Polyrhythm

[worov]

Hi, everyone !

I lately practised Scarlatti sonata K.466 (L118) which contains some polyrhythms and I had a hard time working through them, but finally I managed to do it somehow.

I'm looking for pieces with polyrhythms to perfect my rhythmic abilities. I would prefer triplets and quavers because I'm at the most basic stage in polyrhythms.

I'm not that advanced. I'm more an of intermediate (I can't say what grade). I have managed some preludes and fugues by J.S. Bach (my favourite composer) and some Haydn early sonatas, some Chopin easy preludes, some Scarlatti sonatas (another favourite of mine).

I have no preference to any era I enjoy all of the them from Henry Purcell to Lowell Liebermann (though I'm not too keen on atonalism and serial music).

So if any of you have some suggestions of pieces which I could tackle to work on this, I would be very grateful.

Sorry for my english. I'm not a native speaker.

Worov

[mjames]

a really good suggestion that's often given by J is to work on Debussy's 1st arabesque.

[worov]

I'm going to check this out.

Who's "J" ?

[mjames]

Look out for Chopin's Op. 48 no. 2 nocturne. 3 against 2 all over the place, and it's also not even technically demanding. So you should give that one a try too.

[louispodesta]

Hi, everyone !

I lately practised Scarlatti sonata K.466 (L118) which contains some polyrhythms and I had a hard time working through them, but finally I managed to do it somehow.

I'm looking for pieces with polyrhythms to perfect my rhythmic abilities. I would prefer triplets and quavers because I'm at the most basic stage in polyrhythms.

I'm not that advanced. I'm more an of intermediate (I can't say what grade). I have managed some preludes and fugues by J.S. Bach (my favourite composer) and some Haydn early sonatas, some Chopin easy preludes, some Scarlatti sonatas (another favourite of mine).

I have no preference to any era I enjoy all of the them from Henry Purcell to Lowell Liebermann (though I'm not too keen on atonalism and serial music).

So if any of you have some suggestions of pieces which I could tackle to work on this, I would be very grateful.

Sorry for my english. I'm not a native speaker.

Worov

1)  Per the Op's request, Brahms and Debussy used polyrhythms extensively.  Just pick a piece you like and want to learn how to play.

2)  Accordingly, and I posted this many years ago, it is high time that "some" website (pianiostreet) dedicate an entire discourse to this subject.  Because, every single classical pianist on earth has to deal with this problem.

And, for those who have not had the benefit of a teacher who taught them this skill, don 't hand me this junk about it being no big deal.  It is a very big deal!!

Why?  Because, with the exception of two against three (Debussy Arabesque No. 1), or (Brahms Intermezzo Op. 118  No.2), there is three against four (Chopin),  and two against five (Prokofiev).

Is it not the collective purposive nature of this website for all of us to "learn."

[j_menz]

I'm going to check this out.

Who's "J" ?

C'est moi.

The advantage of the Debussy is that the polyrhythm (2v3) is unrelenting, and the texture sparse enough to really force you to get it right. It may even help you to develop the independence of the two lines that is at the heart of true polyrhythmic playing.

For 3v4, Chopin's first of the Trois Nouvelle Etudes is excellent, and for much the same reason.

I'd suggest you start with the Debussy, then do the Chopin. Both will seem difficult, but in each case the difficulty is pretty much confined to the polyrhythm. In any case, it's not speed you should be aiming for.

[michael_c]

Also practice polyrhythms away from the piano. Tap two with one hand against three with the other. Start slowly, making sure that the rhythm that the two hands make together is precisely as it should be. Then gradually speed it up. See if you can concentrate on the feel of one hand - either the duplet or the triplet feel - without the other hand losing control.

When you get good at that, you can start introducing variations. For instance, try making a big accent on the first tap in each group. Then try to make the whole thing as even as possible, without any accents. Or see if you can instantly change over, so that the hand that was tapping two now taps three and vice-versa.

When you're happy with two against three, move on to three against four.

[worov]

I had a look at the Debussy last night. After twenty minutes practicing,  it's surprisingly coming out pretty good. The flowing is not natural but I will get to it with practice.

Thanks to everyone for the recommendations. I'll have a look at Brahms and Chopin later. I don't have the sheet music for Brahms. I will order at the music store. When I'll receive it, I may have mastered the Debussy.

Why?  Because, with the exception of two against three (Debussy Arabesque No. 1), or (Brahms Intermezzo Op. 118  No.2), there is three against four (Chopin),  and two against five (Prokofiev).

Prokofiev is one of my favourite modern composers. May I ask which piece ? Two against five is way out of my league, so I won't work on it now. But I may save it for later practice.

C'est moi.

Nice to meet you.

I will save the Chopin Nouvelle Etude for later practice too.

Thank you to all of you for your advices and recommendations.

[michael_c]

A great lesson on polyrhythms from C.K. Ladzekpo:

(That's just the first instalment: there are 2 more on YouTube)

[8_octaves]

I would prefer triplets and quavers

Hi Worov,

polyrhythm has, according to scientists, probably its origins in Africa. So, videos of Africans on polyrhythm, as michael_c shows them, might be very relevant!

But I remembered this one, too, by a European master:

https://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/e/eb/IMSLP06014-Beethoven_violin_concerto.pdf

For a section to look at - and perhaps - train it: Movement 1, bars 315-324 , came to my mind, and under all circumstances try to play as much of the 3 systems as possible with both hands. For training purposes, start like that: To begin, play the violin-voice with the right hand, and the piano's right hand with your left hand!!

Then, when that works fine, ADD as much of the piano's left hand to your left hand, too!   
( I've got such a version of it, too, and it's lots of fun. And it can be very motivating, to work on the WHOLE concerto, which is long and not easy, if one plays / tries to play as much as possible from the violin-voice simultaneously, too, but: its a wonderful super-concert, which is very much fun on the piano, too! )

Pls. have a look on op. 61 a ( for piano + orch. ), too, but I - subjectively- prefer these versions (piano + violin ) .

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[louispodesta]

Accordingly, and I posted this many years ago, it is high time that "some" website (pianiostreet) dedicate an entire discourse to this subject.  Because, every single classical pianist on earth has to deal with this problem.

Is it not the collective purposive nature of this website for all of us to "learn."

Once again.

[worov]

Thank you Michael C and 8_octaves.

I'm familiar with the Beethoven concerto. I'll practice this bit tonight.

I'll listen to some African drum playing too.

Once again.

Yes, Louis Podesta. I read that. You don't have to post twice : once is enough. Thank you.

I also read your post history and indeed you wrote some posts about Dalcroze Eurhythmics and polyrhythms, mostly this one :
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=51373.0

It deals with the Debussy and the Brahms. Thank you for the thread. I'm not sure that the transposition trick is really efficient, but I'll give it a try.

However there is not a word about Prokofiev's two against five in your post history except this very thread. Do you except me to read and listen every piece Prokofiev ever wrote ? That could take long a time.

[j_menz]

However there is not a word about Prokofiev's two against five

My advice is to leave that well alone for the moment. Most classical pianists have some difficulty with 5/4 on its own, much less as part of a polyrhythm. 5v3 is probably more common in any case, but unless you already have  particular piece you want to play that requires a particular variety, you'd be better off spending your time learning the underlying principles.