Sell me on Jazz

[josh93248]

Now, I've nothing against Jazz, I respect that it probably is the deepest most complex large body of music outside of classical but I've never really fallen in love with it.

However I saw the movie Whiplash not so long ago and really, really enjoyed the music so I feel it's about time I took another look at Jazz.

So please, make your suggestions, I would prefer piano music but that's hardly a rule. Also keep in mind that I am a hardcore classical pianist, something similar but from the Jazz style will probably appeal to me most. I also probably won't like Jazz that's too "poppy" or too weird. Something reasonably tonal but somewhat daring and interesting would probably suit me best.

But really, just give me your absolute favourites haha

[themeandvariation]

Hi Josh.
Let's kick it off with a vintage tune… The great Art Tatum plays…

[stevensk]

Hiromi Uehara 

[indianajo]

Don't watch movies much.  I do listen to some jazz on the radio occasionally.  
If you want to play jazz you
1. Listen to some standards, say off a Lawrence Welk or Montovani LP, then
2. Play them yourself entirely differently.  
If, like most classical students, you want it all worked out for you, buy 47 Modern and Jazz Piano Pieces arr. Brimhall, Peterson, and Progris
Publisher Hansen House Miami Beach FL 33139 1-800-327-8200 # 783/8/D94-5
I like to play Count on Him (Basie imitation) Satin Doll and Take the A Train (Strayhorn Ellington originals).  
There is an ad in there for the Bill Lee Jazz Fake book, 1012 Jumbo Jazz.  Before ripping off the record by ear, performers bought fake books.  The best ones came out of the trunks of cars at the union hall parking lot.  
The best overall education on jazz is the PBS series of the same name from the 2000's.  I have it in video tape, not digital.  I find I respect artists that occurred before Coleman Hawkins and Dizzie Gillespe.  After that the melody tends to get too chopped up for me to relate to.  Two modern exceptions, Miles Davis Kind of Blue album and some Chick Corea LP's.  
If you want to hear some modern stuff, WFPK-FM has an internet feed of jazz cuts on Sundays. Mostly I don't like what they play much. 

[josh93248]

I enjoyed the Tatum quite a bit Theme, it left me with a smile on my face I've listened to Tatum before but perhaps now was a better time and your link was to, I suspect, a better recording.

Hiromi is damn good, very impressive, I just wish she would stop Goulding into her mic though. I haven't listened to all that video but whenever I'm in the mood for Jazz I think she will get a look in

Now I'm not that interested in playing Jazz, my whole methodology revolves around lots of preparation so the freewheeling Jazz style, whilst somewhat appealing to me to listen to, doesn't suit my personal playing approach, I'll probably at least play some Gershwin at some point though. I'll look at some of the names you suggest later and tell you what I think indiana, but right now I'm kind of into Hiromi haha.

[dcstudio]

you won't fall in love with it until you try to learn to play it...

hardcore classical?  

take a listen to the one....the only...Oscar Peterson LIVE--the only way it was meant to be


think this might be what you've been waiting for...

I do so hope you enjoy it...

feeling your fingers "freewheeling" around the keyboard---knowing that what you're are playing is yours ---letting it fly...

don't knock it till you try it...  

[mjames]

I'm honestly quite surprised that no one has mentioned Kapustin, Charles Mingus, or Gunther Schuller...considering it's classical piano forum.

I honestly don't quite understand people who say "I don't like this GENRE" when they've barely even scratched the surface let alone study the sh*t tone of music in it? Very stupid. Thank god you decided to open your mind a little bit more.

[outin]

Thelonius Monk!

[thalbergmad]

You need some stride.

[josh93248]

I liked your video dc Oscar certainly is entertaining and enjoyable, thanks. But as for playing Jazz... I hae to admit I'm slowly growing more tempted but I just am not in the right place for it now, I have developed an approach I really like that I think could make me a good pianist but it really only works with classical music. I'm also in the middle of wrapping up one batch of repertoire and starting another so I don't really have much room for it. Funnily enough though I regard classical music as freely as many regard Jazz (I think) I play anything however I like and don't feel the need to do things the approved way, but that is another subject.

I looked at your Kapustin mjames and enjoyed it as well, it had a nice structure to it, which I sometimes find lacking in Jazz. I never had a closed mind with jazz, just never got around to it is all

I looked at Thelonius Monk's "Don't Blame Me" outin and thought it was very interesting, I thought a lot of the dissonance was delicious. I might look at some more sometime.

The, uh, "Stride" was fun Thal, for a second though I thought this was another Leonard Cohen cover haha. What is the meaning of "Stride" though exactly?

I have one sort of complaint though, a lot of these guys have a similar technique, a similar approach to left hand and right hand, Hiromi seemed to have a bit more going on. Anybody out there whose technique is completely different?

[themeandvariation]

@Josh.
Here's is something a bit different.. Cecil Taylor

And just because a chaser might be needed, an exquisite  take on a standard:
Miles Davis:

[josh93248]

Woah, Cecil sure was something, his technique sure is pretty unique. He went pretty crazy at the end there though, I'm not sure what that was about but I'm tempted to pull a similar stunt someday at a classical gig and see what the response is haha.

I'm enjoying the Miles right now, would smooth be the right adjective?

[stevensk]

I think Hiromi Uehara is one of the most intresting jazzpianists today.
Here is one of the more old school ones: Marian Petrescu:

[dcstudio]

 I have developed an approach I really like that I think could make me a good pianist but it really only works with classical music.

 Funnily enough though I regard classical music as freely as many regard Jazz (I think) I play anything however I like and don't feel the need to do things the approved way, but that is another subject.



I looked at Thelonius

really?  what about it only works with classical?    just curious...


what about your classical is as free as jazz?

again just curious...    hardcore classical pianists tend to have many preconceived notions on what it means to play jazz.


Thelonius is hardcore jazz

whoever suggested Lawrence Welk?   though I do love the guy--and I still watch the TV show on PBS... that' NOT jazz....  great music ...and many of those tunes are standards...but not jazz.

there was one gal on that show though who was usually a dancer--but every now and then they would put her out there on an upright piano and she would play stride while facing the crowd and smiling--that was the closest thing I ever saw to jazz on the Lawrence Welk show...



it's really scary to play this stuff at first because the "file" in your brain for "jazz" is void---and long time classical players just can't stand that feeling--it makes them angry-- ---but after a while... it starts to all make sense

[themeandvariation]

@dc….
Ah, Welk… Well he sure had a long run… To me it is almost surreal, (and kinda funny… thought it does have a light heart) like  the Boston Pops joins the Brady Bunch variety show… 

[chopinlover01]

A bit irrelevant, but if you enjoy video games, grab a Fallout game- great fun, and they have radio stations filled with basically only jazz (some of the only music that survived a nuclear war).

[josh93248]

Well DC, my current approach involves 4 stages

1. Analysis and fingering: I study the score and technique in detail and COMPLETELY finger every note. I've found this has many advantages and it's gotten to the point that I can barely stand to play anything without having prepared and studied the piece and come up with my total fingering. You may say this is limited and you may well be right but I feel this approach gets me closer to the level of good music rather than merely adequate, it also appeals to my rigorous nature.

2. Independent mastery: I play carefully hands separately (sometimes with some hands together, it depends on the piece) trying to get all the rhythms right and try to get a nice tone, I also try and solve all the individual difficulties of each hand taken independently.

3. Co-ordination: I work on the issues of co-ordination of the hands, building up fluency and learning and developing the basic musicality of the piece.

4. Advanced Musicality: I try and build up and deepen my musical approach to the piece, experiment with different options and find my own interpretation, which can involve a lot of departures from the traditional ways a piece is played and even the score itself.

Needless to say some elements of all stages appear in each other stage but the things I actually focus and work on most follow this structure.

I'm not saying this couldn't be applied to Jazz, nor that I couldn't broaden my method but I do really like this approach and I'm sure you can see it's fairly suited to classical.

As for my Music being as free as Jazz... Perhaps that's an overstatement, I really just mean I don't believe the rules matter, my music making is based on my own guiding principles which I apply as I see fit. If you want an idea of what I mean, perhaps take a look at my Bach and let me know what you think. It's a bit radical but I think it works if you can listen with an open mind (Which I'm sure you have dc)

@ Stevensk

I liked Marian but I think Hiromi is better haha

@ chopinlover

I actually have played Fallout 3 and really enjoyed the game and the music. I'm not really into games now though, I tried to play New Vegas but was just past it.

[dcstudio]

@dc….
Ah, Welk… Well he sure had a long run… To me it is almost surreal, (and kinda funny… thought it does have a light heart) like  the Boston Pops joins the Brady Bunch variety show… 

oh no doubt....  I love to watch it with my 14 yr old daughter--the shock on her face at the hairdoos the clothes...  omg...the singing...lol.    the bubbles on the disco ball...and the (IDK how else to say it)--schmaltz...   

the whole thing is so -- 20th century!   it gives me goosebumps ...  sometimes I will remember watching that episode with my parents the first time it aired--when I was just a little pipsqueak

[dcstudio]

at OP

your approach works perfectly for jazz... it's actually pretty spot on the way we learn to do it.  

As a teacher I have tried many methods...as a player, too.    It's ALL music--there are only 12 tones--only 12 major triads... once you understand MUSIC you understand everything;  

Well DC, my current approach involves 4 stages

1. Analysis and fingering: I study the score and technique in detail and COMPLETELY finger every note. I've found this has many advantages and it's gotten to the point that I can barely stand to play anything without having prepared and studied the piece and come up with my total fingering. You may say this is limited and you may well be right butI feel this approach gets me closer to the level of good music rather than merely adequate, it also appeals to my rigorous nature.

.

so if you already felt this way--that your approach only worked for classical and you weren't going to change...  then why ask us to sell you on it?   it was never possible for anyone to "sell" you anything if had already made up your mind that you couldn't do it

we analyze and prepare fingerings too--but instead of having to look at the score each time and work it out...  we have practiced all the commonly used progressions, scales, riffs, basslines, extensions and etc.. we know them when we hear them or see them in the score--we can name them-and we can already play it before it's put in front of us


you said complete fingering and total fingering---at some time did you only partially finger things?   did you have a teacher at one time?  

btw--tatum, peterson, and monk couldn't be less similar in their approach or technique...seriously

[pencilart3]

[josh93248]

@ DC

When I said "Sell me on Jazz" I was really talking about listening to the music, not so much playing it but since you're interested in talking about that, let's.

So, I don't say I'll never do Jazz, there's already one piece I play that has some Jazzy elements which I plan to record. I also plan to play quite a bit of Gershwin over time too. I have been known to improvise but I prefer to work on things that lead to specific and usable outcomes.

Perhaps also, I can admit I may well have come to Jazz with too many preconceptions. It is still necessary to say though that as much as I have enjoyed seeing all this good Jazz music I have a hard time seeing myself actually playing it, this has to do with the subtleties of my personality and the kind of music I want to make. I also am quite committed to reaching a high level classically and promoting that kind of music. Finally, there are so many things I wish to do musically, not just in the field of piano (If I were to list my full ambitions you would see why I need a pretty devoted lifetime to reach even a quarter of them) but also in singing (which I take seriously too) and composing, a more recent addition but one in which I am very excited for.

On composing, part of my interest in Jazz and why I've asked you all about it isn't so much to play pure Jazz myself but to lay the groundwork for an understanding of the sounds and styles so that I can incorporate the Jazz style into some of my future compositions. At the moment I'm in a classical phase though, very Haydnesque or Mozartean stuff. It's the style I want to learn first and I'm loving it.

At one point I did only partly finger things. The moment I decided to start totally fingering pieces is the moment that redefined my playing.

As for a teacher, for a very long time I haven't really had one but now I have an informal one. The accompanist at the opera chorus I sing in has taken an interest in me and shown me some things at rehearsal. It's been great fun and we enjoy working together. She's Russian by the way, trained at St Petersburg.

[dcstudio]

I apologize...  I misunderstood..   that makes perfect sense


I was once a very devoted classical musician I had years and years of formal training...even went into college as a music major-- I also adhered to a strict developmental method... 

that was close to 25 years ago now...lol. 


I was able to make the switch -- or rather adapt those concepts and synthesize them with what I already knew.  I have just had far more work over the years as a jazz pianist... classical has been pretty much accompanying gigs...  but my ability to play classical was so much stronger after I learned to improvise--and I understood jazz theory.   

so when somebody starts making generalizations about oh "this is only for classical"  --  it makes me a little reactive...lol 


you have come up with this on your own---and you are sticking to it no matter what...   because it feels right?   ok... respectable..     

[josh93248]

Hey, it's fair enough to want to broaden someone's horizons DC

Interesting that you seem to recommend Jazz theory. My theory/composition teacher, who is very broadly knowledgeable, has brought it up a bit in our few lessons. We'll see how things develop.

Fair enough, I have my triggers too when people say certain things haha.

And seeing as you are a little curious and perhaps even a little dubious (I hope I'm not reading you wrong) perhaps I'll explain my reasons for total fingering, but maybe in another thread another time.

[diomedes]

I found to Keith Jarrett to be beyond belief, for me, particularly the early work of his, Koln Concert deserves it's popularity and the Sun bear concerts are unusually good.

[outin]

When I said "Sell me on Jazz" I was really talking about listening to the music, not so much playing...

I get that, since while I do love some jazz, I would never play it on the piano even if I could. I sing it and it's my plan to one day get myself a saxophone. But I have never had any interest to use the piano for anything other than classical. That's where it is at it's best. I know many people feel differently

[indianajo]

I get that, since while I do love some jazz, I would never play it on the piano even if I could. I sing it and it's my plan to one day get myself a saxophone. But I have never had any interest to use the piano for anything other than classical. That's where it is at it's best. I know many people feel differently

Duke Ellington and "Count" Basie, had long successful careers playing Jazz at the piano.  I like their work.  These later pianists- Pah! Coleman Hawkins disease of the hands.
My suggestion about playing Jazz involved playing standards ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY than Lawrence Welk.  The melodies of standards are all a Jazz player needs, not the style.  Especially not the style of a twenties tea room dance band .  As far as making new melodies, that is more pop music, not jazz.   

[dcstudio]

I would never play it on the piano even if I could.

 I sing it

 to use the piano for anything other than classical.

That's where it is at it's best. I know many people feel differently

never? hmmmm sounds like there's more to this Outin  

these self-imposed rules...

you enjoy singing it but not playing it?  hmmmm

who is your favorite jazz singer? why?

 did you ever want/try to learn it?  

how did you find out about jazz?

 did you at one time "feel differently" about this?   why the change?

did someone tell you at some time that it's not right to use the piano for....hmmm like "goofing off" or maybe "making noise" something of that nature?   were you playing your own "composition" at the time?  how old were you?



you know me...  I'm gonna ask this stuff...  



it's research..

[outin]

never? hmmmm sounds like there's more to this Outin  

these self-imposed rules...

you enjoy singing it but not playing it?  hmmmm


somebody around you didn't like jazz piano?   did you ever try to learn it?  

is there someone in particular who " felt differently"?  

did someone tell you at some time that it's not right to use the piano for....hmmm like "goofing off" or maybe "making noise" something of that nature?   where you playing at the time?



you know me...  I'm gonna ask this stuff...  



it's research..

No, it's nothing so complicated...I just have a very distinct taste in musical matters (and others as well I must admit). While I know the piano is a percussive instrument, but I don't really enjoy that side of the piano much. While I greatly enjoy listening to such pianists as Monk, I have no desire to play jazz with the piano. I want to use an instrument with a real singing ability. I associate jazz with my singing and classical with the piano and I have no desire to change that. I don't like classical singing such as opera either  

So these are not rules, just reflections of my personal taste...

[dcstudio]

While I greatly enjoy listening to such pianists as Monk,

  I have no desire to change  

So these are not rules, just reflections of my personal taste...

fair enough...  


why Thelonius? a rule-breaker if there ever was one.

[outin]

how did you find out about jazz?

who is your favorite jazz singer? why?

I've heard jazz ever since I was too young to remember...

If I have to name one favorite female singer it's Maysa Leak...for the male it's too hard to chooce right now

I realize I listen to very little jazz these days, I am so consumed by classical piano music. I tend to be like that...

[outin]

why Thelonius? a rule-breaker if there ever was one.

Because his music is great and he had really great ensembles as well...Besides I like breaking the rules

[dcstudio]

@Outin
why are you consumed right now with classical piano?

were you inspired by something?

it's very interesting to me---a person's motivation for playing..  that's why I ask..

[outin]

@Outin
why are you consumed right now with classical piano?

were you inspired by something?

it's very interesting to me---a person's motivation for playing..  that's why I ask..

About 5 years ago I suddenly just started exploring classical piano music again after decades of almost no interest and it got to me. I just cannot get enough. I have no explanation, but I never knew how to do things moderately...after I started playing it became even more consuming

[dcstudio]

About 5 years ago I suddenly just started exploring classical piano music again after decades of almost no interest and it got to me. I just cannot get enough. I have no explanation, but I never knew how to do things moderately...after I started playing it became even more consuming

that's a very common response... especially among the older folks

they can't explain it and yet  they become obsessed... I think it's a mid-life crisis thing...

they are generally incredibly happy about it though...it's not like the unhealthy --buy a sportscar, leave your job--move to Tasmania type thing...   it's great to see that kind of enthusiasm, too...I have seen some returning players go quite a bit further than they thought possible

keep going then...sounds like you are doing fine.

 

[outin]

that's a very common response... especially among the older folks

they can't explain it and yet  they become obsessed... I think it's a mid-life crisis thing...

they are generally incredibly happy about it though...it's not like the unhealthy --buy a sportscar, leave your job--move to Tasmania type thing...   it's great to see that kind of enthusiasm, too...I have seen some returning players go quite a bit further than they thought possible

keep going then...sounds like you are doing fine.

 

Oh, I didn't have a crisis...I was very happy with how things were...NOW I am stressed all the time

But I've always had something to get obsessed about...it's just my personality. I think it's a coincidence that it was piano this time (I just happened to get an old digital from someone).

[dcstudio]

 
If you want to play jazz you
1. Listen to some standards, say off a Lawrence Welk or Montovani LP, then
2. Play them yourself entirely differently.  

well yes...that sounds simple enough doesn't it... 

now are you going give them any suggestion on how to do that?

"entirely differently"--is pretty vague... IMHO

and you still said Lawrence Welk and learn Jazz...    now just be a man and take the abuse....
you committed a jazz sin..  there is no defense.

forgive me, kinda being a smarta$$  no harm intended.


@Outin...just so happened?    ....or was it fate?   lol...

[outin]

@Outin...just so happened?    ....or was it fate?   lol...

I don't believe in fate... Everything happens...just because it happens 

Anyway, I do want to get that saxophone one day and start playing some jazz too. But I think I'd better postpone those plans... there aren't enough hours in the day to be obsessed over too many things at the same time...

[dcstudio]

doesn't change the fact that it's a pretty cool coincidence.   

[dcstudio]

The melodies of standards are all a Jazz player needs, not the style.  Especially not the style of a twenties tea room dance band .  

As far as making new melodies, that is more pop music, not jazz.  

really?     interesting ...  

and HEY.  I love Lawrence Welk...  

could we hear you play some jazz--got any vids?

really not being a smarta$$ here...  just wondering

If I am then feel free to click on my YT account and you can tear me up later if you want...it's right down there...

[outin]

doesn't change the fact that it's a pretty cool coincidence.   

It could have been cooler...I could have inherited a grand  

[dcstudio]

yeah...a nice concert Steinway from the European factory.

[outin]

yeah...a nice concert Steinway from the European factory.

I'm more of a Bosie gal...

[dcstudio]

I'm more of a Bosie gal...

still...you wouldn't turn down a steinway if it showed up at your door--but as long as we're dreamin  a boisiederfer it is

[outin]

still...you wouldn't turn down a steinway if it showed up at your door--but as long as we're dreamin  a boisiederfer it is

I guess I wouldn't turn away any piano in need of a home...

Plus I also want to have a  fortepiano and a clavichord...in top condition of course... 

[marvellis]

The best jazz pianist I can think of right now is Dave Brubeck. If you want to start listening to Jazz piano stuff, I think he would be the best one to start with. Dave Brubeck (if I remember right) was heavily influenced by Classical music and you can hear it in some of his recordings.

[dcstudio]

The best jazz pianist I can think of right now is Dave Brubeck. If you want to start listening to Jazz piano stuff, I think he would be the best one to start with. Dave Brubeck (if I remember right) was heavily influenced by Classical music and you can hear it in some of his recordings.

yes Brubeck wrote a tune called Blue Rondo Alla Turck--

[josh93248]

Gad, it's all too much haha. I'll look through some of these later but I just wanted to say thankyou to everyone, you could say you've pretty much sold me 

[pianoplunker]

Now, I've nothing against Jazz, I respect that it probably is the deepest most complex large body of music outside of classical but I've never really fallen in love with it.

However I saw the movie Whiplash not so long ago and really, really enjoyed the music so I feel it's about time I took another look at Jazz.

So please, make your suggestions, I would prefer piano music but that's hardly a rule. Also keep in mind that I am a hardcore classical pianist, something similar but from the Jazz style will probably appeal to me most. I also probably won't like Jazz that's too "poppy" or too weird. Something reasonably tonal but somewhat daring and interesting would probably suit me best.

But really, just give me your absolute favourites haha

The artist that suits you best is.........Yourself.   Take a piece of music you like but have not practiced yet. With only the chord progression and melody, fill in the rest with your style. Of course you will want to "borrow"  ideas from other artists that you like as well. Play by ear or use all the theory you know. 

[kevin69]

My suggestions (not restricted to piano) would be

Charles Mingus: the Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Brad Mehldau: Live in Tokyo
Keith Jarrett: La Scala
The Bad Plus: Prog
Thelonius Monk: Thelonius Alone in San Fransisco
John Coltrane: A Love Supreme

and if you don't like any of those, you probably don't like jazz

[Petter]

10 random highlights:

Louis Armstrong: Potato Head Blues

Billie Holiday and Lester Young: Sailboat in the Moonlight

Charlie Parker: Koko

Lennie Tristano: Line Up

Thelonious Monk & John Coltrane: Monks Mood

Ornette Coleman: Lonely Woman

Duke Ellington: Fleurette Africaine

Roland Kirk : Theme for the Eulipions

Bill Evans: Reflections in D

Vijay Iyer: Human Nature