Pray for Paris

[Bob]

https://news.sky.com/story/1588256/france-drops-20-bombs-on-is-stronghold-raqqa

[perfect_pitch]

I think it's a shame that I can only like this once... Oh WAIT...

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[lhb_]

An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth

3000 year old barbaric garbage

[ahinton]

3000 year old barbaric garbage

...from a time well before there were eye surgeons and orthodontists...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Amusing though that might be on one level, the fact remains that many such terrorists as we're considering in this discussion are prepared to - and often do - at least kill themselves and are prepared to do so, even if they do not actually "start" with themselves.

Anyway, this atrocious and despicable act, as others like it 9(/11, 7/7 &c.), has nothing to do with religion. The expression "so-called Islamic State" is bandied about with more frequency in UK than any other description of that "organisation" and, whilst the "so-called" might be understandable because it is neither Islamic nor a state with a government, boundaries, &c. as a state is usually understood as having, to use the term "Islamic" for it is a gross insult to Islam, as many Muslims agree. While its intended goal/s remains unclear, its activities are clearly designed to spread as much havoc, fear and devastation as possible against almost all possible targets rather than to set up an "Islamic state", of which there are already several in any case; IS, as it's usually called, seems to have little or no agenda besides just that.

Best,

Alistair

[novembre]

I am French and I live in Paris. I have been reading this forum for about a week as I recently started playing the piano again after years without it, I certainly didn't expect my first post to be on such a tragic topic.

I haven't lost any loved one, but I can't stop crying. However pointless some might feel prayers and thoughts are, even though I'm not a religious person I guarantee it's deeply comforting psychologically to receive so many expression of kindness and solidarity.

France has a huge problem, we don't feel so much fraternity anymore. Many didn't realize it before Charlie but it's right in front of us now. On January 7th, I was at work when the TV told us what happened and the first thing I heard was an embarrassing "Well, they asked for it" coming from a (usually very nice) Muslim colleague, the two other Muslim in the group agreed and the rest of the team was shocked. We grew up reading Cabu, some even studied his work at school, and we truly felt part of our culture had been stolen. He had just been killed by a kalashnikov in the middle of Paris. Crazy and unbelievable to us, it was not so unexpected to them. Then the conversation went on to 11/9 and it ended on the same division. They told us how their classes (we were in high school at the time) refused to do a minute of silence "Do they do minutes of silence for the Palestinian children Israel kills?" while my school organized a mass.
I am friend with these girls, we go out for coffee, we have fun, but something has clearly changed because of this talk. How come we defend so different views of the world while growing up in the same country? What can still be done to repair this? Is it too late?... Who is right?

It's not the only kind of indifference. When the Jewish supermarket was attacked, on the same street as our office, my boss (white, non-Muslim) was in the middle of his New Year speech. Muted TVs were showing pictures of the hostage situation, we could hear sirens outside and see police helicopters flying by the windows. But he didn't stop talking a minute about our company's financial health, glass of champagne in hand, while people were being murdered three minutes away. How sickening is that?

Part of the population did not feel truly moved by the January attacks because the targets were very precise and easily identified as "natural" enemies of extremist idiots. We could still feel somewhat safe: I'm not Jewish, they even spared the women's lives at Charlie Hebdo, my Muslim colleagues live healthy lives, in Seine-Saint-Denis, a poor area full of Muslims, why would they attack them there? We used to joke about it, saying that this crime stricken place was actually the safest place in France when it came to Daesh.

But it happened Friday, bombs, even in Seine-Saint-Denis. No distinctions of color and religion. It's proof that being free is enough to be an enemy. I really wish French people would realize we are all on the same boat, we are all the enemy. But it's not going to happen, I predict huge victories of right-wing extremists at next month elections.

[pencilart3]

Novembre, my prayers will always be with you. Even if the forum thinks that I am a fool, and even if God isn't even there, you can rest assured that if he is, he's getting lots of prayers about about your country from South Dakota.

[adodd81802]

Novembre, my prayers will always be with you. Even if the forum thinks that I am a fool, and even if God isn't even there, you can rest assured that if he is, he's getting lots of prayers about about your country from South Dakota.

You're not a fool, and respect to you for even sounding open minded about the fact God may not exist, despite your beliefs.. An argument between any religion should never be about who's right, but allowing one to be able to appreciate and respect the other.

[minor9th]

I think it's a little hypocritical for ISIS to want recreate an ancient caliphate by using modern technology to plan these monstrous attacks and recruit new members!

[zpianist]

You're not a fool, and respect to you for even sounding open minded about the fact God may not exist, despite your beliefs.. An argument between any religion should never be about who's right, but allowing one to be able to appreciate and respect the other.

well said!
something for many here to learn

[mjames]

Novembre:

The islamic faith NEEDS to be reformed. You should look into the nation wide surveys done in Western nations; you'd be surprised to find out how many "Western" Muslims sympathize, justify, and support terrorist attacks. In London alone there are over 100,000 "moderate" Muslims who supported the July bombings.

Thread:

How the hell did this turn into a Christian bashing topic? If there's any religion (though most of them deserve) that deserves the utmost bashing it's Islam. Just how many Islam nations constantly violate human rights?

By the way i find it weird that no one else has mentioned this: several of the terrorists were born and raised in Europe.

https://news.sky.com/story/1588256/france-drops-20-bombs-on-is-stronghold-raqqa

It's a PR tactic. If they actually wanted to get things done they'd cooperate with Russia and Assad's regime. The French and the other Western nations involved in this have been bombing Raqqa for the last few years. These operations in Raqqa have done little to no effect in regards to weakening ISIL's military strength; in fact within that time period, ISIL's military strength in Syria has actually GROWN. Isn't that proof enough that airstrikes in Raqqa alone won't do anything? The coalition between the Turks, Syria, and Russia have achieved far more progress in one month than the west has in the last 4 years.

Airstrikes alone won't solve anything; the Russians at least understand that. If the French government was actually serious about stopping ISIL, they'd cooperate with the ONLY major ISIL oppossed ground forces in Syria; the army controlled by Assad.

Until they do, I'll just see this as a shallow PR tactic in order to convince the French public that their government is actually doing something about extremism in the middle eastern regions.

[perfect_pitch]

You're not a fool, and respect to you for even sounding open minded about the fact God may not exist, despite your beliefs.. An argument between any religion should never be about who's right, but allowing one to be able to appreciate and respect the other.

Yes... However Atheists don't go around to peoples doors, knocking at all hours of the day trying to convince them that God DOESN'T exist.

I believe Atheists are more appreciative in this matter, and far more respectful.

[lhb_]

Yes... However Atheists don't go around to peoples doors, knocking at all hours of the day trying to convince them that God DOESN'T exist.

I believe Atheists are more appreciative in this matter, and far more respectful.

Somewhat insulting to the overwhelming majority of religious people that don't do any of those things.

[perfect_pitch]

Somewhat insulting to the overwhelming majority of religious people that don't do any of those things.

Well... the minority are making you look bad (and psychotic). Not my problem.

[deandeblock]

We have no idea what is developing in the non-Western world. Anger, dissatisfaction and anti-western sentiments. It is working towards its momentum!

And we should not close our eyes to the fact that the Muslim population living here among us in Europe share those sentiments.

We, Westerners, have been imposing our vision of life on the rest of the world in a neo-colonial style and I think we better stop doing that and mind our own affairs.

[pencilart3]

Lol look what is being posted under the title "Pray for Paris".

[iansinclair]

...
How the hell did this turn into a Christian bashing topic?

...

You know, I was wondering that myself... but then, I have noted over the years that most threads of this sort do.  I'm sort of used to it.

[ahinton]

Amusing though that might be on one level, the fact remains that many such terrorists as we're considering in this discussion are prepared to - and often do - at least kill themselves and are prepared to do so, even if they do not actually "start" with themselves.

Anyway, this atrocious and despicable act, as others like it 9(/11, 7/7 &c.), has nothing to do with religion. The expression "so-called Islamic State" is bandied about with more frequency in UK than any other description of that "organisation" and, whilst the "so-called" might be understandable because it is neither Islamic nor a state with a government, boundaries, &c. as a state is usually understood as having, to use the term "Islamic" for it is a gross insult to Islam, as many Muslims agree. While its intended goal/s remains unclear, its activities are clearly designed to spread as much havoc, fear and devastation as possible against almost all possible targets rather than to set up an "Islamic state", of which there are already several in any case; IS, as it's usually called, seems to have little or no agenda besides just that.

Best,

Alistair

[zpianist]

Airstrikes alone won't solve anything; the Russians at least understand that. If the French government was actually serious about stopping ISIL, they'd cooperate with the ONLY major ISIL oppossed ground forces in Syria; the army controlled by Assad.

That's the gist of what Donald Trump said in the 2nd GOP Debate *pukes*

[chopinlover01]

Novembre:

The islamic faith NEEDS to be reformed. You should look into the nation wide surveys done in Western nations; you'd be surprised to find out how many "Western" Muslims sympathize, justify, and support terrorist attacks. In London alone there are over 100,000 "moderate" Muslims who supported the July bombings.

Actually, that study (if we're talking about the same one)conveniently ignored the fine print. The 100,000 Muslims in the western world were Muslims that were advocates of sharia law. So yes, Muslims that want to implement sharia law are for the bombings, but that's hardly speaking of Islam in and of itself, now is it?
I agree that Islam needs to reform, and that moderate Muslims need to speak out, but this reasoning is hardly indicative as to why. Better reasons include their prohibition on most all earthly pleasures to ridiculous lengths (Mormons are included in this), their treatment of women, their view on dying for Allah, etc.

Thread:

How the hell did this turn into a Christian bashing topic? If there's any religion (though most of them deserve) that deserves the utmost bashing it's Islam. Just how many Islam nations constantly violate human rights?

As far as countries controlled by radical Islam, you're right; but Christianity is far from innocent even domestically; see the Catholic Church rape scandals, or the numerous "moderate" Christians protesting outside abortion clinics, shaming abortion receivers, trying to limit access to birth control..

(let it be known, though, that I do agree with you that it's odd nobody mentioning native born terrorists)

It's a PR tactic. If they actually wanted to get things done they'd cooperate with Russia and Assad's regime. The French and the other Western nations involved in this have been bombing Raqqa for the last few years. These operations in Raqqa have done little to no effect in regards to weakening ISIL's military strength; in fact within that time period, ISIL's military strength in Syria has actually GROWN. Isn't that proof enough that airstrikes in Raqqa alone won't do anything? The coalition between the Turks, Syria, and Russia have achieved far more progress in one month than the west has in the last 4 years

Again, I agree here, but I think part of it is also trying to send a message to ISIS/ISIL showing that France is capable of defending itself, hence why they did specifically as France and as nobody else.
Granted, I don't think it's a smart move, but I can kind of see the motives behind it.

Airstrikes alone won't solve anything; the Russians at least understand that.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-increases-syria-airstrikes-381989
^That link actually isn't working for me. I'll see if I can fix it in a minute.
But this isn't only in wake of Paris. There are a couple of articles from early October saying the same.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34496583

[rubinsteinmad]

If there's any religion (though most of them deserve) that deserves the utmost bashing it's Islam. Just how many Islam nations constantly violate human rights?

Well, that wouldn't happen if Israel wasn't taken over again by the Western Powers.

And now some of the Middle-Eastern countries think that the US is trying to cause violence between the Jews and the Muslims. (The behind-the-curtain US isn't exactly a pro-Semitic country.)



Think about if the Jewish settled in Harbin, China, in large numbers. The Chinese (Manchus) living there wouldn't be so happy, would they? After 1945, many of the Jewish people in China moved to the West. However, if they stayed and the Jewish population grew, perhaps Northern China would be like the Middle East today; you might say that the Buddhists need a bashing.

So its not really fair to say that Islam is the religion that needs the most spanking. (I believe that atheism could use a spanking, but that's just me.)

[ahinton]

[deleted]

[mjames]

Granted, I don't think it's a smart move, but I can kind of see the motives behind it.https://www.newsweek.com/russia-increases-syria-airstrikes-381989
^That link actually isn't working for me. I'll see if I can fix it in a minute.
But this isn't only in wake of Paris. There are a couple of articles from early October saying the same.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34496583

The difference between Russian airstrikes and French ones is that Russia is cooperating with Syrian and Turkish secret agencies. These are airstrikes are doing a lot more than just ineffectively carpet bombing Raqqa. The Syrian forces have actually managed to regain several territories since the Russians began intervening.

I AGREE, civilian deaths SUCK. That's why Im much more in favor of a ground force coalition.

[mjames]

So its not really fair to say that Islam is the religion that needs the most spanking. (I believe that atheism could use a spanking, but that's just me.)

No it is. You don't hear about Buddhist or Jewish extremists terrorizing cities in Australia, almost half of Africa, in North America, and in Europe. You just don't. I get it, most religions have their fair share of extremists but the largest and most influential terrorist groups in the world are Islamic groups.

[tenk]

Relevant, and well worth a watch if you haven't seen it.