called cultural education, whose goal is rarely accomplished.   I have lived this reality!!
 


 :(

I sincerely apologize Louis that I have been so terribly rude... it was not very nice of me to say that when I have no idea how you play.  It was also rude of me to say those things about your video...I must confess that I really don't understand what it is you are trying to say or how it applies to teaching piano--and that is probably because I didn't take the time to really study it and figure it out.  

I tried to tell you how wrong your idea was... when I really did not have enough information to make that call.   I still don't have enough information or understanding of what your purpose is to argue with you about this.  I also have absolutely no experience as a philosopher or a social activist... so I cannot argue about whether or not that qualifies as experience...  because I don't know.

I am sorry  :'(   It was not very nice of me to make those sweeping generalizations when I did not have all the facts and I had  not studied and done my homework as you requested.    I  hope you understand that it was not about you personally... my musical neurosis was flaring up just a bit... UNT left it's mark on me as well.

Sincerely,

Laurie aka...dcstudio

 8)!! PEACE



Offline keypeg

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #65 on: August 20, 2015, 03:53:52 PM »
There is a post that I don't see anymore which was trying to respond to my long post, suggesting a message that I had not proposed at all.  I responded to it simply by saying that this was not at all my message.  That response seems to be gone.  I almost wonder if I dreamed it.  There seemed to be such a massive misunderstanding that I decided it best not to write at all.

In the long post that I wrote, I was writing it to everyone, because this is a forum.  It was not a response to any particular view, or "taking sides" or anything at all.  I took a number of years to try to get a big picture of the music teaching world, the teacher-student roles, the kinds of goals people go after and why and possible results.  I did so because of my first experiences as a student and as a parent of a student back then.  The picture that came out was not a simple one, and it also wasn't necessarily that nice - more like there were some bright spots here and there.  It's multifaceted, and that is what I tried to express.

Except for the summary which I no longer see, which did not summarize at all what I had tried to express - but rather the opposite - there has been no response.  I have a feeling that there won't be one.  So I guess that is that.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Money Making Music Teachers
«Reply #66 on: August 20, 2015, 05:17:13 PM »
I seem to remember something like that... ???