Should I play beethoven sonata n°21"waldstein" 1st movement? Any tips on it?

[sumpianodude]

So.... I'm a beginner(not an amateur, and not REALLY a beginner, just.... Kinda . I've been playing for a year and a half and is at grade 3(not really. I'm probably more advanced but that's what I will say i am) and i have been recently looking into the first movement of the waldstein sonata by beethoven.
I am thinking if playing it but it may be challenging, as the most difficult song i have successfully attempted(im still working on it) is the third movement of the moonlight sonata.
Should I try playing it? Also any tips on how to practice it and etc. would be appreciated.
Thanks 

[sumpianodude]

Why did this end up in music theory section?!

[chopinlover01]

Wait on it.
Also, for the sake of being pretentious, I'm going to politely ask you to call pieces "pieces" and not songs
The third movement of the moonlight is FAR above Grade 3, or anywhere close to that.
If you're determined to play the moonlight 3rd movement, play that first, master it, post a recording  here so that we can help you
Cheers!

[sumpianodude]

Wait on it.
Also, for the sake of being pretentious, I'm going to politely ask you to call pieces "pieces" and not songs
The third movement of the moonlight is FAR above Grade 3, or anywhere close to that.
If you're determined to play the moonlight 3rd movement, play that first, master it, post a recording  here so that we can help you
Cheers!

I'll try to remember that
I have played the moonlight sonata and I'm having an okay time. I can play the notes at 100bpm as my teacher hasnt had a chance to listen to it to tell me to do dynamics and stuff(so I'm not gonna do it until she tells me  ) And i know it is harder than grade three. But i did say im only grade three via the test thing(certificate of merit thingy in California)
Do i need to master it before I can play waldstein sonata 1st? Which one is harder?
How do i post a video? Plus my mom might not let me.

[8_octaves]

Hi,

both of the mentioned ones, the moonlight 3rd movement and the Waldstein 1st movement, are difficult.

My personal opinion is: The Waldstein 1st movement is more "convenient" to the hands. But we must be very careful here. Both of the mentioned movements demand thorough and good CONCEPTS, for playing them.-

Both of the movements might contain (but that's only my subjective view) elements of "dialogue", which should be brought out well.

But the Waldstein 1st movement has additional features the moonlight 3rd movement cannot provide.
For example, there's a very demanding (short) syncopated section in it, which is, then, near the end of the 1st movement, followed by demanding left-hand-actions, to bring out the relevant voice.

But even before that section, there are wavelike structures, in which single upper- or "treble"-notes have to be emphasized... .

I would - personally and subjectively - say: Make up a fitting concept in your brain, first, IF Waldstein 1st movement doesn't seem to be too difficult for you.

I don't know how far you already have gone in studying the pieces, we're on an online-forum here, so I can only say the following:

I would never discourage ANYONE to look at the Waldstein-Sonata. But beginners or people who might be not too experienced yet in Beethoven-"PATTERNS" and "features", should be aware that this sonata ( and the moonlight, too ) are very demanding, and "dangerous".  

The "Concepts" which one could make up for the Waldstein-Sonata may contain (subjectively):

Waves of the ocean, beginning small, then getting bigger. Then accumulating. Sunrise. Beginning. Dialogue. (Dialogue is imho very important in movement 3 of the Waldstein, too: "Question" and "answer").

Cordially, 8_octaves.

[sumpianodude]

Hi,

both of the mentioned ones, the moonlight 3rd movement and the Waldstein 1st movement, are difficult.

My personal opinion is: The Waldstein 1st movement is more "convenient" to the hands. But we must be very careful here. Both of the mentioned movements demand thorough and good CONCEPTS, for playing them.-

Both of the movements might contain (but that's only my subjective view) elements of "dialogue", which should be brought out well.

But the Waldstein 1st movement has additional features the moonlight 3rd movement cannot provide.
For example, there's a very demanding (short) syncopated section in it, which is, then, near the end of the 1st movement, followed by demanding left-hand-actions, to bring out the relevant voice.

But even before that section, there are wavelike structures, in which single upper- or "treble"-notes have to be emphasized... .

I would - personally and subjectively - say: Make up a fitting concept in your brain, first, IF Waldstein 1st movement doesn't seem to be too difficult for you.

I don't know how far you already have gone in studying the pieces, we're on an online-forum here, so I can only say the following:

I would never discourage ANYONE to look at the Waldstein-Sonata. But beginners or people who might be not too experienced yet in Beethoven-"PATTERNS" and "features", should be aware that this sonata ( and the moonlight, too ) are very demanding, and "dangerous".  

The "Concepts" which one could make up for the Waldstein-Sonata may contain (subjectively):

Waves of the ocean, beginning small, then getting bigger. Then accumulating. Sunrise. Beginning. Dialogue. (Dialogue is imho very important in movement 3 of the Waldstein, too: "Question" and "answer").

Cordially, 8_octaves.

I have just seen another post regarding on wether waldstein 1st is harder than moonlight 3rd. Looks like waldstein is much, much, much harder.
I'm still tempted to try it out in my spare time... But thats why i created this post (to see if it is too difficult for me, and if it is not too hard then i would like tips on practicing it)
Are you suggesting that phrasing is a very important part of both movements? I have seen some pretty obvinous phrasing in moonlight 3rd, whereas i havnt looked at waldstein yet.
Do you have any tips on phrasing when playing music in general? Fast pieces especially. Also any tips on practicing these two movements will be highly appreciated.

[8_octaves]

1. ) I have just seen another post regarding on wether waldstein 1st is harder than moonlight 3rd. Looks like waldstein is much, much, much harder.
2. ) I'm still tempted to try it out in my spare time... But thats why i created this post (to see if it is too difficult for me, and if it is not too hard then i would like tips on practicing it)
3. ) Are you suggesting that phrasing is a very important part of both movements? I have seen some pretty obvinous phrasing in moonlight 3rd, whereas i havnt looked at waldstein yet.
Do you have any tips on phrasing when playing music in general? Fast pieces especially. Also any tips on practicing these two movements will be highly appreciated.

Rehi sumpianodude,

I will refer on the 3 points numbered.

1. ) That depends on personal and technical (=musical) views and approaches. And on who writes that.

2. ) You will only THEN see whether it's too difficult for you or not, if you try playing it. And for playing it ( = here: the Waldstein ), I would kindly recommend you make up a CONCEPT first, in your brain. For example, by reading many times through the score WITHOUT the piano. And thus, play it, at first in your brain.

3. ) To the phrasing question: Yes. Because, if you don't phrase in a sensible way, you won't be able to create, for example, dialogue-structures.

To your question about phrasing in music in general: That's very important, because phrases are musical IDEAS. But WHICH ideas are to be emphasized, that's not always directly given by signs in the scores. Here, much feeling sometimes is necessary.

To play both of the movements you asked for, very much knowledge of Beethoven's patterns and habits is necessary, that means: knowledge of MANY MANY of his other works, sonatas, variations, etc., and I'm not too sure one could get the Waldstein-sonata from zero to 100 without the mentioned experience. But :

Only TRYING will teach you, whether it's available for you or not. Try it out, but FIRST: the CONCEPT!

Cordially, and good night, 8_octaves!

[sumpianodude]

K 8_octaves will do. Thx for the response!
I have listened to it countless times and have played it a few times in my head yet when i try to play it, even hands seperately, my fingers get jumbled off and i sometimes end up in the wrong keys. I may be ready for it in a few months (since a few months ago i coudnt even play past measure 9 and now I can do so much more!)
Coincidentally, I'm performing moonlight(all three) in 1-2 month's time. I may start a new thread to help me get there before i preform it.

Rehi sumpianodude,

I will refer on the 3 points numbered.

1. ) That depends on personal and technical (=musical) views and approaches. And on who writes that.

2. ) You will only THEN see whether it's too difficult for you or not, if you try playing it. And for playing it ( = here: the Waldstein ), I would kindly recommend you make up a CONCEPT first, in your brain. For example, by reading many times through the score WITHOUT the piano. And thus, play it, at first in your brain.

3. ) To the phrasing question: Yes. Because, if you don't phrase in a sensible way, you won't be able to create, for example, dialogue-structures.

To your question about phrasing in music in general: That's very important, because phrases are musical IDEAS. But WHICH ideas are to be emphasized, that's not always directly given by signs in the scores. Here, much feeling sometimes is necessary.

To play both of the movements you asked for, very much knowledge of Beethoven's patterns and habits is necessary, that means: knowledge of MANY MANY of his other works, sonatas, variations, etc., and I'm not too sure one could get the Waldstein-sonata from zero to 100 without the mentioned experience. But :

Only TRYING will teach you, whether it's available for you or not. Try it out, but FIRST: the CONCEPT!

Cordially, and good night, 8_octaves!

Personally i have not played many of beethoven's peices(ahem ahem). Though i intend to  .  I highly doubt that my piano teacher would let me get by without phrasing. I will count on her to help me or maybe I will mention it to her if she doesn't.


Thx and good night to u(its 1:00 here for me at the moment so...)

[symphonicdance]

This is an exam piece for fellowship diploma in the UK.  Quite right, it is technically and musically very challenging.  For beginner, this is certainly not a good Beethoven sonata to start with.

[mjames]

I don't wanna be an *** or anything but people like you always come here asking these dumb questions. Just the other day we had a complete beginner tell us that he's going to waste two years working on some Chopin scherzo.

if you're *** eager to play something well-known, how about you go for something that won't detriment your progress? Like the op. 37 nocturne by Chopin, or a few easy preludes, the op. 49 sonatas by Beethoven and so on. There are TONS of fun and ACCESSIBLE music for someone at your level. Why are you rushing to play something so difficult? Do you not care about the quality of music? is playing the notes just "ENOUGH" for you? Again there's no need to rush.

[sumpianodude]

I don't wanna be an *** or anything but people like you always come here asking these dumb questions. Just the other day we had a complete beginner tell us that he's going to waste two years working on some Chopin scherzo.

if you're *** eager to play something well-known, how about you go for something that won't detriment your progress? Like the op. 37 nocturne by Chopin, or a few easy preludes, the op. 49 sonatas by Beethoven and so on. There are TONS of fun and ACCESSIBLE music for someone at your level. Why are you rushing to play something so difficult? Do you not care about the quality of music? is playing the notes just "ENOUGH" for you? Again there's no need to rush.

To be honest I can see your point. But if you knew me in real life you would know why I am working on these pieces. (Any song I can play, and really want to play it enough to work on it for hours on end, I will play. Obviously I'm not as stupid as to attempt the hammerklavier here..."
For one I love the challenge. Having much more spare time than the average person my age, I tend to get bored working on mozart's k 545...
The reason I am trying to play such difficult pieces like this one is because:
There will always be something obvious to work on. Unlike trying to perfect every single detail in a easier piece, which I would need my piano teacher to point out to me, I can work on something I like and spend hours doing it and not get bored
The point of working on these is mostly for personal entertainment. However my teacher is helping me through moonlight 3rd.... I might be performing it in a bit depending on the situation...
I know you will probably yell at me for trying to preform it when I have played so little.
As for waldstein I decided to wait until I finished moonlight 3rd...
I have only worked on moonlight 3rd for a few months, I can play the notes and am working on phrasing and dynamics now...
I think I am fine right now. Working on moonlight 3rd does not seems to be detrimenting my progress, instead it seems to be doing the opposite.
I have no wish to argue on an online forum so that will be all for now
-sumpianodude

[kevonthegreatpianist]

Whoa. I passed Grade 8, and I think Waldstein's too hard!

I kinda agree with mjames (no hard feelings). You don't really need to play everything difficult. But if you just love the song, just want to go the the piano and practice until your hands are purple, then go ahead. I really like people (like me) go for the challenges. When I was about 7 and was an inexperienced pianist, I actually attempted to play Chopin's 4th Ballade. Of course, I failed. No durr. I failed on the first note because at that time, my hand wasn't big enough to reach an octave. I can span tenths now, but I just like the people who go far beyond what they can do. I'm playing the first movement of Beethoven's last sonata, Op.111, and it's really difficult. But I'm trying like hell. I'm cutting down the tempo by half, from a 120 BPM to a 60 BPM, so I can play the piece correctly through the whole thing. But I think you should get started with these pieces first.

-Chopin Nocturne Op.15 No.1
-Debussy Pour le Piano
-Debussy Clair de Lune
-Beethoven Sonata Op.14 No.1
-Czerny School of Velocity Op.899
-Mozart Sonata K 310
-Chopin Prelude Op.28 No.16 'Hades'
-Bach Fuguetta BWV 952
-Chopin Etude Op.10 No.1
-Mozart Sonata K 332
-Chopin Polonaise Op.53 'Heroic'
-Mozart Sonata K 457
-Beethoven Sonata Op.22
-Beethoven Sonata Op.111 
-Chopin Fantasy Op.49

These pieces are very challenging. But you like them and are willing to give it try, I'll be happy to give you advice.

[robc56]

If you would like play these pieces you should consider getting a teacher and work up to them. I learnt the Pathetique too early and it is hard to undo the things that you know are wrong now,even harder than the piece but then all Beethoven sonatas are great and fun to play so just do think of only the moonlight and Waldstein. Try one of the easier movements of one of the others and you will grow to like it just as much.

[sabtan]

This is an exam piece for fellowship diploma in the UK.  Quite right, it is technically and musically very challenging.  For beginner, this is certainly not a good Beethoven sonata to start with.

Yes I thought that I saw in the FTCL list. Glad you confirmed it.

To the original poster:

I don't know at what level you're a beginner, but being able to read notes is different than playing it well.
There are a lot of technical challenges to many of Beethoven's more challenging sonatas, and Waldstein is one of them.
Having said that, I also believe that you'll have to try first before you decide if it's something that you'll continue to pursue.
As others have pointed out, read the score countless times, listen to recording countless time. And then print out the score and try out yourself.
Then work with your teacher and see what his/ her response is. A good teacher will try to work with you on your desired piece, but will also be realistic enough to point out certain abilities where you can achieve ( or not) .
Good luck and enjoy!

[michael_sayers]

The tricky aspect of the Waldstein 1st movement is the pedaling.


Mvh,
Michael