Moonlight third movement practice video

[sumpianodude]

I am only level three but I just practice whatever I want to practice, etc. without caring about wether I am ready. However I do try to make it musical and stuff(why I am posting this vid) so since I really loved this piece I thought "why not go for it?"
Been working on it for a bit. Obviously trills and coda needs improvements, and a few (a lot) mess-ups here and there. But I'm looking for tips on phrasing and musicality. Any reply would be much appreciated

[sumpianodude]

Please wait for the video to process

[expressman70]

IDK man, I think you too work on in slow tempo all the way, like its falling apart from the beginning, and if I were to be more honest, id say work on pieces that could bring your level up to this one, because this seems a little too hard for you. IDK for how long you played this, but if you are saying for a while, it might mean you still need more foundation. And this Im only speaking about technique, not even saying a word about musical maturity one needs to have to execute this correctly.

[sumpianodude]

IDK man, I think you too work on in slow tempo all the way, like its falling apart from the beginning, and if I were to be more honest, id say work on pieces that could bring your level up to this one, because this seems a little too hard for you. IDK for how long you played this, but if you are saying for a while, it might mean you still need more foundation. And this Im only speaking about technique, not even saying a word about musical maturity one needs to have to execute this correctly.

So I shouldn't work on this peice yet? (I kinda already know that just making sure)

[mikeowski]

Since you've memorized all the pieces' notes I'm assuming you've already spent a considerable amount of time on it. If you keep practicing it you probably won't progress a lot more, if at all, because - as expressman70 said - you simply lack the foundation.
You have a lot of tension in your wrists and arms and you won't get rid of that by ingraining more of the same bad movement patterns into your brain. Trying to force your way through will only make things worse and you might eventually hurt yourself.
So, maybe back off and try to learn something more appropriate to your level. Bach Inventions (may I suggest #1?) would be great .

[chopinlover01]

The other posters are right, but since you asked for musical ideas (and I have nothing else to say that hasn't been said by them), I'll give you some musical ideas.
1) The left hand needs to be a lot quieter in general
2) On those first runs, the RH should be quiet as well; my edition (a compilation book of some of Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms' music) has "non crescendo" specifically marked as performance text. So, piano or mezzo piano, and then power out those two fortissimo chords.
Other than that, I won't encourage you any more

[mjames]

And you're the kid who wanted to play the Waldstein? Oh boy, dude just drop it..

At least now you know the notes. Leave it and come back to it in the near future. No matter how hard you try, you won't get to it level you want it to.

[sumpianodude]

Ok thanks.
At least i got replies
That was pretty much what I expected.   
Guess I'm dropping it. Taking a visit to some other songs(including that Bach invention there) When (at what grade level) can I revisit this?

[mjames]

Depends on what you do and how you progress in between. It won't mean much if you waste a huge amount of time on something that's way above your level, but if you practice properly, properly establish the fundamentals, and play pieces according to and slightly above your level then I'm sure you'll be able to play it decently in no time. It's all about knowing how to practice. Remember, enjoy playing piano, and don't rush. You've got plenty of time.

[j_menz]

When (at what grade level) can I revisit this?

Rather later than you might have had you waited.  You've learnt a lot of wrong notes, and quite a bit of bad fingering/technique/movement. Sadly, that sticks.

I still make the same mistakes I did a squillion years ago in pieces I learnt waaay to soon and too badly. It's a right pain, but it just goes to show that those people who say "get the basics down first and don't overreach" do actually have a point.

[pianoplayer002]

Musical feedback: Every single place where you have anything faster than an 8th note is really really uneven and lots of mistakes. Unfortunately this goes under the "musical" category too since you aren't really playing the music when its this messy. Everything is forte too, you should play piano where it says piano and forte where it says forte. The reason you can't play it musically with any control is because your hands and wrists are very tense. This is too high above your level and you do not possess the technical tools to know how to solve this piece yet. Yeah, drop it dude.

[sumpianodude]

Musical feedback: Every single place where you have anything faster than an 8th note is really really uneven and lots of mistakes. Unfortunately this goes under the "musical" category too since you aren't really playing the music when its this messy. Everything is forte too, you should play piano where it says piano and forte where it says forte. The reason you can't play it musically with any control is because your hands and wrists are very tense. This is too high above your level and you do not possess the technical tools to know how to solve this piece yet. Yeah, drop it dude.

I know. I have
Speaking of technique, my teacher is having me do Hannon. I have read lots of other forum posts regardi this and I am not sure wether it is the most effective way to improve technique?
Did anyone here use it? How well does it work? Is it worth you time?

[mikeowski]

Hanon is sometimes a controversial topic. In my opinion it's a load of bull. You'd be better off just learning some pieces.
I learned all of my technique from pieces and I don't think I've missed out on anything. I'm not trying to brag, but just to give you an idea, I performed Chopin's Op. 10/4 to - I think - a reasonable standard in a recital a few weeks ago after having now played for a little longer than 4 years (1 of that without a teacher). I've never done anything like Hanon or Czerny excercises, not even scales or arpeggios (those are however different from the infamous Mr. H and C and probably a good idea), only pieces. Worked very well for me so far.
I think Hanon is at best worthless clutter and at worst damaging. Stay away if possible.
Also, it would be very advisable to check out Bernhard's practice methods here on the forum. They're something that can really work wonders.
Then try to apply them to the next piece you're learning.

[sumpianodude]

Funny, I was just looking this forum as ou posted this
www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=18553.0b

[yadeehoo]

It's fine to practice challenging pieces, the trick is the have the diligence to learn them much slower than you would, this sweet spot right before you want to speed up, then hold it.... just like when you're making love, hoooold it

Also this piece is mostly about LH RH Sync and arpeggios, just learn the arpeggios like any others, C#m, G#, C#dim or whatever it's called, and turn it in small micro etudes. You can learn from any piece of any level, once you learnt ... patience.

[rmbarbosa]

I would like to know what Mr. Chang think about this...
Because I feel you may play this better and better if you work hard this third movement. If you have a teacher, he can teach you the correct movements of fingers, hands, wrist... but I don`t think you cant play this well in a few months.
Best wishes
rui

[sumpianodude]

I consulted my teacher. She said we would work on this very slowly. I havnt got as much time to have her listen to it as I woudve liked as I am learning ten other really short peices and we hponly have 45 minutes every week. I have dropped this until further notice (see previous post).

[stoyo]

For learning difficult pieces (beyond our current level) would be better to master at sections and then add them together or slow tempo full piece?

What would be faster and more accurate?
Thanks

[expressman70]

For learning difficult pieces (beyond our current level) would be better to master at sections and then add them together or slow tempo full piece?

What would be faster and more accurate?
Thanks

Both. First sections at slow tempo. And when you have done that, you can begin to connect them together. The fact is that more complex pieces are really more complex. Every phrase can contain a lot of musical/technical nuances, that you can drill for hours. If you rush and play the whole thing over and over at first, its a waste. That is of course what I learned. Sight reading is also very important, but that is whole different topic.

[sumpianodude]

Looking over this entire post, I just realized how confusing everything is.
Half the people tell me to stop, others say I can play this if I practice correctly.
Half say I can revisit this soon, the other half say I have built bad foundation.
I really don't know what to think anymore.
 

[outin]

I really don't know what to think anymore.
 

Read everything, but don't expect someone to tell you how to think right. Experiment, do some critical thinking and make up your own mind. There's always a chance of failure or success, what you can do is raise the odds. No-one seems to have found a universal recipe for success yet, although many spend a lot of time arguing about it

[piano6888]

This is a pretty good attempt given your current level, and you're not as bad as you think you are.  I would stand by the advice that others have given, no matter how much you work on the piece, you do lack the foundation that is needed to tackle a piece at this caliber, especially the technique and musical maturity.  A piece like this would be sitting on par with conservatory level repertoire and it would take many years of constant practice as well as solid foundations in technique to master this piece.  This would be closer to a grade 7-8 piano piece.

This is coming from someone who has taken lessons for 9 years and played the piano for over 15 years, as well as having attended a conservatory for a short time.  I don't want to discourage you, but once again, I do believe that there are lots of ground and foundations to cover and make solid before one is able to tackle such a piece.  The first two movements are fine and I believe you can do those without much worry. 

[sumpianodude]

This is a pretty good attempt given your current level, and you're not as bad as you think you are.  I would stand by the advice that others have given, no matter how much you work on the piece, you do lack the foundation that is needed to tackle a piece at this caliber, especially the technique and musical maturity.  A piece like this would be sitting on par with conservatory level repertoire and it would take many years of constant practice as well as solid foundations in technique to master this piece.  This would be closer to a grade 7-8 piano piece.

This is coming from someone who has taken lessons for 9 years and played the piano for over 15 years, as well as having attended a conservatory for a short time.  I don't want to discourage you, but once again, I do believe that there are lots of ground and foundations to cover and make solid before one is able to tackle such a piece.  The first two movements are fine and I believe you can do those without much worry. 

Sounds like tension is a big problem in piano. Or else why would anyone talk about it?  I think I will ask my teacher(as always)
Speaking of which, how come moonlight(full) is on the repitoire for DipABRSM? (The first diploma, i think). The third is obviously harder than the first 2 and if the third is at lv7-8...
Speaking of which, I am performing the first 2 in a bit. The second movement is very... How should I say it?... Note-y. The articulation in hat peice is insane.

[chopinlover01]

It's because when they play it for the examinors, they're playing the entire sonata, not just one movement of it.

[sumpianodude]

It's because when they play it for the examinors, they're playing the entire sonata, not just one movement of it.

Ik but the 3rd movement is easily the hardest of the entire sonata...
Playing the entire sonata shouldn't make it harder to play in comparison to playing the movements individually(I am pretty sure about that part)
If, say, the first movement was level 2, the second 5, and the thrid 7(Not accurate. I just made it up), then shouldn't the  entire sonata be lv 7? Why DipABRSM?

[mjames]

Ik but the 3rd movement is easily the hardest of the entire sonata...
Playing the entire sonata shouldn't make it harder to play in comparison to playing the movements individually(I am pretty sure about that part)
If, say, the first movement was level 2, the second 5, and the thrid 7(Not accurate. I just made it up), then shouldn't the  entire sonata be lv 7? Why DipABRSM?

Yeah, that guy's probably an advanced pianist. Right now I'm around the grade 7 and grade 8 levels, and the third movement's definitely not a grade 7 piece lol.

Anyways, like the other dude said, playing one movement is not the same as playing an entire set/sonata.

[j_menz]

Ik but the 3rd movement is easily the hardest of the entire sonata...

Nope.  The first is. The third is the easiest.

[mjames]

Ditto. It's really hard to make the music "move" so it doesn't sound static and bland. Whereas with the third movement, even though the technical acrobatics is tougher, musical expression is definitely easier.

Kinda like say, Chopin's first scherzo. Hard not to sound good, the musical expression comes with the score. You don't have to try hard to "bring it out." That's the sort of impression the 3rd movement gives me.

[visitor]

If anything is to be taken away , it is that it's highly individualistic.  I agree w the comment that the first mvmnt is harder to pull of convincingly than the third.

As for me for example ( to show how really just depends ). I struggled most with the 2nd movement, and it is actually  my favorite part of the whole sonata.  However in my music school performances  and jury it was that minuet that I got lowest marks for and I worked most on that one.  The character if that thing is a bugger to nail.

Standards . It really depends on the std by which you define success in the learning effort if this ( or any) piece

[sumpianodude]

Nope.  The first is. The third is the easiest.

the first movement isn't DipABRSM, is it?

[anamnesis]

the first movement isn't DipABRSM, is it?

The first is difficult because it's overplayed so you need to devote more time to it.

Also, arguably, the standard interpretation of the piece and how it is traditionally played ignores the actual music character of the piece if one actually took the time to look at the score.  

The triplets provide a background ostinato that provides continuity, but they do NOT drive the piece and should not be overemphasized.  The slow plodding pace most people play it makes it even worse.  

The piece has an adagio tempo marking, but it is in cut time.  Meaning that the adagio pace should be felt at the level of the half notes, NOT the triplets.  The piece should still feel slow and steady by emphasizing the larger phrase structure, despite the triplets being sped up (making the triplets more of a background feature compensates for this).  

Both Benjamin Zander and Andras Schiff argue for a faster pace than how it is normally played:

https://www.benjaminzander.com/recordings/boston-philharmonic/beet9/review/130

[sumpianodude]

The triplets provide a background ostinato that provides continuity, but they do NOT drive the piece and should not be overemphasized.  The slow plodding pace most people play it makes it even worse.  

The piece has an adagio tempo marking, but it is in cut time.  Meaning that the adagio pace should be felt at the level of the half notes, NOT the triplets.

I thought that was how everyone played it, no?
I have not seen anyone play as if the triplets were part of the melody. Perhaps I have just not heard enough of it.
At what tempo marking do you think this should be played?

[j_menz]

the first movement isn't DipABRSM, is it?

The ABRSM syllabus is not the measure of all things (nor is any other syllabus).

Many pieces are graded on the basis that a pianist of a certain level of ability can be expected to play the notes and do something with them. A grade three performance of the first movement is possible (in a way that a Grade three performance of the third movement is not).

However, that is hardly the end of the matter. A DipABRSM level performance is also possible.

The first movement  requires a highly developed musicianship. It also requires an exquisite level of control - purely technical control - and is highly exposed. Some pieces are relatively forgiving of less control (not no control - it's a matter of degree), but this isn't one of them.

I thought that was how everyone played it, no?

No. Most base the pulse on the triplets - one beat per triplet - so play it in common time, not cut time. This isn't a matter of tempo, it's a matter of rhythm. 

Though, FWIW, I agree most play it much too slow.