Chopin Etudes for Noobies Op10 No1 + Video

[yadeehoo]

Read the comments in the video description in Youtube

As a newbie, I use this piece as a warm up for my right hand, it has brought me a lot of flexibility, even if some positions feel strange at first. Practicing slow and relax should avoid any injuries

[hardy_practice]

Not bad, and you're doing yourself no harm. 

[yadeehoo]

Not bad, and you're doing yourself no harm. 

I'm not? Wow, it's good to know ! 

[adodd81802]

I did see the heated debate in the other forum, I never took the chance to comment.

I will say that I didn't agree with all your comments (though it escalated so quickly I didn't get to properly read everything). But what I will say, with a few of these etudes and other studies I do agree that many can practice a couple of bars slowly, not only without doing any harm but also improving strength in fingers and abilities (as they were designed to do) I think you can be smart with your practicing, incorporating particular musical riffs and finger patterns into your studies to greatly improve performance in the long run.

It maybe true for an intermediate that to fully take on a piece such as a Chopin Etude before they're ready you could end up spending months on the piece with little progress. However for many of these studies and others you will find they are similar from start to end and so to take a small section and study only that, not only won't take so much of your time but will also provide the same benefits that the whole study was designed to provide.

I regularly practice the first 4 bars of op 10 no 2 to build up the 3-4 (and 5) finger strength. I started at around 70 tempo a few weeks back and now play at 90 - the rest of the Etude is similar so when I eventually get to a good tempo i'll look the rest. Doesn't take more 30 minutes to run through the bars a number of times and I have already noticed the benefits. I don't then get bored of the pattern as I can then move onto something else, give my fingers a rest, still have achieved something and take another look in my next session.

I will say I think this is only appropriate for pieces where the general pattern of the notes is similar in design, I would not suggest picking up a Chopin Ballad - going to the hardest piece on slow tempo, up to full speed and think you have the whole piece done

This same approach could work on some Bach preludes for example such as C Major and C minor are 2 that I can think of.

[yadeehoo]

Indeed, the point was not "play all Chopin etudes on your first piano year at full speed".

But you can use part of the etudes as drills to warm up.

Play slow is the hardest thing I find, and only with strong sense of rhythm and strength & flexibility in the fingers it becomes possible to play slow fluidly, with ease, and relaxed at the slowest tempos

[visitor]

Not bad, and you're doing yourself no harm.  

+1 , really.

kuddos for attempting this, really.  i have a few comments which are not to be taken as a negative critique of you , but rather some helpful suggestions to consider (by all means i am not the be all end all but i hope i can help you a little bit). what follows are a few of my immediate thoughts after watching /listening (But more so from watching)

i see nothing 'dangerous' per say, however if your aim is to eventually play this 'musically' then i would find another warm up.  

i had just read an article in an old issue of the etude magazine (a wonderful resource many musicians should seek out, there are tons of performance and pedagogy articles/essays worth reading) that was titled:
mechanical practice = mechanical performance.  you'll learn and ingrain things in the manner of which you repeatedly practice.  There is nothing wrong w using an etude for a warm up, but I would caution anyone as using an etude they eventually want to learn properly as a warm up tool since it will be harder to unlearn certain things.

a fast etude played slowly is not the same etude at a slower tempo. the learning process will include (especially at the earlier grades) but neuro and soft tissue adaptations. and hermetic stressors (that cause these adaptations) are stimulus specific. you are not creating the same stimuli so there are movements and motor patterns you are practicing that may work at the slow tempo but that are wholly ineffective to execute the piece at the faster tempos.  specifically you have a lot of inefficient movement of the writs and a lot of unnecessary finger flexion. also your hand sits awfully high off of the keyboard, it is very difficult to play fast and accurately with that much distance between your fingers and keys, also on a digital it is of less importance but i believe it is likely were you to replicate this on an acoustic grand,  your tone would suffer due to in complete transfer of the weight from one finger to the next (ie not playing all the way into the key bed w each stroke prior to shifting and transferring to the next).  rather a concerted effort to move towards a movement of the hand like it is 'sliding' up and down the keyboard will  help immensely.

you mentioned a few things feeling 'strange' this is indicative of an unnatural hand position and those are spots i would focus on to keep the hand in a natural shape rather than 'stretching' the fingers, flexibility between fingers is overrated for most things (it is a bit more practice in left hand for very large five finger chords where rolling is less desirable or to get a faster roll out of it for necessity, a little bit for large right hand chords as well, but not so much for arpegios, those are more a function of agility)

again if you never aspire to play it properly and this motivates you to practice, then by all means chip away (better to practice than not practice at all), but do be open minded to the possibility that you may be making some progress now at the expense of further refinement later due to inefficient body mechanics.

[adodd81802]

+1 , really.

kuddos for attempting this, really.  i have a few comments which are not to be taken as a negative critique of you , but rather some helpful suggestions to consider (by all means i am not the be all end all but i hope i can help you a little bit). what follows are a few of my immediate thoughts after watching /listening (But more so from watching)

i see nothing 'dangerous' per say, however if your aim is to eventually play this 'musically' then i would find another warm up.  

i had just read an article in an old issue of the etude magazine (a wonderful resource many musicians should seek out, there are tons of performance and pedagogy articles/essays worth reading) that was titled:
mechanical practice = mechanical performance.  you'll learn and ingrain things in the manner of which you repeatedly practice.  There is nothing wrong w using an etude for a warm up, but I would caution anyone as using an etude they eventually want to learn properly as a warm up tool since it will be harder to unlearn certain things.

a fast etude played slowly is not the same etude at a slower tempo. the learning process will include (especially at the earlier grades) but neuro and soft tissue adaptations. and hermetic stressors (that cause these adaptations) are stimulus specific. you are not creating the same stimuli so there are movements and motor patterns you are practicing that may work at the slow tempo but that are wholly ineffective to execute the piece at the faster tempos.  specifically you have a lot of inefficient movement of the writs and a lot of unnecessary finger flexion. also your hand sits awfully high off of the keyboard, it is very difficult to play fast and accurately with that much distance between your fingers and keys, also on a digital it is of less importance but i believe it is likely were you to replicate this on an acoustic grand,  your tone would suffer due to in complete transfer of the weight from one finger to the next (ie not playing all the way into the key bed w each stroke prior to shifting and transferring to the next).  rather a concerted effort to move towards a movement of the hand like it is 'sliding' up and down the keyboard will  help immensely.

you mentioned a few things feeling 'strange' this is indicative of an unnatural hand position and those are spots i would focus on to keep the hand in a natural shape rather than 'stretching' the fingers, flexibility between fingers is overrated for most things (it is a bit more practice in left hand for very large five finger chords where rolling is less desirable or to get a faster roll out of it for necessity, a little bit for large right hand chords as well, but not so much for arpegios, those are more a function of agility)

again if you never aspire to play it properly and this motivates you to practice, then by all means chip away (better to practice than not practice at all), but do be open minded to the possibility that you may be making some progress now at the expense of further refinement later due to inefficient body mechanics.

Very helpful information here.

[yadeehoo]

I half agree on the theory part with you, Visitor.

I'm not sure practice has to be mechanical, even tho, it is, as for any muscle moving. But before you play a hard piece, you need to ingrain it to you brain, for sure.

Playing half tempo is different that playing full speed : For sure, that's why you don't jump from 70 to 90 bpm on practice. Already 5 bpm more and you can feel if there's something wrong in your arm approach.

Unless there is a way to mentally visualize a piece and then play itright away at full speed with "proper" technique, I'm pretty sure slow practice is something anyone have to go through.

The "feeling strange" in this piece is simply due to the shape of your hand changing, since the purpose of this etude is to "unteach" everything, and challenge the player beyond his/her comfort zone

You should really try to play it, some things are better understood this way. It's nice to share our thoughts about a piece, it's even better if we practice it as well, as we'll get some different experiences about it. 2 bars at a time...

[kawai_cs]

Yadehoo, I really admire your devotion and hard work , but I am not impressed by this video. Why should anyone be? I mean, I would be impressed if I heard you playing a piece decently (from beginning to the end!) at its required tempo, with good phrasing and dynamics as in the score, etc.  E.g. a Bach invention?
The "notes" of this etude are easy to learn. You play it very slow and even at this tempo you play them very uneven and slurred at more uncomfortable parts. It is gonna be like 10 more years before you can play the WHOLE piece in TEMPO without hurting your hands.

[hardy_practice]

It is gonna be like 10 more years before you can play the WHOLE piece in TEMPO without hurting your hands.

So soon?

[dcstudio]

ok yadehoo...  you have some potential    there is musicality to your playing. 


it is your previous comments and claims that are causing some of these negative reactions. You are very new to all of this and have yet to understand how seriously some people take learning to play the piano.  I myself have been at it 47 years. I have some serious training and experience relatively speaking and though I do get all huffy now and then you will never hear me claim to have all the answers.  This tradition has really developed from the time of Pythagorean  tuning and the man who invented it.   This is a discipline and the master composers are to be respected as is their music.  That is the attitude of the serious student here.   

stuffy as it sounds... this is the law. 

[yadeehoo]

Yadehoo, I really admire your devotion and hard work , but I am not impressed by this video. Why should anyone be?

The goal here is not to impress, on the contrary, it's to make it seem accessible. (if you wanna be impressed, watch the pros and get discouraged right away)

Don't feel fooled tho, it's still hard, but very very possible with practice, for anybody, and without having injuries.

Come on guys, just try to play the first 2 bars, how hard could that be?

And yes, the notes very easy to learn.

[yadeehoo]

ok yadehoo...  you have some potential    there is musicality to your playing. 


it is your previous comments and claims that are causing some of these negative reactions. You are very new to all of this and have yet to understand how seriously some people take learning to play the piano.  I myself have been at it 47 years. I have some serious training and experience relatively speaking and though I do get all huffy now and then you will never hear me claim to have all the answers.  This tradition has really developed from the time of Pythagorean  tuning and the man who invented it.   This is a discipline and the master composers are to be respected as is their music.  That is the attitude of the serious student here.   

stuffy as it sounds... this is the law. 

Yes, I'm pretty new, and I started "on the field", with no references whatsoever. But slowly i'm getting into theory and history of music.

I'm still convinced that there is more than "just one way" or a "proper way", of learning, practicing and performing.

But it's fun cause it's causing heated conversations

[kawai_cs]

Yadehoo, I am really starting to love how stubborn you are
Ok, so is there another way for a baby to consume beef roast than to grow and get teeth? And I mean real beef roast, not something minced or mushed into a form of baby food, which is, what seems to me you are doing right now with this etude  (which is, by the way, my favorite one)

[yadeehoo]

Yadehoo, I am really starting to love how stubborn you are
Ok, so is there another way for a baby to consume beef roast than to grow and get teeth? And I mean real beef roast, not something minced or mushed into a form of baby food, which is, what seems to me you are doing right now with this etude  (which is, by the way, my favorite one)

Stubborn, duh, it's true, I was born like that, people have tried to help, to no avail. I'm not sure what you're taking about with the babies, I'm French and we have different traditions.

Is this really your favorite etude?  It's amazing how simple it is, yet not so simple to play

[outin]

The goal here is not to impress, on the contrary, it's to make it seem accessible.

And I think that's exactly the issue some of us have with your posts. The Chopin etudes simply are not accessible as entry level pieces, so claiming they are is considered bad information. It takes a certain level of experience in playing classical piano music to understand this I guess.

It is true that one won't necessarily wreck one's hands by trying, but one certainly will wreck the poor pieces...

I'm still convinced that there is more than "just one way" or a "proper way", of learning, practicing and performing.

Surprise...I agree!
But that doesn't mean that EVERY way is reasonable...

[hardy_practice]

It is true that one won't necessarily wreck one's hands by trying, but one certainly will wreck the poor pieces...

That's OK.  Even Chopin says to take this piece slowly.

[dogperson]

And I think that's exactly the issue some of us have with your posts. The Chopin etudes simply are not accessible as entry level pieces, so claiming they are is considered bad information. It takes a certain level of experience in playing classical piano music to understand this I guess.

It is true that one won't necessarily wreck one's hands by trying, but one certainly will wreck the poor pieces...

Surprise...I agree!
But that doesn't mean that EVERY way is reasonable...

What is not clear is what has been learned  The original post about this etude was that the entire etude had been memorized, and the benefits of learning the entire etude to a beginning pianist without a teacher. 

   The vd that is posted is a few measures only, rather than the entirety. 
I doubt that many here would argue with playing only a couple of measures slowly, but concentrating on learning more appropriate repertoire that will build a general foundation in theory and skills. 

[yadeehoo]

What is not clear is what has been learned  The original post about this etude was that the entire etude had been memorized, and the benefits of learning the entire etude to a beginning pianist without a teacher. 

   The vd that is posted is a few measures only, rather than the entirety. 
I doubt that many here would argue with playing only a couple of measures slowly, but concentrating on learning more appropriate repertoire that will build a general foundation in theory and skills. 

I only wrote 2 lines in the description, how hard is it to read?

The benefit is flexibility.

As for building up a repertoire, you guys keep doing what you're doing, it's just fine.

Again, the goal is not to be able to perform this piece live, just to use it as personal practice and enjoyment.

[yadeehoo]

The Chopin etudes simply are not accessible as entry level pieces, so claiming they are is considered bad information. It takes a certain level of experience in playing classical piano music to understand this I guess.

I just proved otherwise, didn't I ?

[dogperson]

I only wrote 2 lines in the description, how hard is it to read?

The benefit is flexibility.

As for building up a repertoire, you guys keep doing what you're doing, it's just fine.

Again, the goal is not to be able to perform this piece live, just to use it as personal practice and enjoyment.

Yes, you only wrote two lines in the description, but this does match your original thread where you stated you had memorized the entire piece.  Did you learn the entire piece is the question you have not answered.   You did not demonstrate this is accessible by playing a few measures.

[adodd81802]

Hi Yadeehoo.

I'm afraid you didn't prove it unfortunately. Let's be honest (I am not professional, please do not take offence)

Even at that tempo - your fingers were uneven, slurred on a couple notes that I heard (slur is not the same as legato) and I think i even heard a miss hit of a note or two and I am also not convinced about your arm/wrist motions in the notes that you are playing.

Let's not misunderstand here that speed in itself is not the only aspect of a technique that needs to be increased over time.

There are many other aspects, some more obvious than others, but as you develop simpler pieces your whole technique will develop with it. You will encounter challenges in different pieces that allows you to drill down to little areas of technique to improve on and all along the way you are eventually preparing yourself for pieces such as These Etudes, not diving into them dead slow with the thought process that all your other lacking techniques will also improve over time.

Like a painting, learning a piece comes with layers of difficulty that you build upon each time you take on a suitable challenge. You wouldn't, as a beginner start painting the Mona Lisa and just hope that going really slowly with a couple colours and a brush that you're going to end with the perfect finished product - You start by laying down little foundations, learning how to mix the right colours, a suitable brush for a suitable effect, every single arm motion has been learnt to become part of your instinct to create the desired effect.  

I understand that you have certain goals in mind while attempting to practice this small passage, but the goals you want can much more efficiently be obtained by practicing more suitable pieces and studies. This piece in particular is well known for it's arpeggios. Practice arpeggios. There is a good Paul Barton tutorial on this piece, have a look on Youtube.

You are obviously a motivated and stubborn pianist-in-learning (as we all are!) but no matter what your level, every pianist started at the beginning. progression from the beginning to the end result may be quicker for some than others for a variety of reasons, but the fact remains the beginning for everybody is the same place and the end result is only obtained by a few that are willing to put in the correct and methodical practice to get them to the end.

I highlight again - Correct and methodical practice. Don't get bulked down with This Etude even for 15 minutes of your practice time when there's many other suitable pieces and studies that can be practiced that will get you ready for this Etude without even touching it.

Good luck.

[outin]

I just proved otherwise, didn't I ?

IMO you didn't...

[yadeehoo]

no matter what your level, every pianist started at the beginning. progression from the beginning to the end result may be quicker for some than others for a variety of reasons, but the fact remains the beginning for everybody is the same place and the end result is only obtained by a few that are willing to put in the correct and methodical practice to get them to the end.

For me the beginning is at the first bar, the end on the last one.

[adodd81802]

For me the beginning is at the first bar, the end on the last one.

Then good luck in your studies, you cannot be taught, and so I (and everybody else) will look forward to viewing your finished product.

[yadeehoo]

Then good luck in your studies, you cannot be taught, and so I (and everybody else) will look forward to viewing your finished product.

I wish I'd meet someone who believes I can be taught.

This person will then be my teacher

[adodd81802]

Unfortunately with your attitude to learning, the only way you can be taught is if you are taught only what you want to know, not what you do not know.

Nobody including a teacher needs to prove themselves to you to show that you have something to learn from what they say. You need to understand that when considering other's advice. A consensus of opinions against your original post should indicate that maybe you're not as revolutionary as you hoped.

Just my opinion - No offence intended. 

[yadeehoo]

with your attitude to learning, the only way you can be taught is if you are taught only what you want to know, not what you do not know.

Exactly right ! I wanna learn what I want to learn, If I'm paying someone to teach me, I want at least this person teaching me want I want to learn.

I do believe teachers have to prove themselves, otherwise anybody can just claim to be one.

[adodd81802]

Exactly right ! I wanna learn what I want to learn, If I'm paying someone to teach me, I want at least this person teaching me want I want to learn.

I do believe teachers have to prove themselves, otherwise anybody can just claim to be one.

Unfortunately the world does not owe you anything and neither does a pianist or any piano teacher for that matter.

with so many requests for online piano teaching, an increase in prices, with much greater pianists even applying to these wonderful teachers, what makes you think they will be queuing up to teach somebody who does not want to be taught.

I do agree find a good teacher, that can be achieved by trialing different teachers and being open minded about their teaching techniques... But you are suggesting you know everything already and just want it confirmed. Hell you can pay me to do that if you like.

You are massively misinformed on how becoming a better pianist works, and to assume that no matter your level, you can find a teacher that will teach you any piece just because you want to learn it is most certainly not the case.

I sympathize your thought process that will only end in despair. I hope you have a plan B if
being a Pianist is a career plan.

[yadeehoo]

Unfortunately the world does not owe you anything and neither does a pianist or any piano teacher for that matter.

with so many requests for online piano teaching, an increase in prices, with much greater pianists even applying to these wonderful teachers, what makes you think they will be queuing up to teach somebody who does not want to be taught.

I do agree find a good teacher, that can be achieved by trialing different teachers and being open minded about their teaching techniques... But you are suggesting you know everything already and just want it confirmed. Hell you can pay me to do that if you like.

You are massively misinformed on how becoming a better pianist works, and to assume that no matter your level, you can find a teacher that will teach you any piece just because you want to learn it is most certainly not the case.

I sympathize your thought process that will only end in despair. I hope you have a plan B if
being a Pianist is a career plan.

Was that you trying to help me at your best?

I've been teaching (guitar, French & English) and I found it possible to adjust to my students needs and way of learning. Sure is more exhausting than plainly teaching "your" method, one size fits all. But it's more of the Socratic approach, which works great with anyone, especially holistic learners or people with Aspergers.

If teachers are not willing to put in the effort, I don't understand why they ask for such high rates.

Good for them if they find students, but it's not the kind of people I'm looking for.

Every time I call painter to repaint my walls in red, they always repaint it in white, cause that's "what they do". No wonder why I ended up repainting my walls myself. Same with piano, I'll be learning by myself until I find someone that really wants to help.

Maybe you're right, I don't wanna be "taught", I just want to learn

For the zillionth time, I'm not planning on being a pianist, be reassured   I'm mainly a Pop producer/songwriter. I found the piano to be extremely interesting to learn tho.
 

[adodd81802]

Again you are on the misconception that you are owed a good teacher. If anything (for the good teachers) it is the other way around you need to prove that you are a worthy student.

High rates of pay are not based on every student wanting to learn their own way and having their ignorant opinion reinforced by a better pianist.

High rates of pay are based on a tried and tested method producing World class pianists that could not simply be achieved through self-learning.

It would be even more ignorant to assume surely that you know the best way to learn how to play the piano better? As what you're suggesting is that you want to learn your way... It doesn't work like that. 

Learning and improvement is about taking all the information and finding out what works for you. You may have taught the guitar already but that does not mean the same rules apply to learning the piano.

We have agreed on nothing except that the piano is indeed an interesting instrument to learn. It's simply one of a kind. I think you should probably go back to the guitar rather than look to pursue the piano as it seems like it will end in disappointment.

[dcstudio]

Yes, I'm pretty new, and I started "on the field", with no references whatsoever. But slowly i'm getting into theory and history of music.

I'm still convinced that there is more than "just one way" or a "proper way", of learning, practicing and performing.

But it's fun cause it's causing heated conversations

of course there is more than one way to learn...

your enthusiasm is great, really. I understand that "I just want to learn I don't want to be taught" mentality"    that's fine. 

you newbs... lol.  it's funny how many of you I have seen come through here in the last decade.   So many think they have discovered something new or that they are defying the laws of physics by figuring out a few measures of an advanced piece of music.   I am fine with that until you guys start trying to help others... 

what has happened is that all of your life you have thought it was impossible to play the piano without strict formal lessons--(or some other prerequisite).  Now you realize that maybe it isn't as difficult as you once thought it was.  It is very exciting when you realize that there is a possibility that you could actually play at a very advanced level.

some newbs try to spread the "good news" that--Hey! this isn't so hard--because I can do this!"  You are meeting some shell-shocked piano students who are in a decade or more and haven't even turned 18 yet.   

Your perceptions are brand new... you are in the "honeymoon" period as I like to call it..  In love with the piano and with yourself for playing it..lol

you have yet to be trounced by a piece of music or another player or a teacher---you have no pain...  there is only joy and excitement. if that makes any sense.  Later there will be disappointment, frustration, anger...and the myriad of negativity every pianist experiences.

that's a fact.

[sumpianodude]

of course there is more than one way to learn...

your enthusiasm is great, really. I understand that "I just want to learn I don't want to be taught" mentality"    that's fine. 

you newbs... lol.  it's funny how many of you I have seen come through here in the last decade.   So many think they have discovered something new or that they are defying the laws of physics by figuring out a few measures of an advanced piece of music.   I am fine with that until you guys start trying to help others... 

what has happened is that all of your life you have thought it was impossible to play the piano without strict formal lessons--(or some other prerequisite).  Now you realize that maybe it isn't as difficult as you once thought it was.  It is very exciting when you realize that there is a possibility that you could actually play at a very advanced level.

some newbs try to spread the "good news" that--Hey! this isn't so hard--because I can do this!"  You are meeting some shell-shocked piano students who are in a decade or more and haven't even turned 18 yet.   

Your perceptions are brand new... you are in the "honeymoon" period as I like to call it..  In love with the piano and with yourself for playing it..lol

you have yet to be trounced by a piece of music or another player or a teacher---you have no pain...  there is only joy and excitement. if that makes any sense.  Later there will be disappointment, frustration, anger...and the myriad of negativity every pianist experiences.

that's a fact.

Well spoken( or typed).
Now we will share this with the world and strike fear in the heart of every young pianist.

[yadeehoo]

Picasso said : - Every child is an artist, the challenge is to stay an artist as you grow up.

I'm still a child at 35, and I wish to keep it that way.

I understand enthusiasm can easily be mistaken for arrogance, cause I'm a newbie and I already know it all, and I found a revolutionary approach to learning piano, and so on and so on...

Let's just try strive to support each others, for as long as we can.

I will encounter enough reasons to be discouraged in the course of my own journey, I don't need to be discouraged even more by cynical people, it's not necessary.

[dcstudio]

Picasso said : - Every child is an artist, the challenge is to stay an artist as you grow up.

I'm still a child at 35, and I wish to keep it that way.

I understand enthusiasm can easily be mistaken for arrogance, cause I'm a newbie and I already know it all, and I found a revolutionary approach to learning piano, and so on and so on...

Let's just try strive to support each others, for as long as we can.

I will encounter enough reasons to be discouraged in the course of my own journey, I don't need to be discouraged even more by cynical people, it's not necessary.

any more than it was necessary for you to tell another member--who had the correct answer btw.... to go back to his craft and stop posting like he knew something...

when it was you who was posting incorrect information and then defending it.


please spare me..lol

I wasn't discouraging your or criticizing you...  just telling you why you don't yet have a full perspective on playing the piano.   I envy you that thrill you are experiencing and I am not attacking you.

so did you play as a child?  or did a family member play?  what made you decide to take this up?  Is there a piece you have always wanted to play?  How much time per day are you spending at the piano?  How did you figure out the Chopin?  by ear or did you read it? 
Have you recently had a major life event... birth or death maybe?

[yadeehoo]

any more than it was necessary for you to tell another member--who had the correct answer btw.... to go back to his craft and stop posting like he knew something...

when it was you who was posting incorrect information and then defending it.


please spare me..lol

I wasn't discouraging your or criticizing you...  just telling you why you don't yet have a full perspective on playing the piano.   I envy you that thrill you are experiencing and I am not attacking you.

so did you play as a child?  or did a family member play?  what made you decide to take this up?  Is there a piece you have always wanted to play?  How much time per day are you spending at the piano?  How did you figure out the Chopin?  by ear or did you read it?  
Have you recently had a major life event... birth or death maybe?

Interesting comments and questions.

Yeah I survived an incredible car accident 6 years ago, I was 29. It made me want to do something in my life : playing music. So I started singing. Nobody is a musician or an artist in my family. I just happened to go to someone's place 2 years ago, where there was a piano and sheets of Beethov's Moonlight sonata, I insisted this person showed me how to read the first bar. Next day I bought a theory book and learned the basics of sight reading. Then I realized, at 33, something that seemed inaccessible in the past only cost a few hundred bucks nowdays, so I bought the cheapest 88notes Yamaha digital piano available, printed the Beethoven sheets, and started like this. Took me a whole week to read through the 3 pages of the first movement, but I did it, i learned my first piano song !

Same thing with Chopin, I bought the whole study book. I spend between 0 to 12 hours a day on the piano, depending on various circumstances/available time.

[georgey]

Yadeehoo,

You say: I'm still convinced that there is more than "just one way" or a "proper way", of learning, practicing and performing. But it's fun cause it's causing heated conversations

Which do you enjoy more:  heated conversations or practicing your etude?

Also, let's say you can play this etude as well as a world class piano player after 10 years by using your method of learning, praticing and performing.  What will you do then with it then?  Play it at a concert hall?  But it is only a couple minutes long.

What are your goals?  If it is enjoying practicing, looks like you are already there.  If it is to be a concert performer, you will need to listen to others for advice.

You looked pretty good playing a portion of this etude for an absolute beginner without lessons.  Good luck!

[dcstudio]

Interesting comments and questions.

Yeah I survived an incredible car accident 6 years ago, I was 29. It made me want to do something in my life : playing music. So I started singing. Nobody is a musician or an artist in my family. I just happened to go to someone's place 2 years ago, where there was a piano and sheets of Beethov's Moonlight sonata, I insisted this person showed me how to read the first bar. Next day I bought a theory book and learned the basics of sight reading. Then I realized, at 33, something that seemed inaccessible in the past only cost a few hundred bucks nowdays, so I bought the cheapest 88notes Yamaha digital piano available, printed the Beethoven sheets, and started like this. Took me a whole week to read through the 3 pages of the first movement, but I did it, i learned my first piano song !

Same thing with Chopin, I bought the whole study book. I spend between 0 to 12 hours a day on the piano, depending on various circumstances/available time.

I have seen many like you  actually the fact that you have no disturbing childhood memories of lessons or failed musical endeavors will work to your advantage.   I can't say it's normal...because well... to all of the sudden want to throw yourself into this completely--that's kind of obsessive...but you certainly aren't alone and I have seen some success stories.  What you have right now is this belief that really, this is easy.   Do not ever lose that or forget it no matter how difficult things become... just don't try to convince others of it. Let them find that out on their own.

Moonlight Sonata...hmmm  lol.   I wonder if Beethoven had any idea how tired piano teachers would become of that.   It is, however, the inspiration for so many to take up the piano.  

[yadeehoo]

Yadeehoo,

You say: I'm still convinced that there is more than "just one way" or a "proper way", of learning, practicing and performing. But it's fun cause it's causing heated conversations

Which do you enjoy more:  heated conversations or practicing your etude?

Also, let's say you can play this etude as well as a world class piano player after 10 years by using your method of learning, praticing and performing.  What will you do then with it then?  Play it at a concert hall?  But it is only a couple minutes long.

What are your goals?  If it is enjoying practicing, looks like you are already there.  If it is to be a concert performer, you will need to listen to others for advice.

You looked pretty good playing a portion of this etude for an absolute beginner without lessons.  Good luck!

When I'm tired of practicing , I come here and participate to the forum, I learn a lot of things from the comments.

I'm not gonna be a concert pianist, I'm studying piano for fun, as a personal enjoyment.

I don't mind listening to people advices, but I learn a lot more from harsh critics.

Thank You 

[yadeehoo]

What you have right now is this belief that really, this is easy.   Do not ever lose that or forget it no matter how difficult things become... just don't try to convince others of it. Let them find that out on their own.

I'd rather convince people that something is easy, eventually explain why I see it as something accessible, rather than trying to discourage someone from pursuing they dreams.

But you're right, there are things we need to find out on our own.

[dcstudio]

I'd rather convince people that something is easy, eventually explain why I see it as something accessible, rather than trying to discourage someone from pursuing they dreams.

But you're right, there are things we need to find out on our own.

there is no need to discourage anyone from pursuing anything...   just always keep your focus on your own progress.

[eskape]

I have seen many like you  actually the fact that you have no disturbing childhood memories of lessons or failed musical endeavors will work to your advantage.   I can't say it's normal...because well... to all of the sudden want to throw yourself into this completely--that's kind of obsessive...but you certainly aren't alone and I have seen some success stories.  What you have right now is this belief that really, this is easy.   Do not ever lose that or forget it no matter how difficult things become... just don't try to convince others of it. Let them find that out on their own.

Moonlight Sonata...hmmm  lol.   I wonder if Beethoven had any idea how tired piano teachers would become of that.   It is, however, the inspiration for so many to take up the piano.  

And do you believe persons who start playing piano an an advanced age have a future in it or no? Is this even possible?
I also started piano late in my life, at 21 to be precise, because of something that happened to my family. Now I am 27, and played etude op 10 n.12 from chopin along with other stuff at my summer exams, and passed. I am now studying 1st movement of the Waldstein sonata and have attacked the Golberg variations.
To be honest, I study many hours a day, everyday, to arrive where I am today. It's just that i cannot stop thinking that maybe there is no future for people like us on the piano. I see that the difference in technique between me and a 10yr old chinese girl is huge...
Hell, at least I really love what I'm doing!

[yadeehoo]

And do you believe persons who start playing piano an an advanced age have a future in it or no? Is this even possible?
I also started piano late in my life, at 21 to be precise, because of something that happened to my family. Now I am 27, and played etude op 10 n.12 from chopin along with other stuff at my summer exams, and passed. I am now studying 1st movement of the Waldstein sonata and have attacked the Golberg variations.
To be honest, I study many hours a day, everyday, to arrive where I am today. It's just that i cannot stop thinking that maybe there is no future for people like us on the piano. I see that the difference in technique between me and a 10yr old chinese girl is huge...
Hell, at least I really love what I'm doing!

If you have a good time enjoying what you're doing, you have already "made it".

Unless it's something else you're talking about...?

Also, what do you mean by "there is no future" ? Why would you need a future if you're enjoying what you're doing now?

[eskape]

If you have a good time enjoying what you're doing, you have already "made it".

Unless it's something else you're talking about...?

I really enjoy doing it yes.
But on the other hand, I quit my job so as to continue studying and get deeper in the "art of piano". As a consequence, I have thoughts about if that was a good idea and if it will turn good for me (ie. be good enough to play in concerts, or if not, focus on becoming a good and interesting teacher), as we all have to make a living.
I think my fear is focused somewhere there.

[yadeehoo]

I really enjoy doing it yes.
But on the other hand, I quit my job so as to continue studying and get deeper in the "art of piano". As a consequence, I have thoughts about if that was a good idea and if it will turn good for me (ie. be good enough to play in concerts, or if not, focus on becoming a good and interesting teacher), as we all have to make a living.
I think my fear is focused somewhere there.

Well, you don't have to play hard pieces to be a good live performer, first of all, also you could play your own songs, be funny, be inventive. If you wanna make a living as a performer, there's so many ways to do it, if that's what you really want, and you feel like you wanna give it to the audience. It doesn't have to be a competition, unless you wanna win a piano competition, but other than that, every doors are pretty much opened for you, or anybody who dares to believe they can.

We need people like that, we do !

Living a frugal lifestyle is sometimes the price to pay to enjoy every minute of your existence.

[georgey]

Yadeehoo,

Just a follow-up on my earlier post:  I am in complete agreement with you in your pursuing piano only for the enjoyment.  You appear to be doing very well in this regard.  Although it is not a problem now, I can think of 2 items that MAY hinder your enjoyment of playing the piano at some point in the future (maybe not for several years, if ever).

1)   You reach a “wall” where you are showing no improvement.  Seeing improvement MAY be an important part of your enjoyment.  You appear to be doing well currently.  At some point you may see that you are no longer able to improve on Chopin etude #1, for example.  Maybe you reach a certain speed and are unable to go beyond that speed without playing poorly, no matter how much time you spend on it
2)   Injury to your hands.  It is not enjoyable to play if you are experiencing pain.

If these items hinder your enjoyment at some point in the future, you may need to rethink how you approach playing the piano.  For now: ENJOY!

[yadeehoo]

Yadeehoo,

Just a follow-up on my earlier post:  I am in complete agreement with you in your pursuing piano only for the enjoyment.  You appear to be doing very well in this regard.  Although it is not a problem now, I can think of 2 items that MAY hinder your enjoyment of playing the piano at some point in the future (maybe not for several years, if ever).

1)   You reach a “wall” where you are showing no improvement.  Seeing improvement MAY be an important part of your enjoyment.  You appear to be doing well currently.  At some point you may see that you are no longer able to improve on Chopin etude #1, for example.  Maybe you reach a certain speed and are unable to go beyond that speed without playing poorly, no matter how much time you spend on it
2)   Injury to your hands.  It is not enjoyable to play if you are experiencing pain.

If these items hinder your enjoyment at some point in the future, you may need to rethink how you approach playing the piano.  For now: ENJOY!

Thanks,

In this first 2 years, i feel i play 10 times better everyday compared to the previous day. I've never done anything in my live where progress jumps in such high leaps. Fortunately, never felt any pain, but might be because I've done intensive rock climbing, and played guitar, bass and drums for many years as well.

Or maybe it's cause I'm taking it slow, and just rest when if feel the tension coming...

Or maybe just luck (so far...)

[dcstudio]

And do you believe persons who start playing piano an an advanced age have a future in it or no? Is this even possible?


cannot stop thinking that maybe there is no future for people like us on the piano. I see that the difference in technique between me and a 10yr old chinese girl is huge...
Hell, at least I really love what I'm doing!

a future? depends on how you define it and what your expectations are.

I will tell you now--as a person who has done this for my entire life... if you are expecting anything other than a lifetime of incredible joy that will come from your personal journey to piano "nirvana"--(which is WORTH IT)... you will not survive.

If it is adulation or a paycheck or to be "better" at something than someone else that you seek... you won't find it here.   I have received all of this and it does absolutely nothing to fill that kind of expectation.. you can take that to the bank...  ask anyone . 

[eskape]

a future? depends on how you define it and what your expectations are.

I will tell you now--as a person who has done this for my entire life... if you are expecting anything other than a lifetime of incredible joy that will come from your personal journey to piano "nirvana"--(which is WORTH IT)... you will not survive.

If it is adulation or a paycheck or to be "better" at something than someone else that you seek... you won't find it here.   I have received all of this and it does absolutely nothing to fill that kind of expectation.. you can take that to the bank...  ask anyone . 

That's fine with me then, since the reason I started playing was because I enjoyed playing.
As for the rest, my concern is if I could make a living out of it, and it seems I can. My expectations aren't really big : enough money to eat, have a ceiling on top of my head, and a piano in my house. ...and maybe some vacations from time to time? who knows

Thanks

[dcstudio]

That's fine with me then, since the reason I started playing was because I enjoyed playing.
As for the rest, my concern is if I could make a living out of it, and it seems I can. My expectations aren't really big : enough money to eat, have a ceiling on top of my head, and a piano in my house. ...and maybe some vacations from time to time? who knows

Thanks

so you got a gig, did you? lol  

that's a great attitude...  I am not saying you shouldn't aim for the moon, really--go for it.. but if you can consider yourself blessed to be able play and then even more blessed that someone likes what you play enough to pay you for it... you will survive.