Chopin/Schumann

[robatsch]

I'm not sure who this quotation is attributed to but I recently read that "Schumann is the thinking man's Chopin."  I was wondering what this means.  Is Chopin really much more accessible to the average listener?  Also, how would you compare the Chopin ballades to works like Schumann's Fantasy in C and the Kreisleriana?

[j_menz]

Also, how would you compare the Chopin ballades to works like Schumann's Fantasy in C and the Kreisleriana?

They're shorter.

[michael_sayers]

Is Chopin really much more accessible to the average listener?

Some persons just don't like Robert Schumann's music.  I think though that maybe this has something to do with the style in which it is being performed and recorded.


Mvh,
Michael

[visitor]

Hmm maybe is referring to Clara?  Then I think may be legit
I always thought Bob Schummy was was the deaf dude's Chopin, at least I believe I had read that as a quote somewhere..

[diomedes]

"Schumann is the thinking man's Chopin."

Never heard anything of the sort, sounds subjective. If anything, Schumann is the opposite rash, impulsive, romantic.

They're shorter.

That answers the question just about right.

[j_menz]

I always thought Bob Schummy was was the deaf dude's Chopin,

Given your views on Fred, that's particularly harsh.

[visitor]

Given your views on Fred, that's particularly harsh.

lol. Fred's a polarizing figure in my world.   

[michael_sayers]

I'm not sure who this quotation is attributed to but I recently read that "Schumann is the thinking man's Chopin."  I was wondering what this means.  Is Chopin really much more accessible to the average listener?  Also, how would you compare the Chopin ballades to works like Schumann's Fantasy in C and the Kreisleriana?

Hi Robatsch,

I wonder if by chance you happen to be a chess player?

for your ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robatsch


Mvh,
Michael

[thalbergmad]

Chopin is at least a romantic, albeit an effeminate one. There is nothing romantic in the slightest about Schumann.

His Germanic disposition and dislike of virtuoso display denied him the higher poetry and the fireworks. Utter shite really.

Thal

[visitor]

Chopin is at least a romantic, albeit an effeminate one. There is nothing romantic in the slightest about Schumann.

His Germanic disposition and dislike of virtuoso display denied him the higher poetry and the fireworks. Utter shite really.

Thal

perhaps it  is the in decisiveness

lolz

[robatsch]

Hi Robatsch,

I wonder if by chance you happen to be a chess player?

for your ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robatsch


Mvh,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm a former tournament chess player but I'm now hooked on piano and haven't played serious chess for about three years now. 

[ewalker1]

There is nothing romantic in the slightest about Schumann.

Interesting! I was went to a class held by İdil Biret not so long ago, she mentioned her thoughts on that Schumann was the most romantic of all composers!

[amytsuda]

What I know is that Chopin was physically ill but mentally okay, and Schumann was physically okay but mentally ill, and both needed a strong woman to take care of them. You can kind of hear that in their music - So I think Chopin is the thinking man's of Schumann, not the other way around. As a woman, I prefer Chopin, but that's my personal choice...

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I struggle to see any point of contact between Chopin and Schumann - completely different composers who just happened to live at the same time. Tbh I think Schumann + talent = Brahms, but that's a personal opinion.

Hi Robatsch,

I wonder if by chance you happen to be a chess player?

By association, that was the first thing I thought of when I read the thread! (I was quite a serious player 20+ odd years ago).

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Also, how would you compare the Chopin ballades to works like Schumann's Fantasy in C and the Kreisleriana?

They're shorter.

Yes, more concise, more clearly structured, and better organised in general. I've never thought Schumann's grasp of structure was particularly good, and find him prone to rambling.

[chopinlover01]

perhaps it  is the in decisiveness

lolz

Well played, my friend, well played.

[swagmaster420x]

Chopin is at least a romantic, albeit an effeminate one. There is nothing romantic in the slightest about Schumann.

His Germanic disposition and dislike of virtuoso display denied him the higher poetry and the fireworks. Utter shite really.

Thal

Does the albeit imply that effeminate romantics are inferior to others?

[chopinlover01]

Just say no, Thal, because if you don't, you'll piss off every feminist on piano street 

[thalbergmad]

Yes

[ahinton]

Chopin is at least a romantic, albeit an effeminate one.

Effeminate? B minor scherzo? C# minor scherzo? The stormier parts of the F major Ballade? &c. &c.?

There is nothing romantic in the slightest about Schumann.

His Germanic disposition and dislike of virtuoso display denied him the higher poetry and the fireworks. Utter shite really.

Yawn. Was Schumann a lesser composer than Chopin? In general terms, probably so - but would I want to do without the Fantaisie, Piano Quintet, Études Symphoniques, &c.? No way! And at least Schumann could write for other media besides piano...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I struggle to see any point of contact between Chopin and Schumann

So, it seems, did Chopin himself.

Best,

Alistair

[cuberdrift]

Effeminate? I thought Chopin had a girlfriend?

[outin]

Effeminate? I thought Chopin had a girlfriend?

One wearing trousers

[chopinlover01]

Effeminate? I thought Chopin had a girlfriend?

A girlfriend who was under the persona of a man almost all the time, and who also acted very masculine- George Sand smoked cigars, wore male clothes, and swore like one, allegedly.

[amytsuda]

Don't you think Schumann is feminine too?

[ahinton]

A girlfriend who was under the persona of a man almost all the time, and who also acted very masculine- George Sand smoked cigars, wore male clothes, and swore like one, allegedly.

But he wasn't with her for very long...

What that got to do with the subject anyway/ I thought that we were discussing the relative merits of Chopin's and Schumann's music...

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

But he wasn't with her for very long...

?... About 9 years...that's a long time considering his adult life only lasted for about 20 years...

[mjames]

Isn't weird and cool how we're talking about some dude's love affair almost 200 years after he broke up with her?

But yeah, Thal wasn't talking about his personality. He was talking about Chopin's music being effeminate. Which I agree with wholeheartedly. And yes Hinton, including the Scherzos.

[chopinlover01]

The love affair to me is more interesting because of the fact that Chopin, an introspective and reserved man, who was also a giant in music and piano at the time, ended up with her.
As far as his music being effeminate, I think his lyrical sections definitely show that quality (as do Schumann's works). Funny enough, the example that's coming to mind is the B minor scherzo.
All of his works have some degree of that to them, definitely some more than others- I'm studying the A flat ballade right now and it's full of those characteristics.
At his most passionate, though, I think Chopin wrote melodies that are along the lines of Beethoven and Brahms in terms of genius and agitation, so to speak.

[j_menz]

I think Chopin wrote melodies that are along the lines of Beethoven and Brahms in terms of genius and agitation, so to speak.

Nope. And a-long is the key here. Beethoven, and to a lesser extent Brahms, could take an idea and hold it for 20 minutes or an hour. Chopin can't do that for 5 minutes.

[outin]

Nope. And a-long is the key here. Beethoven, and to a lesser extent Brahms, could take an idea and hold it for 20 minutes or an hour. Chopin can't do that for 5 minutes.

Which is exactly why his music is not boring...

[outin]

The love affair to me is more interesting because of the fact that Chopin, an introspective and reserved man, who was also a giant in music and piano at the time, ended up with her.

Why wouldn't he? After all, she was not a bad housekeeper and nurse afaik...Chopin seemed to be quite willing to let people take care of him (as well as his finances).

[ahinton]

Isn't weird and cool how we're talking about some dude's love affair almost 200 years after he broke up with her?

But yeah, Thal wasn't talking about his personality. He was talking about Chopin's music being effeminate. Which I agree with wholeheartedly. And yes Hinton, including the Scherzos.

Well, I suppose that there might be perceptibly "effeminate" ways in which to play the two Scherzi that I mentioned, or the F# minor Polonaise, F major and F minor Ballades and much else besides should certain pianists so choose, but that doesn't make the pieces themselves "effeminate". You're entitled to your opinion, but many, including Peter Maxwell Davies, wouldn't agree with you and it does a disservice to Chopin to play his work in ways that suggests that they're other than what the composer intended. I doubt that anyone would accuse Alkan of having written "effeminate" music, yet he loved and respected the music of his friend Chopin.

Having said that, this alleged/perceived "effeminacy" in Chopin's work is nothing new; years ago, Sorabji used to complain about performances that he described as "milk-and-water" Chopin and "drawing-room-languishing" Chopin, but these criticisms were quite clearly about the perfomances rather than the music itself.

Anyway, as I mentioned previously, I had thought that this thread was at least in part about comparing the music of Chopin with that of Schumann (and, as we know, Schumann, like Alkan, thought very highly of Chopin's work but Chopin just didnt "get" Schumann's) and discussion of "effeminacy" of expression (whatever that might be, if anything at all) is hardly instructive or informative in respect of either composer; try a limp-wristed "effeminate" performance of Schumann's Toccata and see how silly that sounds - and then perhaps catch Pollini playing Chopin's Études or Argerich (or Pogorelich when he was still able to play as he did in his youth) and figure out where the "effeminacy" of expression is to be found in them.

Schumann's grasp of form was certainly inferior to Chopin's most of the time (though there are undoubtedly exceptions) and yes, he can be prone to "rambling" on occasion (the piano sonatas are just one case in point) but, although Thal disagrees fundamentally, I find that there's still plenty of worthwhile music from this composer.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

As far as his music being effeminate, I think his lyrical sections definitely show that quality (as do Schumann's works). Funny enough, the example that's coming to mind is the B minor scherzo.

That's a particularly interesting example where the outer sections are arguably the nearest that Chopin gets to violence of expression and that sense of near-violence is also enhanced by the sheer violence of contrast between those sections and the middle one which is so rudely interrupted at the end when the opening two chords of the work reappear. But subject to the individual's definition of "effeminacy" - and, by and large, it would appear that it tends more often to be used as a pejorative - I don't perceive it in any of Chopin's music - and how anyone could contrive to play the final two pages of, for example, the F minor Ballade in an "effeminate" manner is entirely beyond me.

Best,

Alistair

[j_menz]

Which is exactly why his music is not boring...

Go take up Haydn. It's love in the offing.

[outin]

Go take up Haydn. It's love in the offing.

For some reason I've always had zero interest for that guy...

[ahinton]

For some reason I've always had zero interest for that guy...

Then you don't know what you're missing!

Best,

Alistair

[outin]

Then you don't know what you're missing!

Considering my feelings for classical period music I doubt it. And I haven't been able to avoid his music completely anyway...

[thalbergmad]

Effeminate? B minor scherzo? C# minor scherzo? The stormier parts of the F major Ballade? &c. &c.?

If you look globally at his entire opii, I do not think that using the word effeminate is wide of the mark. He was capable of agitation, but i doubt if his own performances of the works you mention would be described as stormy.

Thalberg too could be described as effeminate. I do not look at it as a criticism, merely an observation. It does in itself not make Chopin a greater composer than Schumann, albeit only an a sponge would consider Schumann the superior of the two.

Thal

[diomedes]

The c sharp scherzo compositionally does sound somewhat granite and masculine, although i've heard it played with a different "effeminate" approach too. I think it's possible. I recall reading that it was the one work that was dedicated to a male student of his, and stories circulated that he was indeed masculine too.

Attempting to make statements as to which composer is better etc is a deflating thing to do, you either relate to one or not. Quite a few years back a teacher of mine told me that one day I'd like Schumann too, when i'm older. I disliked him then. I think he did some things really well. I should really listen to his symphonies, but as is, his symphonic variations, fantasie and sonatas are incredible compositions. And Richter playing the toccata is a bloody riot. Especially at the age which he did it.

I intend to learn the concerto eventually, i guess. I wonder how i'll feel about it after the process. Too many things to do now.

Go take up Haydn. It's love in the offing.

I used to listen to his quartets, and often really liked the symphonies. But if i'm really listening to something, i'd still much rather it be Froberger.

[visitor]

whoops 

[amytsuda]

Isn't feminine composition a good thing? Delicate, sensitive, aesthetic, expressive and quick mood change, underlining double messages, etc. Chopin loved Sopranos and Schumann composed a lot of piano music for Clara. Of course, Schumann and Chopin are in the end men, they packaged those qualities into more masculine outlets. These diverse qualities are exactly why pianists love their compositions. It gives great pianistic challenges. It's just that Schumann didn't have the mental health needed to structure his compositions and Chopin didn't have the physical health to compose a big piece.

[themeandvariation]

Seems to me there is quite a lot of masculinity (stormy) stuff in Chopin.. There is the volcano And the orchid..  Perhaps some are looking for more obviously macho sounding stuff..  Luckily, there's always the marching band and 'the village people' …