Schubert, a copycat?

[SteinwayTony]

We all know Liszt is guilty of it, but I was just listening to Beethoven's 32 Variations on a Theme in C minor (WoO 80) and I realized that the chord structure is remarkably similar to the opening of Schubert's Sonata in C minor (D.758).  Anyone ever notice this?

[chopin2256]

I never heard that example but it's probably true.

Beethoven's music can also be considered similar to Mozart's structure (probably
when Beethoven was younger).  I have been tricked many times into thinking Mozart is playing, but its really Beethoven.  My favorite composer Chopin was even worse, he mimicked Bach exactly, regarding his preludes (each prelude in a different key).  He even wrote a fugue, which probably was his worst composition.

[Hmoll]

We all know Liszt is guilty of it, but I was just listening to Beethoven's 32 Variations on a Theme in C minor (WoO 80) and I realized that the chord structure is remarkably similar to the opening of Schubert's Sonata in C minor (D.758).  Anyone ever notice this?

Happens all the time....in all the arts.

[Op. 1 No. 2]

  My favorite composer Chopin was even worse, he mimicked Bach exactly, regarding his preludes (each prelude in a different key). 

Tons of composers did this.

[OiledUpFatMan]

I never heard that example but it's probably true.

Beethoven's music can also be considered similar to Mozart's structure (probably
when Beethoven was younger).  I have been tricked many times into thinking Mozart is playing, but its really Beethoven.  My favorite composer Chopin was even worse, he mimicked Bach exactly, regarding his preludes (each prelude in a different key).  He even wrote a fugue, which probably was his worst composition.

So because he arranged his preludes in the manner that Bach did with the WTC and because he wrote a fugue, Chopin was a Bach mimic? That connection doesn't make any sense at all.

[thracozaag]

We all know Liszt is guilty of it, but I was just listening to Beethoven's 32 Variations on a Theme in C minor (WoO 80) and I realized that the chord structure is remarkably similar to the opening of Schubert's Sonata in C minor (D.758).  Anyone ever notice this?

  Brendel refutes this in his book.  More obvious are the instances when Schubert "borrows" from himself (A major posth., last movement, Death and the maiden, etc.)

koji (STSD)

[SteinwayTony]

  Brendel refutes this in his book.  More obvious are the instances when Schubert "borrows" from himself (A major posth., last movement, Death and the maiden, etc.)

koji (STSD)

Then there's his dark song "Der Wanderer," and we all know what became of that.  My teacher says the "center" of the Wanderer Fantasy is in fact the Adagio, which bears closest relations to the song.

[chopin2256]

So because he arranged his preludes in the manner that Bach did with the WTC and because he wrote a fugue, Chopin was a Bach mimic? That connection doesn't make any sense at all.

Well, Chopin mimicked what Bach did regarding the format or idea of the preludes, not his music.  I was just trying to emphasize that even great composers copy from other composers at one point or another, even if its not copying the music directly.  And I consider Chopin to be the best composer for piano.  (just my opinion, calm down everyone  )

If listened to closely enough, you can hear the Bach influence in some of Chopin's greatest works, such as near the end of Ballade #4, where the left hand comes in and sounds baroque style, the ending of Scherzo in C# minor which again sounds baroque style, etc.  Also, alot of Chopin's pieces will start in Minor and end in Major, vice versa.  Its very interesting, because Chopin to me, has the most unique and best sounding piano compositions, that sound nothing like Bach if you do not pay attention.  It is hard to imagine Bach was the one who influenced Chopin this much, yet Chopin's music shows subtle hints of being influenced by Bach.

[zemos]

We all know Liszt is guilty of it, but I was just listening to Beethoven's 32 Variations on a Theme in C minor (WoO 80) and I realized that the chord structure is remarkably similar to the opening of Schubert's Sonata in C minor (D.758).  Anyone ever notice this?

I'm guessing you mean D. 958.   Yeah it's much alike, but this structure of chords is common, I have seen it in czerny and mendelssohn too...
anyhow, doesn't matter what anyone'll say, this sonata is one of the greatest sonatas ever written!

[SteinwayTony]

Yes, thanks, I meant 958, and I adore that sonata.

I loathe Paul Lewis' interpretation of it....have a few notes with your pedaling, Mr. Lewis?

[thracozaag]

Then there's his dark song "Der Wanderer," and we all know what became of that.  My teacher says the "center" of the Wanderer Fantasy is in fact the Adagio, which bears closest relations to the song.

  True; however rhythmically the entire Wanderer follows the same pattern as the Beethoven 7th slow movement.

koji (STSD)

[musicsdarkangel]

Yes, similarities in music happen all of the time.

Even my favorite composer - Rachmaninoff.

Listen to Chopin's ocean etude, and than Rachmaninoff's Etude Opus 23 no 7

These are both in the same key, and I played the beginning to each for my dad on a road trip, and he could not tell them apart until I pointed out the differences.

Those are 2 of my favorite works and they both have many similarities, including the introductions, the continuous 16th notes, and the consistant minor to major key changes.

[maxy]

Schubert a copycat?

Yes, of course.

You could not imagine Schubert without Beethoven.  Schubert lived in the shadow of Beethoven and seemed to enjoy it that way...

It does not make  Schubert a lesser composer.

Brahms was a copycat, Chopin also, Grieg also and the list goes on. 

[Stolzing]

What's the quotation?

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal."

[cziffra]

That's very true. 
I suspect that there seems to be a strange idea prevalent that composers write purely from some divine sort of "inspiration" they pluck out of the ether.  This is quite simply ridiculous.  Sure, inspiration helps, but you wouldn't be able to be a very good composer if you relied SOLELY on your "inspiration," never looking at anyone else's works.  To me, the ACTUAL process of composition is creating something new and unique out of elements already established.  Chopin's Eude op 25:9 is a totally unique, interesting piece, even if it shares a remarkably similar theme to beethoven's sonata no 25 movement 3.  I don't think this is sacreligious because it definitely has chopin's stamp on it by the time he's done with it.  Not to mention the infamous Funeral March sonata (how many movies have used Beethoven's funeral march sonata, which is extremely similar to chopin's?)

Stealing material and building upon it to the point that it's unrecognisable is really a pivotal part to composition.