Why do my wrists and hands feel sore?

[chopin4lyfe]

Hello everbody!

I've been practicing a bit of Hanon's "The Virtuoso Pianist in 60 Exercises". But after practicing it on 108 bpm a couple of times, I already need a break. My wrists, hands and fingers (especially the left hand) feel exhausted and sore afterwards.

Does anyone else have this problem, and does anyone know how to prevent this or stop it from feeling sore.

Thanks

[mjames]

Question:

Why are you practicing hanon? What do you attend to achieve with it? How long do you practice Hanon?

Answer: Probably has to do with your body/arm/wrist/hand positioning..in other words..bad technique/habits. We can't really say much with just text, so post of a video of you playing these exercises and I'm sure you'll get more accurate diagnostics.

TL;DR: get good.

[visitor]

it's your body telling you to stop messing Hanon.

[jacobsterling]

it's your body telling you to stop messing Hanon.

Haha, totally agree on that one. This is not to be rude or something, but Hanon doesn't teach you anything. You cannot improve 'technique' by even practicing like a Thousand exercises. Let alone, becoming a 'Virtuoso Pianist'. But it doesn't matter. A lot of people fall into the trap of the folly of technical exercises and sooner or later, someone will tell them that they won't learn a thing of it.

But that's just my opinion. What would all you senior guys assume from a little newbie with only two posts.

Best wishes,
Jacob

[chopin4lyfe]

First I'd like to thank for the suggestion about position. I'll check up on that.

Secondly: I have seen a lot of critique of Hanon's exercises. However. I have yet to hear why exactly it is, that Hanon is so bad. Also I preactice Hanon for the reason it states in the book "practicing stretching the 4th and 5th fingers of the left hand while ascending, the 4th and 5th fingers of the right hand while descending". Of course I also practice scales and arpeggios, as well as playing normal pieces. My intention with Hanon is to strengthen my fingers. But I'm actually curious to hear why exactly it is, that Hanon isn't a good pratice.

[jacobsterling]

First I'd like to thank for the suggestion about position. I'll check up on that.

Secondly: I have seen a lot of critique of Hanon's exercises. However. I have yet to hear why exactly it is, that Hanon is so bad. Also I preactice Hanon for the reason it states in the book "practicing stretching the 4th and 5th fingers of the left hand while ascending, the 4th and 5th fingers of the right hand while descending". Of course I also practice scales and arpeggios, as well as playing normal pieces. My intention with Hanon is to strengthen my fingers. But I'm actually curious to hear why exactly it is, that Hanon isn't a good pratice.

The reason why the Hanon exercises are no good, and I think this is something you can't work yourself around, is that it states to "train the pianist in speed, precision, agility, and strength of all of the fingers and flexibility in the wrists" in general. So, overall it states to 'improve technique'. However, consider this:

There is no such thing as abstract technique. Technique simply means "the ability to play what is required". Let's assume this is possible. Then, it would mean the following. If the Hanon exercises would improve technique, which means (see above), that would mean that if a certain passage of a piece would require me to play a run of twelve 32nd notes, playing trough the Hanon exercises would prepare, or at least improve my ability to play just that. Well, I can tell you it will not.

A piece always consists of easier bars/passages, or it does not, hard bars/passages and impossible bars/passages. There is only one way to make that those hard/impossible bars/passages will become easy, and that is by practicing exactly those bars/passages. And how will you practice them? By aplying all sorts of practice tricks, required to tackle those bars/passages.

Now, you can do two things of which I recommend you go on with the first: You could drop Hanon now and forever and go on acquiring technique from pieces, which is, in my opinion, much more effective. You could also ignore all this information and go on practicing Hanon.

The choice is yours.

Best wishes,
Jacob

[adodd81802]

I think it's probably worth adding onto this a little bit here because saying "stop playing Hanon" isn't helpful to the actual problem. (Unless you're following Hanon by the book)

I think the main problem with these kinds of studies is that, when come with instructions, is much open to interpretation. It also does not help build a better "technique" so to speak, it merely strengthens one that is either good or either bad. Now in your case it looks like it's bad.

I have read through the studies and see one (of many) phrases that causes major concern "Lift the fingers high and with precision". Now I read this as, simply ensure your fingers come off the keys rather than slur when picking up speed to create a clear sound.

I certainly wouldn't raise my fingers as high as possible whilst putting the others down because A - you will peak very quickly, it simply does not work and B - it's unhealthy you are working 2 levels of muscles here at the same time and your body doesn't like it. pulling the fingers up whilst pushing the fingers down - does that even make sense?

Next I see you respond about "stretching" have you ever "pulled a muscle" if you push muscles further than what they want to go - they break. sometimes a little break, sometimes you're not playing the piano for 6 months. If you ever have to stretch any fingers, go back and review your fingering (assuming you can comfortably reach an octave) I can just about reach a 10th and I would never stretch my 3/4 or 4/5 more than a 3rd apart that is C-E, D-F, E-G and so on.

I think you can work any fingering to prevent stretches, ignoring chords(while sometimes unorthodox, if you have smaller fingers, make the fingering pattern work for you, not for what's written)
Next you have to understand that if your goal is to "strengthen fingers" what makes fingers? they don't have muscles, the statement itself is flawed. Understanding the full motion that makes a finger (or thumb) depress a key and releases makes you realise that you can never make your fingers equal by themselves you can practice all day long but you'll never trill your 4/5 like your 1/3,2/3 etc.

Now i've said all that (and I can discuss further if required) It's impossible to tell what's wrong with how you play without seeing how you play. Either post a video, or watch your own video, try and see how your left hand differs from your right, whether it's a wrist bend, whether it's curled fingers whether it's a high arm, pain in the wrist doesn't necessarily mean the wrist is at problem, it could mean something else is at problem putting pressure on the wrist so really look at your whole body, both sides should be equal. Also really locate the problem, is it actually the wrist, or is it the lower palm, or maybe the bottom of your forearm, are there any actions of playing that cause particular soreness, identify and see how you would play in your right hand.

I will certainly try my best to help you fix this problem if I can see how you play. Lastly, going back to my original statement, why I don't think saying "quit" Hanon is useful. Because personally, putting the silly instructions aside, I have come to like the studies. I don't get aching from them and they have improved some dexterity. I think the best benefit from them, however would be playing in different keys (Rather than just C Major) because there are so many other keys, that if the exercises are played well and in different keys, I think they can lay some good foundation in practicing pieces, in the same way that we practice scales. When you learn the correct motions that are required with different studies, you can understand how to apply them when practising pieces.

Hope that helps. I want to on the whole say I agree with everything everybody else has said, because the studies rely on a lot of (for the want of a better word) ignorance here in that you can't go in a small cave for 6 months, learn these studies to 108 and come out the next Horowitz, it just doesn't work like that.

[dcstudio]

it sounds like you are holding on to more tension then is necessary to play these.  Students often try to "work out" their hands like they would work out at the gym.   They think they have to "feel the burn" when they are playing piano exercises and that is NEVER the case.

you are not working out like a "bodybuilder" it's more about endurance and managing the energy in your hands.  whatever exercises you choose to play you have to build up the speed.  So often students just try to play etudes or exercises as fast as they possibly can--believing that this is good for their chops.  It's not.

I like hanon... and in spite of all the wisdom presented here by other members... after 47 years of playing and 20+ teaching... I am entitled to like Hanon if I so please.   It worked for me and I have seen it work wonder for students over the years... so my opinion on this is based on my experience and not something I read somewhere or something a teacher told me. 

[bronnestam]

I had the best piano lessons ever in my life this past weekend, so here comes my reply based on some of the inspiration I got there.

To me, Hanon is neither good nor bad. It is a tool to use if you like. There are other tools for those who like that. You can invent your own exercises too. It is not the exercises as such that make you a good/bad pianist, it is how you use the tool.
This is my opinion.

My teacher this weekend, who has the best piano technique I have seen anyone have, ever, emphasized to me the importance of addressing ONE issue at a time when you practice - not ten. So, before you start an exercise, which could be a Hanon exercise or maybe one tricky bar in your latest piano study project, or whatever, you should decide what is your purpose with this session. Is it to learn a trill? Or to move your wrist more smoothly? Or just to learn how to relax - which should be your No. 1 priority, by the way. If you feel that you are tensioning up when you practice, the best thing to do should be to focus on relaxing and to use your muscles right.

If you feel pain/stress/fatigue you must be clear on WHY you feel that, what it is that is not working for you. And WHAT you are going to do to fix it! I dare say, the most common reason people tension up is that they try to play too fast too early. You get impatient, you want the satisfaction of hearing a waterfall of music produced by your hands - you want to sound like a virtuoso! So you push it to the limits all the time, thinking this will give you "faster" or even "stronger" fingers ...

Besides, you might feel that these exercises are boring so ... better quicken up the process, that is, play faster so that you can go on to the more fun parts quicker - that is how we often feel.

I'll tell you, this is a very bad approach, you've better skip those exercises if you don't have enough patience to work with them in the right way. Truth is, that you have to be very patient. Forget about that virtuoso thing. If your task is to try out the duration and touch of ONE single key, then do so. If your task is to check you hand position while you play C-E-G-E-C up and down, then do so, slowly. You cannot be too careful, take your time, don't play at all if you have to. Or just touch the keys without making any sound. There are millions of exercises to do, and they are probably good, all of them ... as long as you do them mindfully and evaluate the results.
Just don't be afraid of making it simple, or to play very slowly. 

[outin]

... you've better skip those exercises if you don't have enough patience to work with them in the right way.

This is VERY good advice that one so rarely hears. Mostly we are told to do this and that based on someone elses successes and if you cannot do it properly then there's something wrong with you and you should just force yourself. But it's perfectly normal for a lot of people to only be able to do patiently things that they are really interested in and forcing will not work. In those cases it's definitely better to concentrate on those things instead of drilling something that others have found useful just because you are told to. This of course does not mean that you should forget reason when it comes to repertoire...if you only can feel interested in something WAY out of your league, then you must make yourself do some research to find something more reasonable to start with.