The true difficulty of Chopin's Etude Op. 25 No. 12 in C minor (Ocean)

[darkpisces]

Why does it seem like any discussion about the difficulty of Chopin's etudes and which etudes are most difficult, this etude seems to be thrown out or seen as easier? The thing I want to say to all the people who think that of this etude, is that you are not considering an extremely important factor. That factor is - this piece is inscribed as 160bpm.

Just because you can play all the notes at a decent speed of about 120, more or less doesn't mean you can say ''I've finished the piece and it's less difficult than other etudes, and I can say this because I can play it''.

Play this piece at 160bpm which hardly anyone can do, then come back and tell me how difficult this piece is. Because you are judging it off of false difficulty that you've made up yourselves. This etude is one of the most difficult of them all, in some cases I've seen it looks like it can be the MOST difficult etude of them all. Why? Because hardly anyone is playing it at the tempo that Chopin composed it to be. I've seen more people pull off a monstrously difficult piece like Etude Op. 25 No. 11 (Winter Wind) but as soon as they move into the Ocean Etude they are unable to play it at it's inscribed tempo. Judging by the fact hardly anyone is doing that, I'd say this etude has to be the most difficult in it's own right.

[adodd81802]

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[darkpisces]

Hi Darkpisces.

By your number of posts I assume you're new. I must say I'm stumped at your rant, and unsure of your motive or your desired response.

Most, if not all of Chopin's Etudes are equally difficult in their own right. While speed of playing is a factor in all the pieces, the technical benefit from playing them I believe is what Chopin had in mind rather than speed.

I must admit I have not seen on any Pianostreet forums another user or pianist claiming this Etude to be easy.

Furthermore, knowing that these Etudes are built for specific technical challenges should most definitely prompt a pianist who may be able to perform one Etude have to start all over with the next.

I am not ready for these Etudes but I have had a dabble to see how they feel and can tell you that I find it easier bringing 10-1 up to tempo then 10-2.

The speed of op10-2 is clearly slower than op10-1 but the technical challenges are so different it once again clarifies that it's not about speed.

I'll end on saying this is a forum for assistance and information, you have posted in the Students corner, it does not seem you require assistance more argument for the difficulty of a piece, which nobody that I can see has disputed. Please think more next time before posting.

I'm new to actually signing up but I've read posts on here for a while and one of the reasons I finally signed up is because I've seen posts on the students corner about Ocean being easier and in one case someone actually said it is easy. So actually my rant is justified because those posts are preposterous. Also you've completely misunderstood what I mean by speed. If you think speed isn't technique when it comes to this sort of thing then you are mistaken. To be able to play this etude to tempo requires nothing but technique being absolutely flawless. You can't say playing Winter Wind at 60bpm is playing Winter Wind. The tempo is exactly what creates the piece because the higher the tempo the more technique is involved.

There is a point to this ''rant'' because I have in fact seen some disregard for this etude and I'm answering those people without trying to look stupid by posting it on an old post. And yes all of the etudes are the most difficult in their own right but it doesn't change the fact that I've seen less people play this etude to tempo then I have seen people play the other etudes well, and that must be saying something.

[adodd81802]

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[yadeehoo]

I see what you mean, Darkpisces.

It's true that the genuine nature of a piece sometimes can only be heard a the marked tempo, some kind of subliminal harmony transcends through and make the piece shine.

From what I heard tho, this piece seem beautiful enough at slower tempo. But if you wanna be the first one to play it full speed, go on and tell us what you find, maybe we've all been missing something on this piece, maybe nobody was able to play that piece the way it was intended.

It's an interesting question

[adodd81802]

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[darkpisces]

OK,

Well thanks for your clarification. I mean if they're old posts, i'd disregard them to be honest.  

As a major Chopin fan (like many on here are) I agree with you that this and many other Etudes are extremely more difficult then what they perceive to be..

I by no means disagree that accuracy at speed is definitely a skill in it's own right yes, and fair to say comparing a 60bpm to 160bpm is definitely 2 different levels of skill. I also agree that I wouldn't play something at a much lesser speed and consider it complete or agree with any others that claim to do so.

I do however disagree that there is so much difference between 120 and 160 that if you could play at 120 with 100% accuracy, you could then argue you have taken out a bulk of the learning. I mean that's what roughly 70% speed.

Also I don't know any serious pianist that would play something at 70% speed and claim to have completed the piece, especially an Etude.

Lastly, may I ask can you play this piece? It would be fair to say unless you can 100% play this and every other Chopin Etude it may be a little hasty of you to comment on its difficulty vs other Etudes and also worth noting that what you may find difficult in one piece, may not be experienced by another pianist for a number of reasons.

Again I have not seen anybody claiming this Etude to be easy. I would like to see your performance if you can play, I very much enjoy seeing other pianists perform these Etudes.

Sorry for coming off ranty but this piece means a great deal to me and I've seen a lot of people disregard it and you obviously saw this without knowing where I was coming from which I understand so sorry for the mood. As for the part you disagree on, I have to say that even 10bpm makes a difference in this piece.

120bpm and 160bpm are worlds apart and I can play this piece up to about 140 bpm and I promise you this, these arpeggios at 160bpm are ridiculously hard. Playing this piece decently at 120 is nothing like playing this at 160, I've put my metronome on downbeats at 160bpm and I just have to laugh, I can't even enter that speed without crashing and I can play it only 20bpm less but there is such difference.

Speed is definitely not just speed when it comes to this etude because the more speed you add to this, the more your technique actually changes, it's almost like a different gravity and it forces a technique that can only be extracted at that sort of speed.

I'm assuming you haven't played this piece but please if you can, put on a metronome for 120, sit at your piano and imagine this piece at the speed required for that tempo, now put it to 160 and do the same. I'm going as far as to say this piece has the fastest double hand arpeggios I've ever heard in any piece, so when people say it's easy or easier just because they can play it in a certain decent manner, it just baffles me because they are not considering the actual monstrosity of a tempo it's actually in.

I would definitely understand what people mean if the piece was supposed to be about 120bpm though, but it just seems like those people have some ego to talk about it like they are on the other end, like they've completed it when they just haven't.

[darkpisces]

I see what you mean, Darkpisces.

It's true that the genuine nature of a piece sometimes can only be heard a the marked tempo, some kind of subliminal harmony transcends through and make the piece shine.

From what I heard tho, this piece seem beautiful enough at slower tempo. But if you wanna be the first one to play it full speed, go on and tell us what you find, maybe we've all been missing something on this piece, maybe nobody was able to play that piece the way it was intended.

It's an interesting question

I absolutely agree, this piece is beautiful at slower tempo, I never meant to come across as saying it wasn't. And in all honesty I prefer the piece slower than the tempo Chopin intended, the tempo Chopin wants is way too fast but then again it's an etude and it's supposed to be about technique not just beautiful music. But I didn't mean any of this in terms of aesthetic and beauty. I just mean for someone to think they are in a position to judge whats difficult and what isn't, they should at least be able to play the piece as intended before doing so

[darkpisces]

Just to add - I have seen you other post. Again - it's definitely worth posting a performance of the piece, especially if you're having trouble with it so others can see, there are some good piano teachers in this forum that would be happy to assist you with your issue, but it's usually easier to see how you play to assess if there is anything you may be doing wrong.

How do I post a recording? I'm not a gold member so I don't know if that has anything to do with it

[adodd81802]

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[adodd81802]

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[yadeehoo]

I absolutely agree, this piece is beautiful at slower tempo, I never meant to come across as saying it wasn't. And in all honesty I prefer the piece slower than the tempo Chopin intended, the tempo Chopin wants is way too fast but then again it's an etude and it's supposed to be about technique not just beautiful music. But I didn't mean any of this in terms of aesthetic and beauty. I just mean for someone to think they are in a position to judge whats difficult and what isn't, they should at least be able to play the piece as intended before doing so

Ok, but keep in mind when Chopin etudes are performed, they are different. For instance Op10 No12 is supposed to be played without pedal throughout, but did you hear any pro performing it without pedal?

A performance is often an adaptation of the original source, it has to be entertaining. Playing these etudes as "etudes" in performance, would probably bore the audience to death.

[outin]

How do I post a recording?

It is possible to attach an MP3 file to your post. Just click on the additional options below the text field when posting.

[darkpisces]

I think this contradicts your original statement that this piece is so difficult when you have already stated you cannot play the piece at it's intended tempo and if anything confirms my response that if you cannot play this (and the other Etudes 100%) that it is indeed hasty for you to comment on how difficult it is.

Again I have not seen anybody disagree that this Etude is indeed difficult, I also have not seen a audition posted of this (that I can remember). I furthermore do not disagree about the difficulty of this piece and conclude with the believe that your original comment is not only invalid, it has no obvious agenda apart from to complain about other users. Please use this forum for valid discussions and advice.

It doesn't contradict what I said in any way because I don't need to be able to play it to tempo to feel how difficult it must be. You are not getting what I am trying to say, I am not the one who is saying I finished the piece or belittling it's difficulty when I can't even play it to tempo, I even posted asking for some help on the piece. I am saying that as for someone who can hit 140bpm, I can thoroughly say that the original tempo is ridiculous because I've already dealt with 140bpm which is already a super fast speed.

I've heard a couple of professional concert pianists play it at about 160bpm. Everyone else is playing it slower, isn't that some proof as to how difficult the original tempo must be? It is not hasty for me to comment because once again, hardly anyone can play it at original tempo and I've actually played the piece at high enough speeds to say that it's even more difficult than the difficulty I've dealt with. If anything I'm giving the piece it's due which you are saying is contradicting. Pretty sure if you can play a Chopin etude about 20bpm off tempo and find it very difficult you would be in position to say how much more difficult the original tempo would be.

If I could play the piece at 160bpm I would actually be in a position to belittle it because I would be able to play it which would mean it's easy enough for me to play.

[darkpisces]

Ok, but keep in mind when Chopin etudes are performed, they are different. For instance Op10 No12 is supposed to be played without pedal throughout, but did you hear any pro performing it without pedal?

A performance is often an adaptation of the original source, it has to be entertaining. Playing these etudes as "etudes" in performance, would probably bore the audience to death.

I agree and but that is not what my posts intention is about. I am not here talking about how the piece should be played and what's beautiful and what isn't, I am talking about sheer difficulty and that word alone.

[dogperson]

Hi
I don't think anyone should argue about the difficulty in the tempi.
If you have Paul Barton's videos and masterclasses, apologies, but here they are.  He does not dismiss the difficulty!

Tutorial

[darkpisces]

I just recorded this for you guys right now, I haven't warmed up and it was my first time playing the piano today. I start the metronome at 120bpm and play the chorus as example. I up it to 140bpm and then finally 160bpm. Excuse the quality, I am using my headset to record the piano and it definitely doesn't capture true quality

[darkpisces]

Hi
I don't think anyone should argue about the difficulty in the tempi.
If you have Paul Barton's videos and masterclasses, apologies, but here they are.  He does not dismiss the difficulty!

Tutorial

I have the upmost respect for Paul and I'm a fan of his, but I believe not even he is playing it at 160bpm

[darkpisces]

Yep, Paul is actually clocking in around 140bpm I just put him to my metronome

[dogperson]

Yep, Paul is actually clocking in around 140bpm I just put him to my metronome

Then, are we missing something?  It is certainly wonderful at 140 when played with precision.  Can that not just be the goal? 

[darkpisces]

Then, are we missing something?  It is certainly wonderful at 140 when played with precision.  Can that not just be the goal?  

140 is beautiful for this piece, this will be my third time mentioning that I prefer it at a slower tempo and I believe Chopin's tempo is too fast, but the piece is an etude, it's supposed to be tackling the technical issues of arpeggios, double notes and durability, so it's supposed to be 160bpm in terms of difficulty. I'm just trying to say that I personally feel like people are not giving the piece it's due in terms of difficulty, you don't know how many times I've seen someone say ''Oh it's just arpeggios over and over, once you get that down the rest is not too difficult''. That is coming from people who are unable to play it at 160bpm. Where as I struggle with 160bpm if I'm not warmed up and I give the piece it's due, these people are saying the piece is easier when they are just defining the piece at a slower tempo that they can play it at

[darkpisces]

On another note, I was just fiddling with this etude again and implemented a double octave note which would be the lowest C on the piano, and it gives it this explosion type of feel and makes the etude a little bit more difficult because you have to catch the second note of the arpeggio with your left hand since it was busy doubling the octave. What do you guys think about this? I love with and without and if this is an interesting concept I might make an entire new posts dedicated to it for a full discussion on different ways this etude can be played. Again, not warmed up and sorry for the distortion and quality, not much I can do about it really

[ianzilla]

As someone who has been playing this piece for over a year, i totally agree with you! but yes its still extremely impressive to play at 140 cleanly because even that is really difficult. This piece is probably my favorite etude cause its so beautiful!!

As for your playing, great job for a month! but work on the descending parts, maybe the second finger is giving you trouble cause its not clear sometimes.  try accenting particular fingers every time you go up and down that helped me a lot.

[darkpisces]

As someone who has been playing this piece for over a year, i totally agree with you! but yes its still extremely impressive to play at 140 cleanly because even that is really difficult. This piece is probably my favorite etude cause its so beautiful!!

As for your playing, great job for a month! but work on the descending parts, maybe the second finger is giving you trouble cause its not clear sometimes.  try accenting particular fingers every time you go up and down that helped me a lot.

It's so beautiful, I literally am in love. Such a heart wrenching piece of music for me personally. And thanks that was my guess, I will practice accenting those notes and then it's just a matter of time really. Would like to hear a recording of yours

[twelfthroot2]

I'd like to see Chopin play it at 160 bpm on a Steinway instead of his light-action Pleyel... for more than a couple reasons