Can you recommend a piece for intensive left hand 4th finger?

[yadeehoo]

I realize that my left hand 4th finger doesn't have so much work to do these days. But it's waking up, it is !!

So, a piece, an etude, whatever, something fast paced, maybe arpeggios, anything that will put my 4th left finger to use and improve it's stamina.

[dogperson]

Berens exercises for the left hand

https://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Pflege_der_linken_Hand,_Op.89_(Berens,_Hermann)

[yadeehoo]

Thank you Dog, I'll go through that tomorrow, any personal experience of a piece that put the use of the 4th finger to use especially?

I'm not sure I'm gonna go through the whole 46 drills..

[dogperson]

Thank you Dog, I'll go through that tomorrow, any personal experience of piece that put the use of the 4th finger to use especially?

Look at the exercises and use the ones that meet your '4th finger' need.

[yadeehoo]

Ok, thank you

[louispodesta]

I realize that my left hand 4th finger doesn't have so much work to do these days. But it's waking up, it is !!

So, a piece, an etude, whatever, something fast paced, maybe arpeggios, anything that will put my 4th left finger to use and improve it's stamina.

Okay, in that I play these, the following three pieces come to mind:

1)  The Rach 2nd Piano Concerto because if you cannot command your left hand in its entirety, you cannot play this piece.

2)  The Brahms Chaconne For the Left Hand, which should be played the way Brahms played it by rolling most of the chords.  Trust me, you will feel it in your fourth finger, if you do not play it properly.

34)  The Chopin A Flat Major Ballade (measures # 183-208).  Once again, if not played properly, it will wreck your fourth finger.

Finally, I very much recommend the Taubman approach to playing these pieces, in terms of "over and under" forearm rotation, as well as "in and out" shaping.

[yadeehoo]

The Chopin A flat ballade seems cool to practice 4th finger, thank you !!

How do you know all that, btw ?

[dogperson]

Okay, in that I play these, the following three pieces come to mind:

1)  The Rach 2nd Piano Concerto because if you cannot command your left hand in its entirety, you cannot play this piece.

2)  The Brahms Chaconne For the Left Hand, which should be played the way Brahms played it by rolling most of the chords.  Trust me, you will feel it in your fourth finger, if you do not play it properly.

34)  The Chopin A Flat Major Ballade (measures # 183-208).  Once again, if not played properly, it will wreck your fourth finger.

Finally, I very much recommend the Taubman approach to playing these pieces, in terms of "over and under" forearm rotation, as well as "in and out" shaping.

Louis, I am surprised you would recommend these to a pianist in his second year-- who is completely self-taught and recognizes his 4th finger does need strengthening....   how will he know, for example, to play the Chopin Ballade, so he doesn't wreck his finger?

I thought (?) actual exercises to strengthen the use of that finger would be appropriate.  Your reasoning would be appreciated for my own use.  

[yadeehoo]

Today something happened... I heard a crack. It was my 4th finger. After then, I felt nothing, but not numb, actually, it was like all the tension that kept my left hand flowing has just gone. Total feeling of freedom and flexibility. I was trying to play Chopin Op10 No12 as fast as possible. And this 4th finger was apparently hindering the fluidity of the whole hand, that's when I realized, what do I even do with this guy?

So yeah, any piece, whatever the level, is highly appreciated. I might be a 2nd year, but I know the power of slow practice (I was a drummer before)

Thx everybody for you comments

[sumpianodude]

Today something happened... I heard a crack. It was my 4th finger. After then, I felt nothing, but not numb, actually, it was like all the tension that kept my left hand flowing has just gone. Total feeling of freedom and flexibility.

*screaming in jealousy*

[outin]

I was trying to play Chopin Op10 No12 as fast as possible.

I don't think it makes much difference what we recommend, you'll wreck your 4th finger anyway...and probably a few others as well.

[hardy_practice]

from Brahms 51 exercises.

and RH with a 'strengthening the 4th accent'

[adodd81802]

Finally, I very much recommend the Taubman approach to playing these pieces, in terms of "over and under" forearm rotation, as well as "in and out" shaping.

I share your enthusiasm for the Taubman theories and have found them very informative and useful to improve my playing.

It is a shame however in the UK it does not seem so widespread with regards to obtaining a Taubman verified teacher and I live on the outskirts of London!

[hardy_practice]

I share your enthusiasm for the Taubman theories and have found them very informative and useful to improve my playing.

It is a shame however in the UK it does not seem so widespread with regards to obtaining a Taubman verified teacher and I live on the outskirts of London!

Go for a Matthay teacher.  They're the originals.   He lived in Hazlemere.

[visitor]

no thumbs. ample opportunity to work no 4 of each hand.  short comings in that finger will almost immediately be highlighted w uneven tone etc

this would actually make a decent warm up and working etude, but again not recommended if goal is to performance standard at your current level, but it's not outside of 'attempting' given the pyrotechnics of this and main goal of this is accomplished at the called for tempo

[dcstudio]

How do you know all that, btw ?

lol...oh man are you ever opening a bucket of snakes there.  Careful.

[yadeehoo]

no thumbs. ample opportunity to work no 4 of each hand.  short comings in that finger will almost immediately be highlighted w uneven tone etc

this would actually make a decent warm up and working etude, but again not recommended if goal is to performance standard at your current level, but it's not outside of 'attempting' given the pyrotechnics of this and main goal of this is accomplished at the called for tempo

Ok, its nice, but not what I'm thinking about. I meant intensive work of the 4th finger in particular, so, the focus should be on this finger to train it's stamina.

I've actually designed a little drill that suits my needs but it's not very musical.

To give you an idea : 4th finger plays 2nd minor, then octave. I alternate this 2 times then move up chromatically. It's pretty intensive, maybe too much, if I just play a 2nd with my 4th finger, it's a little easier. Still it's nowhere near fun to play musically. But something in this idea, you see..?

If you play this over whole octave, you will feel what part is working, it's that part I want to work (if you don't feel it, play it faster, over 2 or 3 octaves. You might have better stamina than me)

[louispodesta]

Louis, I am surprised you would recommend these to a pianist in his second year-- who is completely self-taught and recognizes his 4th finger does need strengthening....   how will he know, for example, to play the Chopin Ballade, so he doesn't wreck his finger?

I thought (?) actual exercises to strengthen the use of that finger would be appropriate.  Your reasoning would be appreciated for my own use.  

Very well said, and I appreciate you pointing out that this student is in his second year.  However, I offer the following:

Fingers do not have muscles, so any attempt to strengthen what does not exist, is (as I experienced for decades) at best foolhardly.  At worst, it can destroy your hand.

So, any attempt to short-circuit the normal development process is not something I would ever recommend.  However, I have noticed, without exception, that pianists (who at a young age) played either cello, or later on double bass or electric bass, had exceptional strength in their left hand at the piano.

[yadeehoo]

Very well said, and I appreciate you pointing out that this student is in his second year.  However, I offer the following:

Fingers do not have muscles, so any attempt to strengthen what does not exist, is (as I experienced for decades) at best foolhardly.  At worst, it can destroy your hand.

So, any attempt to short-circuit the normal development process is not something I would ever recommend.  However, I have noticed, without exception, that pianists (who at a young age) played either cello, or later on double bass or electric bass, had exceptional strength in their left hand at the piano.

Duh, ok, no muscles in the fingers, that explains a lot why my fingers are still skinny after doing rock climbing, guitar and bass for so many years. So, they are in the forearm?

I realized my left hand had a better time at the piano when I started. That's why I enjoyed Chopin Op10 No12, and still do.

I guess stamina is different for everybody. But plz, guys, don't debate on this on my behalf. Have you tried the simple drill I mentioned so you can guide me properly?

[hardy_practice]

I wouldn't let the 'no muscles in the fingers' trope bother you, it's a red herring .  There are little muscles that help with the first joint (the interosseous you need especially strong for Bach).  There's loads of important muscles in the palm and that's not to mention all the tendons and ligaments everywhere - which all need a work out.  Those who stare at anatomy diagrams with little idea of the dynamics involved have little idea.  

[louispodesta]

"yadehoo"  "Duh, ok, no muscles in the fingers, that explains a lot why my fingers are still skinny after doing rock climbing, guitar and bass for so many years. So, they are in the forearm?"

Yes, according to Dorothy Taubman, Edna Golandsky, and every hand surgeon that has ever existed.

And, as far as "hardypractice" is concerned, the interossei muscles (located at the top of the hand) are used to twist the hand from side to side, and some think may aid in trill technique.

As any body builder can tell you, if there is not a parallel development of the ligaments and tendons associated with a particular muscle or set o0f muscles, then there will eventually be an injury.  That is why anabolic steroids do not work - the muscles develop at a faster rate than the corresponding ligaments and tendons.

As a second year student, you are treading on very dangerous water by focusing on this for now.  At the age of 64, I just got to where I can freely play any repertoire with my small hand with its thin and spindly fingers.

Give it time and patience, and it will get you there.  Force it, and you may just ruin your hand.

And, you certainly will not be the first one to make this huge mistake.

[yadeehoo]

As any body builder can tell you, if there is not a parallel development of the ligaments and tendons associated with a particular muscle or set o0f muscles, then there will eventually be an injury.  That is why anabolic steroids do not work - the muscles develop at a faster rate than the corresponding ligaments and tendons.

As a second year student, you are treading on very dangerous water by focusing on this for now.  At the age of 64, I just got to where I can freely play any repertoire with my small hand with its thin and spindly fingers.

Give it time and patience, and it will get you there.  Force it, and you may just ruin your hand.

And, you certainly will not be the first one to make this huge mistake.

Well, ok Louis. don't worry, i'm not so concerned about taking steroids now, as a fresh piano student (maybe in the future?   )

"I'm treading on very dangerous waters" - Duh, that sounds more scary when you put it this way. Is it ok if I can just swim or should I still be scared of sharks?

Yeah patience might be an important factor indeed.

Is this just me or all I'm hearing in every message is pretty much : Be careful !
Cause I've explained in many different ways that I'm taking it slowly, relaxed, and with no pressure from teacher or family cause I don't intend to be a pianist, it's just a hobby. i hope you guys can remember that for your future comments...

Thank you nonetheless for taking the time to share your views, it's always welcomed

[hardy_practice]

And, as far as "hardypractice" is concerned, the interossei muscles (located at the top of the hand) are used to twist the hand from side to side, and some think may aid in trill technique.

The interosseous muscles of the hand are palmar (in the palm) and dorsal (on top).  Both interrosseous and also the lumbricals aid in playing (In addition (like dorsal interossei) they [the palmar interossei] flex the finger at the metacarpo-phalangeal joint and extend the finger at the interphalangeal joint and thus assist the lumbricals.):


The lumbricals:


Some writers swear that's all they use, but there's been no study to say how much the intrinsic vs extrinsic muscles of the hand contribute to any one's particular technique (I would say it varies from player to player).

[hardy_practice]

So, in essence, when a poster writes 'his 4th finger does need strengthening' does it matter that he actually means the 'ligaments, tendons and muscle of the lumbricals, interosseous, flexors and extensors of his 4th finger need strengthening?  Do we not understand in the first place what he meant? To think otherwise is pure pedantics and certainly will not prevent any injuries.

[yadeehoo]

That's pretty interesting Hardy, I wonder if they measured that in pianist hands.

To remind you of which muscle (or whatever it's called) I'm targeting :

Put the 4 on the 2nd minor (C#), they play a C octave with 5 & 1, alternate that 2 times, then repeat the pattern while moving up chromatically as fast as you can, you will feel which part I'm talking about.

Feels like it's working where there is no muscle, I'm not sure what's going on

[hardy_practice]

That's pretty interesting Hardy, I wonder if they measured that in pianist hands.

No, science hasn't been there yet.

To remind you of which muscle (or whatever it's called) I'm targeting :

Put the 4 on the 2nd minor (C#), they play a C octave with 5 & 1, alternate that 2 times, then repeat the pattern while moving up chromatically as fast as you can, you will feel which part I'm talking about.

Feels like it's working where there is no muscle, I'm not sure what's going on

First thing that comes to mind - make sure your 4th finger 'strikes' the black notes bang in the middle, not on the edge.   Accuracy is everything.   I'll play with your exercise later and get back.

[visitor]

Good for you that you ate motivated to improve some specific aspect of your playing.
some food for thought

What most see as a lack of strength or stamina especially w finger 4 is usually a lack of independence or independence and a minor strength deficit,  Not a lot of strength per say needed,  the hand and arm mechanism aids with transfering power to and through finger 4.

Theres little application in trying to isolate 4 w made up drills vs a composition that makes copious use of it in compositions of music, since one is more likely to encounter and have trouble w activation and agility of finger 4 in a piece of music they are working on, that is , unless you are working on music that has you repeatedly striking finger 4 in isolation (single note and octave leaps being the exception , especially black notes, those cases it is preferable to try and execute  the strike w 4 or 1 and 4)
  

[yadeehoo]

Yeah that might not necessarily be a matter of strength or stamina, maybe more of independence.

Still practicing this drill I made, it burns pretty fast (somewhere in the hand)

I've done some re-fingering on the Moonlight Sonata Mvt 3 to get more use on my left hand 4th finger, as well as the right one, as for the sake of giving them something to do.

I'm curious how you guys would approach that. Do you design your fingerings as to give an even play to every finger or do you go with what seems easy/natural at first? Or do you go with the logical distance and split it even?

[adodd81802]

Yadeehoo,

Have you considered just doing the chromatic scale with your 3/4/5 rather than your 1/2/3.

Should get a strong work out in both hands.

Essentially it's 5/4/3 in the left hand with the 5th being for the double white notes.

Biologically the 3/4 are linked as you are probably aware, so to really increase stamina I don't think you'll benefit by isolating the finger by itself but that 3/4 motion is probably key in my opinion as evidenced by Chopin's op 10-2 Etude.

I wouldn't consider going back to pieces you can already play and changing the fingers for your own practice, the better and more efficient practice would be to find new pieces that incorporate the challenges you are trying to face.

With regards to fingering, I think most pianists would go for what seems easiest, nobody would opt to tally the amount of trills a piece has and then even them out over all fingers it's not logical in the slightest. - Who wants to 4/5 trill anyway

Lastly I think with the 4th in particular you have to aim to bring the finger down with the support of other muscles rather than exerting from the finger along. rotation of the forearm will assist with this. it's impossible to get the 4th at the same strength as say the thumb or index fingers using just the finger alone.

[yadeehoo]

Yadeehoo,

Have you considered just doing the chromatic scale with your 3/4/5 rather than your 1/2/3.

Should get a strong work out in both hands.

Essentially it's 5/4/3 in the left hand with the 5th being for the double white notes.

Biologically the 3/4 are linked as you are probably aware, so to really increase stamina I don't think you'll benefit by isolating the finger by itself but that 3/4 motion is probably key in my opinion as evidenced by Chopin's op 10-2 Etude.

I wouldn't consider going back to pieces you can already play and changing the fingers for your own practice, the better and more efficient practice would be to find new pieces that incorporate the challenges you are trying to face.

With regards to fingering, I think most pianists would go for what seems easiest, nobody would opt to tally the amount of trills a piece has and then even them out over all fingers it's not logical in the slightest. - Who wants to 4/5 trill anyway

Lastly I think with the 4th in particular you have to aim to bring the finger down with the support of other muscles rather than exerting from the finger along. rotation of the forearm will assist with this. it's impossible to get the 4th at the same strength as say the thumb or index fingers using just the finger alone.

Chopin's Op10 No2 for left hand? That's exactly what came to my mind too ! I practice that as well.

Who want to do 4/5 trills and mordants ? ME !! I do it whenever possible, but I'm still weak at 3/4 trills (for example the trill at the end of the final in Moonlight Sonata mvt3, I do it with 4/5) and there is other 4/5 & 3/4 trills/mordants somewhere else in this piece as in the Polonaise Heroic. Last 5 bars of Moonlight sonata's C# arpeggio is also good for both hands 4th finger I found.

I believe every finger should get some work. I'm working on the re-fingerings in some pieces today, in that regard.

[yadeehoo]

We were talking about bad habits before. To me the worst of them all is avoiding/postponing difficulty.

Sure, you can cheat to perform a piece, but to what extent ? One day or another difficulty will have to be faced, so, why not right away? Taking this habit, and postponing the performance instead ?

[adodd81802]

You're a hard one to crack Yadeehoo. But you will learn the hard way. OK let's have a go at this.

You need to be more open minded.

Avoiding / postponing difficulty is not what was suggested here and I definitely think "cheating" is not the right word.

Let's take an example - based off your comment every finger should be worked, so if we look at the ending of Nocturne op 9/2 by Chopin. In the last section there is a repeat of grace notes to be played in the right hand, and at some speed can actually be quite tricky.. Whilst doing this the left is  doing... oh wait NOTHING.

What would be wrong with the left hand helping out here with a couple notes? The score is an indication of the notes to play, and how they are to sound. If you can create the required sound and do so easier for yourself, who's to judge? Why set rules to make something more difficult if it can be achieved just the same an easier way (please don't think this is the correct attitude to every "difficult" piece you pick up)

Furthermore with the huge diversity of hand sizes and anatomy, a passage or finger indication that may be considered difficult for some, could be a breeze for others, and no amount of practice could change that, how far should we go to scrutinize the way in which somebody can produce a beautiful piece of music, just because they used easier fingers or movements. The music notation aims for a "one size fits all" indication when this is definitely not the case. The only things in my opinion that should be followed 100% on score is the notes themselves and the dynamics. The fingers and hands are a variable that should always be open to interpretation in a way that most suits the pianist.

The assessment of a piece is where the judgement call is made on whether it's a suitable piece to be learning. That is down to both the hands and the skill level of the pianist. Every piece comes with it's own difficulty and challenges that you will face, the aim is to make the process of overcoming those challenges as easy as possible without jeopardizing the sound of the music.

There is absolutely no need to make an easier piece more difficult for the sake of proving to yourself that you can play it that way. The more difficult pieces will do that themselves, Your aim at 2 years into playing the piano (self taught probably count's for a lot less) to be playing pieces that are within your current skill level with little challenges that slowly prepare you to be able to do the difficult trills, the fast octaves etc without pointlessly drilling away at them early on with nothing to show for it.

You mention a lot of impressive repertoire, but I believe you are actually yet to post any completed piece in the audition forum? The proof is in the pudding good sir, show that all the hype has actually produced some results and i'll apologize completely.

I am by no means professional, but I have put on a couple of pieces that at least warrant proof of me having some competency at the piano. You have some very outlandish opinions that while first sounded confused,  are now just starting to sound ignorant. 
 

[visitor]

by far the best things i did to work on diagnosing and addressing technical issues related to finger independence, agility, tension, etc. are (assumes this is practiced properly, ie with guidance direction from qualified teacher, etc), note below assumes all variants of major, minor, parallel and contrary motion, 3, 6, 10ths, and for chords, to include fully dim 7th and dominants as well. the McFarren manual will guide you on outlining them in some keys, then you use what you learn to the keys not described.
1. scales
2. arpegios
3. broken chords.
4. repeat `1,2,3 as needed then apply changes to music in context until solved.

[outin]

A couple of things that came to mind when reading this:

First, there's a difference in avoiding work required to become more proficient and learning to do things as smart as possible. Using unnecessary labor to play something is not smart and piano playing is hard enough on our playing mechanism without it. All great pianists aim to play things as easy as possible without compromising the sound quality. They might sometimes want to make it look harder to the audience to show off a bit, but that's a different matter...

To me it's irrelevant whether I talk about finger strength or finger independence. What matters is my ability so produce solid sound with every finger when needed, the "weak" 4th as well. And I have found that the best way for me to achieve this is to practice using the finger deliberately and sometimes even a bit exaggerated (accenting the sound), instead of any specific finger exercise. I do it occasionally in scales, sometimes with finger exercises but mostly just in passages of actual pieces. When I concentrate mentally on producing proper sound, my ability to control the muscle actions slowly get better.

My teacher recently said that my 4th and 5th fingers have gained a lot of strength this year. It comes from the increased ability to activate the right muscles effectively and more specificly along the whole playing mechanism (hand, wrist and arm). I can work less but gain more than before. I did not achieve this by drilling but by concentrating mentally on the connection of the movement and sound. This may not be the way to go for everyone but it seems to be the best way for me to develope my technique.

[visitor]

A couple of things that came to mind when reading this:

First, there's a difference in avoiding work required to become more proficient and learning to do things as smart as possible. Using unnecessary labor to play something is not smart and piano playing is hard enough on our playing mechanism without it. All great pianists aim to play things as easy as possible without compromising the sound quality. They might sometimes want to make it look harder to the audience to show off a bit, but that's a different matter...

To me it's irrelevant whether I talk about finger strength or finger independence. What matters is my ability so produce solid sound with every finger when needed, the "weak" 4th as well. And I have found that the best way for me to achieve this is to practice using the finger deliberately and sometimes even a bit exaggerated (accenting the sound), instead of any specific finger exercise. I do it occasionally in scales, sometimes with finger exercises but mostly just in passages of actual pieces. When I concentrate mentally on producing proper sound, my ability to control the muscle actions slowly get better.

My teacher recently said that my 4th and 5th fingers have gained a lot of strength this year. It comes from the increased ability to activate the right muscles effectively and more specificly along the whole playing mechanism (hand, wrist and arm). I can work less but gain more than before. I did not achieve this by drilling but by concentrating mentally on the connection of the movement and sound. This may not be the way to go for everyone but it seems to be the best way for me to develope my technique.

yep. +1

[adodd81802]

A couple of things that came to mind when reading this:

First, there's a difference in avoiding work required to become more proficient and learning to do things as smart as possible. Using unnecessary labor to play something is not smart and piano playing is hard enough on our playing mechanism without it. All great pianists aim to play things as easy as possible without compromising the sound quality. They might sometimes want to make it look harder to the audience to show off a bit, but that's a different matter...

To me it's irrelevant whether I talk about finger strength or finger independence. What matters is my ability so produce solid sound with every finger when needed, the "weak" 4th as well. And I have found that the best way for me to achieve this is to practice using the finger deliberately and sometimes even a bit exaggerated (accenting the sound), instead of any specific finger exercise. I do it occasionally in scales, sometimes with finger exercises but mostly just in passages of actual pieces. When I concentrate mentally on producing proper sound, my ability to control the muscle actions slowly get better.

My teacher recently said that my 4th and 5th fingers have gained a lot of strength this year. It comes from the increased ability to activate the right muscles effectively and more specificly along the whole playing mechanism (hand, wrist and arm). I can work less but gain more than before. I did not achieve this by drilling but by concentrating mentally on the connection of the movement and sound. This may not be the way to go for everyone but it seems to be the best way for me to develope my technique.

+2

[yadeehoo]

Thx Adodd, Visitor and Outin for your comments. It's immensely interesting. I'd need to ponder that for a while before I write anything new. Meanwhile tomorrow I might just post my version of Liebestraum so you can have more to talk about while I'm thinking a bit deeper into your last comments (it's a lot of new stuff to comprehend and a lot of work !!)

Anyway, thx a zillion everybody !

[dogperson]

Berens exercises for the left hand

https://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Pflege_der_linken_Hand,_Op.89_(Berens,_Hermann)

The question is not posed to the OP, because the suggestion did not meet his needs, but to everyone else that provided feedback.  Any other opinions are certainly appreciated.  I use Berens for the left hand as exercises.  Is there any disadvantage to this approach?  Many thanks in advance.

[visitor]

The question is not posed to the OP, because the suggestion did not meet his needs, but to everyone else that provided feedback.  Any other opinions are certainly appreciated.  I use Berens for the left hand as exercises.  Is there any disadvantage to this approach?  Many thanks in advance.

can't speak to the Berens, haven't looked/done them, but I  know folks have said these are really really good
https://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/Dohnanyi-Erno-Dohnanyi-Ernst-von-Essential-Finger-Exercises-Piano-1869/621382
https://imslp.org/wiki/Essential_Finger_Exercises_(Dohn%C3%A1nyi,_Ern%C5%91)

[hardy_practice]

I had a go at the exercise - didn't do much for me but if you designed it for a particular passage I'm sure it'll work.

[yadeehoo]

I had a go at the exercise - didn't do much for me but if you designed it for a particular passage I'm sure it'll work.

Yeah actually, it didn't do much for me either after a while, I figured scales in arpeggios is the way to go

[dogperson]

Yeah actually, it didn't do much for me either after a while, I figured scales in arpeggios is the way to go

These were sent to you on the 15th, and by the 19th you had rejected these in preference to your method.  Four days or less is not a useful test of efficacy.. so I would appreciate the opinions of those that have used them longer.  You won't see or disprove benefit from anything in a couple of days-- and that includes scale work.

[yadeehoo]

These were sent to you on the 15th, and by the 19th you had rejected these in preference to your method.  Four days or less is not a useful test of efficacy.. so I would appreciate the opinions of those that have used them longer.  You won't see or disprove benefit from anything in a couple of days-- and that includes scale work.

I think Hardy was talking about the drill I designed, didn't he?

I told you it's hard to go through the 50-ish drills of the link you posted, would you point an exercise in particular?

[hardy_practice]

I'm gonna get kicked for this but you do know Godowsky arranged op 10 no 1 for left hand alone?  Try it, not so hard.

[yadeehoo]

I'm gonna get kicked for this but you do know Godowsky arranged op 10 no 1 for left hand alone?  Try it, not so hard.

I was thinking about it, yeah Oops, I shouldn't say that here maybe...

I just think it didn't sound that good

[visitor]

I'm gonna get kicked for this but you do know Godowsky arranged op 10 no 1 for left hand alone?  Try it, not so hard.

along the same line are the super cool and more often neglected Chavez studies:

Chávez, Carlos, Frédéric Chopin,  Left hand inversions of five Chopin etudes: for piano. 1968.

[yadeehoo]

Scriabin also did cool stuff for left hand

[hardy_practice]

I downloaded the Berens.  Plenty of material for the 4th finger in the studies - they look fun - not so much in the exercises.  

[yadeehoo]

along the same line are the super cool and more often neglected Chavez studies:

Chávez, Carlos, Frédéric Chopin,  Left hand inversions of five Chopin etudes: for piano. 1968.

Ok Chavez right now is too much for me just to think about it. But remind me in a thousand years 

[yadeehoo]

I downloaded the Berens.  Plenty of material for the 4th finger in the studies - they look fun - not so much in the exercises.  

Oh, there are studies? I like studies