Thumb-Over attempt

[koitako]

Hello! i've been trying out the thumb-over (Chang's Book) method for fast scales but i don't know if i got it right.


Can somebody please help me? is this the "right" way to do it?

Thank you!

[falala]

Thumb over what?

[koitako]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=7073.0

This thread talks about the thumb over method.

[louispodesta]

Hello! i've been trying out the thumb-over (Chang's Book) method for fast scales but i don't know if i got it right.

Can somebody please help me? is this the "right" way to do it?

Have you ever heard of Dorothy Taubman or Edna Golandsky?  A few of us have, and neither of these teachers uses the thumb under technique.  Chang ripped it off from them!

Please read my post "Performance Forum," as it relates to speed practice regarding the metronome.  And, yes, you are somewhat doing it right, except it is very slow!

[koitako]

I'm gonna check that sir, thank you!

[louispodesta]

I'm gonna check that sir, thank you!

Since are the very fist person to use the word "sir,"(your parents raised you well)
in a reply to one of my posts, I proffer the following detailed response in regards speed practice:
 
["If speed is your goal then you have to understand the basic tactile nature of playing the piano, and then adapt accordingly, in my opinion, and also that of the late Earl Wild.

So, this is what I recommend, and I have the small hand and spindly fingers to back it up:

This concept is an effectuation of combining direct keyboard tactile touch at an extremely slow tempo, and then morphing it into a Rachmaninoff-like speed tempo.  My major teacher, the late Robert Weaver, taught the first part of this to all of his students.

First, you sit very quietly at the keyboard, and that includes your breathing and whole body relaxation.

Next, you very slowly (one note at a time) play a five finger scale in each hand, with super soft staccato.  This is done by striking the key from its surface (just the way Egon Petri taught Earl Wild!).

(It is important to rest for a few seconds with hands in lap between each playing because you are building positive muscle memory from the ground up.)

Then, you get it where you can do this with both hands, depending on your own individual level of dexterity.  So, when you can do this with no forced effort, you can move on to the speed practice.

From this point on, you view every technical section as a scale cluster, broken chord section, or an arpeggiated section.  This is played up or down, hands separately or hands together.

You then play a particular section of the piece in question as fast as you can (up or down, in clusters), utilizing your pre-disposed soft, surface quick staccato tactile sense that you gained from the first section of this discourse.  Accordingly, you alternate between full arm weight and no arm weight, resting hands in lap between each alternation (remember, you are training your brain).

I use the term Rachmaninoff-like technique because this is what he taught his students."]

In terms of the thumb, just very, very slightly raise your arm to laterally get to the next set of notes (very slightly).  Do it first, whole hand, either to four or five, and then do it to the first note thumb of the next section (alternate back and forth).

And, at top speed, I do not recommend using the supple wrist, just a relaxed wrist.  I hope this helps.
 

[falala]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=7073.0

This thread talks about the thumb over method.

Thanks. I'll just spend the next 15 years reading those posts, and get back to you.

From what I can see it doesn't answer my question though: What exactly does the thumb go "over". In your video, it doesn't go over anything.

The scale in your video is extremely lumpy and uneven, and sounds like a bunch of separate groups rather than a scale.

Turning the thumb under is basically just about getting it moving toward its destination as soon as possible, so it doesn't have to move a long way quickly at the last minute. I think that as the scale speeds up, the extent to which it literally passes "under" the hand reduces, not least because the hand is moving rapidly as well. Not sure I'd say there's a separate technique involved though.

[louispodesta]

In that this is a "Students" Corner Forum, I think a little latitude should be given to the term "thumb over."  The point was, and is: is there a more efficient way of getting up and down without the traditional thumb under?  The answer (Taubman, Gloandsky, Thomas Mark) is a resounding yes.

Just today, with my huge physical problems (enormous psoriatic arthritis flare-up), I had to re-invent my scale passages in the Mozart A Major Piano Concerto, and then the Liszt  Gnomenreigen.

I used the same technique that I described to the OP, and it took me about 15 minutes, to get back up to speed.  And on top of it, I actually improved on a once difficult section in the Liszt, that I have had problems with for many years.

So, whether it is thumb over, or thumb under, the goal is to "get from here to there" at the desired tempo. 

In my opinion, thumb under is problematic, at best.

[falala]

In that this is a "Students" Corner Forum, I think a little latitude should be given to the term "thumb over."

Fair enough, but I thought that was the term that certain pedagogues like Taubman etc. use for it too. In which case the objection remains that it doesn't make sense. 

The point was, and is: is there a more efficient way of getting up and down without the traditional thumb under?  The answer (Taubman, Gloandsky, Thomas Mark) is a resounding yes.

OK.

Can you link to an example of somebody demonstrating it, in a way that doesn't sound lumpy and uneven? I've tended to find before with Golandsky's videos that she talks a great game, and sometimes even demonstrates various things broken up and slowed down, but never actually shows how they translate into fast, fluent, real playing. I'd like to see and hear this.

As it stands I'm not convinced that what's being called "thumb over" is not just what happens to normal scale playing technique when it gets above a certain speed.

So, whether it is thumb over, or thumb under, the goal is to "get from here to there" at the desired tempo. 

Indeed.

[louispodesta]

Okay, here is Golandsky's video on it, starting the major discussion at about 6:00:

My method, which started out with one of her former student's, Thomas Mark, uses the axis of the sternovanicular joint where the collar bone joins the sternum as the point of articulation.  This allows for a more normal movement of the entire upper arm and body.

The Tabuman dictum of rotate the forearm, and then the arm will follow, is like telling someone to stick out their foot and then walk.  It makes no sense, in terms of the kinesiology of the human upper body.

If you want more, then you can mail me a check, I can hire my audio tech, and then I will make you a video.  My tech does not work for free.

You should be most aware that video of piano instruction is in its embryonic stage at best.

[j_menz]

My method,

Oh, good grief. 

[louispodesta]

Oh, good grief. 

I should of said:  the method that I use.  Feel better?

[j_menz]

I should of said:  the method that I use.  Feel better?

"Should of" aside, much.

[adodd81802]

.

[falala]

Okay, here is Golandsky's video on it, starting the major discussion at about 6:00:

Yeah. Pretty sure I've seen that one before and it's a good example of what I mean. Lots of talk. Lots of slow analysis. No sense of how it actually translates into real world, real speed playing. A little bit of Mozart K595 at the end with some scales at a conservative speed that could be played with any technique, and the camera on the wrong side so you can't see what her thumb technique is doing anyway.

If you want more, then you can mail me a check, I can hire my audio tech, and then I will make you a video.  My tech does not work for free.

And you need a "tech" to operate a video recorder? OK LOL.

You should be most aware that video of piano instruction is in its embryonic stage at best.

Well there seems to be a lot of it about, like those Golandsky videos. If people are going to do it and make claims about technique (particularly ones like Taubmann and Golandsky's that are counter-intuitive and different from established knowledge on the subject), then it's reasonable to point out that the videos don't support the claims.

[falala]

There seems to be a lot of complex answers on here.

Firstly - the term "Thumb Over" is misleading in the fact your thumb actually doesn't go over anything. I suppose the name was conceived as it's a "Not Under" technique as such.

So firstly the main inefficiency with the "thumb under" technique. Assuming here you know scales, and the general finger numbers 123/1234/123/12345 and the C scale. Best bet is to try this as you read rather than visualize whether practicing on a table or the real thing.

When playing a scale with Thumb Under, lets say right hand ascending, when it comes to the thumb under process your wrist naturally curves left to tuck that thumb under quickly as possible. This puts your remaining fingers in a pretty terrible position for moving up the keyboard quickly.

Why? They're just as capable of moving while they're curved to the left as they are in any other position.

[louispodesta]

The man who taught me part of this technique, who I went to school with at North Texas (still very much alive), taught me this in order to play the super-fast scale runs in measures #4-5, and #11-12 of the "Poco Piu Mosso" section of the Prokofiev 1st piano Concerto.   And, for the record, very few people play this piece better than this individual.

He kept saying:  rip it, rip it.  Play it in clusters, and then rip it.

So, at high speeds, lateral movement can be attained.  And, as previously alluded to, you have to untrain your hand from naturally bringing the thumb under.  You just move the hand sideways, and lift just enough (middle finger or otherwise) in order to effectuate the movement.

I also hope this brings some clarity.  With all of my current physical ailments, I just used this again today on the Liszt "Gnomenreigen," and it works every time.
 

[adodd81802]

.

[louispodesta]

Okay, someone out there try playing in clusters, from side to side.  If you think you can get there faster with an extra movement of the thumb, which takes time (no matter how small) then please play that way, if it works for you.

I play this method first, using it from in three, four, or five clusters, landing "softly" on the last finger.  Then, I repeat with it going on to the thumb.

Once again, I  suggest that you alternate back and forth between arm weight and no arm weight, with the very important "hands in lap' rest in between.

[timothy42b]

I watched your video.

You're on the right track, but you're missing some nuances that may make it smoother.

If you're going to work on the left hand, work on it descending first.  That's where thumb over really applies.  It was confusing to see you start ascending.

It's okay to have your motion a bit jerky but your sound very even.  That's counterintuitive but necessary. 

Basically there are four things you must do.

You move your hand laterally after playing 123.  That's the hardest part to get quick.  At speed it looks like a glissando but it's really not, it's a sideways hop, then another. 

Second, you rotate your forearm to drop the thumb.  The combination of rotation and hop means neither has to move very much.  Using your left hand example, 123 requires a counterclockwise rotation, then a slight clockwise rotation lands your thumb cleanly on the next note for 1234. 

Third, you have to lead with your elbow while moving out.  You skipped this part.  The hand has to lag a bit.

Fourth, and you didn't do this at all, you need to move in for the thumb notes and out for the longer fingers.  By in I mean forward towards the fallboard.  By out I mean back towards the bench. 

These four parts sum to reduce the movement needed by any one of them.  You may have to exaggerate them while learning them.

[louispodesta]

This is classic Taubman/Golandsky, as illustrated in the Golandsky video I posted earlier.

I won't tell you specifically which of my coaches told me the following, but the big knock on their technique is speed.  You just cant' get there with all of this over-emphasis on forearm rotation.

[timothy42b]

"Should of" aside, much.

+1

[falala]

Because your fingers sit there as your thumbs come under?

Hence the original thumb under method. when you tuck your thumb under your 3rd and 4th fingers when moving up a scale you will notice your fingers sit then inefficiently and then move after the thumb has hit the note?

That's the thing, I don't think they actually do. The whole hand is constantly moving.

I think some people have a false, strawman idea of what thumb-under playing actually is here. We're taught to pass the thumb under the hand when practising scales slowly for evenness. This is basically about getting the thumb to its destination as early as possible, but it doesn't mean the hand has to sit there stationary when playing faster. If the hand whizzes off naturally in the direction of the scale, the amount that the thumb passes under it will be minimal, without there being any particular change to the technique.

[timothy42b]

Thumb under isn't really a straw man, though; it's just that at speed people no longer do it per the book, and start getting closer to thumb over.

https://www.amazon.com/The-Leschetizky-Method-Correct-Playing/dp/0486295966

Check out the leschetizky book, it's available as a free download, I just gave you the amazon because I can never spell it.  This book explains in detail how to do it, complete with preparatory exercises

[falala]

Timothy - I didn't mean that thumb under playing is a strawman. I meant the image of it that is presented by proponents of so-called "thumb over" is. They go on about the thumb being restricted and the fingers not being able to move quickly, as if all scale playing descending from this method is some kind of lumpen exercise with a static stiff hand. They ignore the fact that the initial exercises and analysis of technique are only a starting point to get the thumb moving between positions as swiftly as possible, and that once everything else is moving swiftly too the degree of "under" may be quite minimal. That doesn't mean that a whole new technique is required based on the glaringly false idea that the thumb is somehow going "over" something.

Thanks for the link. I have a book of Leschetitsky exercises somewhere but it doesn't have all the text and photos.

[koitako]

Thank you all, it's starting to get cleaner! i will upload a video as soon as i can to show you.


Thank you thank you thank you! 

[roncesvalles]

Thumb-over was advocated by Busoni.  Due to the minimization of position changes of the arm, it offers the fastest possible scalework (outside of glissandi).  I've practiced them a fair amount.    I am by no means perfect with them, but I've learned that the fingers should all be significantly strengthened and coordinated to pull off the scales well. 

In your video the scales are uneven, and it sounds to me like mini-crescendi with each position of the hand.  This leads me to suspect that your 543 fingers are a little weaker, which helps to give the uneven tone.   There are a couple of remedies for this.  There are plenty of exercises out there to strengthen individual fingers by holding all of the other fingers down and repeating notes with the finger you want to strengthen.   In addition, I often practice 5 finger portions of a scale staccato by playing, for example, CDEFG 3-5 times (going up and down, using fingers 1-5 or 5-1), then DEFGA 3-5 times, then EFGAB, etc., going all the way up the scale and back, as fast as I can (trying it in different keys, especially those with a mixture of white and black keys, is more challenging but possibly more rewarding).  This gets your hand used to playing with all five fingers and can help you out a little with strength. 

[timothy42b]

This leads me to suspect that your 543 fingers are a little weaker, which helps to give the uneven tone.   There are a couple of remedies for this.  There are plenty of exercises out there to strengthen individual fingers by holding all of the other fingers down and repeating notes with the finger you want to strengthen. 

Or read Abby Whiteside, who advocated exactly the opposite.  There are many who think your approach dangerous.