Jesus Walking on Water by Franz Liszt

[michael_sayers]

It sure sounds to me like Liszt had a hand in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdPQj4pXovQ


Mvh,
Michael

[ahinton]

It sure sounds to me like Liszt had a hand in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdPQj4pXovQMvh,
Michael

Not to my ears, it doesn't; yes, certain proto-Lisztian implications might be perceived in places by some ears, but neither this nor anything else that I've heard from RB indicates that these works are actually "by" the composers from whom they were supposedly sourced or by whom they were purportedly dictated unless, as I mentioned elsewhere, composers go through the misfortune of some form of creative "decompsition" after death...

Best,

Alistair

[michael_sayers]

Hi Alistair,

I have recently completed a composition for which the harmonic and melodic content of the first 23 measures, with a simplified piano arrangement of the music content for me to improve upon, was given to me by Franz Liszt.  In the initial simplified arrangement presentation those 23 measures are very similar in some ways to the sketch-like arrangements of Rosemary Brown's Liszt compositions.


Mvh,
Michael

[thalbergmad]

I was having a pint with Franz last night down the Kings Arms and he cannot remember giving you anything.

Thal

[michael_sayers]

I was having a pint with Franz last night down the Kings Arms and he cannot remember giving you anything.

Thal

Hi Thal,

It must have been a case of mistaken identity.


Mvh,
Michael

[ronde_des_sylphes]

In my honest opinion, that's someone trying to write Liszt and briefly diverging into Rachmaninov. It's not harmonically clever enough for either. The Eb meno mosso is very nearly a nice moment, but I think Liszt would have written C natural on the third beat chord of the second bar, and similarly in parallel moments later - sounds much more effective to my ears, at least.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

And, in the related videos tab, I found this:

which is just about the least convincing ersatz Chopin I have ever heard. It's so unconvincing I'm sure I could do better.

[thalbergmad]

Being part of the spirit World seems to consistently hinder artistry.

Thal

[ahinton]

Being part of the spirit World seems to consistently hinder artistry.

I would agree wholeheartedly with you other than for the fact that a wee dram or three of the amber nectar never did any Scottish composer any harm, to the best of my knowledge (and, of course, I refer here to Scottish composers who were living at the time, since I've never encountered or indeed read of any who allegedly imbibed following his/her demise).

It's all to easy to scoff - and I try not to do this - but, that said, I am simply unconvinced of what some have ascribed to the Brown achievements on the various grounds that I've tried to express to the best of my ability, such as it may be, earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Hi Alistair,

I have recently completed a composition for which the harmonic and melodic content of the first 23 measures, with a simplified piano arrangement of the music content for me to improve upon, was given to me by Franz Liszt.  In the initial simplified arrangement presentation those 23 measures are very similar in some ways to the sketch-like arrangements of Rosemary Brown's Liszt compositions.

Mvh,
Michael

I'm not clear from what you write here whether or not you are seking to claim similar experiences that have been ascribed to Brown, but what I've written before about this stands, not least in terms of deceased composers' motivations in such alleged attempts at communication (even were it technically possible).

Best,

Alistair

[michael_sayers]

And, in the related videos tab, I found this:

which is just about the least convincing ersatz Chopin I have ever heard. It's so unconvincing I'm sure I could do better.

Hi Ronde_des_sylphes,

I'm not keen on publicly critiquing pianists, but what can be observed is that the selection isn't played in a 19th century performance style, and that possibly the overall tempo and also expressive sensibility chosen here by Leslie Howard isn't what would be most convincing.

One can observe that in Rosemary Brown's own piano playing she asynchronized the voices, as here -

Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

I'm not clear from what you write here whether or not you are seeking to claim similar experiences that have been ascribed to Brown, but what I've written before about this stands, not least in terms of deceased composers' motivations in such alleged attempts at communication (even were it technically possible).

Best,

Alistair

Hi Alistair,

Though Liszt has proven himself to me, he doesn't seem interested to prove himself to others through me.  Liszt could communicate something to me about you that you think only you know, for instance, but such things don't seem likely to happen.  He does, however, seem to know everything about music and composers, including music going into the future, and he knows all sorts of obscurities.  The best evidence will be when the Handel-Liszt transcription for piano solo discussed elsewhere is brought into the light, unless one wants to conclude that I am a very lucky guesser at choosing a composer, a transcribed composer, a composition title, and the instrumentation, for an otherwise (and presumably) unreferenced item which turns out to exist.

To say that phenomenon such as this are technically impossible expresses a conclusion which can not be verified.  No doubt the phenomenon is quite rare and this is no surprise to me personally.  When one is immersed with what is on the other side, the desire to be in or to have contact with anything of this world dissipates - that has been my experience of it.  I don't think anyone would be likely to return to, or re-interact with, this world except by special compulsion or command.

And I don't think Liszt wants to be in touch with me, so his motivations are not a factor.  The sense is that he is being made to do this.

Rosemary Brown's experiences, as she described them, don't seem to have nearly the intensity or overwhelming transformatory force of my own experiences.  She doesn't seem to have been temporarily destabilized by them psychologically into, however briefly, wanting to give away all her worldy possessions and truly having no thought of tomorrow.  Such an experience or experiences should be profoundly reorienting in some way, and one doesn't get that from R.B.


Mvh,
Michael

[outin]

One can observe that in Rosemary Brown's own piano playing she asynchronized the voices, as here -

But of course neither of the compositions sound nothing like Chopin to me...there are many more Chopinisque pieces by real composers...

[ronde_des_sylphes]

.. what can be observed is that the selection isn't played in a 19th century performance style, and that possibly the overall tempo and also expressive sensibility chosen here by Leslie Howard isn't what would be most convincing.

Yes, I agree completely (the late Pater Katin's playing in the original example is a lot more convincing). But what I also noticed was the un-Chopinesque metrical regularity of the ornamentation (completely at odds with any improvisation genesis of ornamentation, I note!), and the chordal writing was sub-Lisztian, Harmonically it was very unconvincing and there appeared to be "lifts" from a variety of approximate contemporaries.

[michael_sayers]

I found this blog post which is informative:

https://elenedom.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/the-music-of-rosemary-brown-from-a-pianists-perspective/

With a little more digging I found a reference that there are more than 600 of these compositions.  It isn't a research quality reference, but it would be good to know the source of that number.


Mvh,
Michael