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Pray for Paris (Read 2680 times)

Offline swagmaster420x

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Pray for Paris
« on: November 14, 2015, 05:09:41 AM »
What happened is horrifying, saddening, and frightening.

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #1 on: November 14, 2015, 05:17:00 AM »
I have been praying for them all afternoon. It's terrible. Stock up on your guns, knives, and martial arts, everyone. They're headed for the U.S.!
and....i'm on youtube!
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #2 on: November 14, 2015, 07:51:58 AM »
Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

Some good might come out of this if it means the end of free movement in Europe.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #3 on: November 14, 2015, 07:56:11 AM »
Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

This... up above - that explanation... is why I'm an atheist.

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #4 on: November 14, 2015, 07:59:28 AM »
Stock up on your guns, knives, and martial arts, everyone. They're headed for the U.S.!
Is this serious?

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #5 on: November 14, 2015, 08:12:10 AM »
Pray?  To whose god?
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #6 on: November 14, 2015, 08:36:04 AM »
This... up above - that explanation... is why I'm an atheist.

If I am not already one, I appear to be heading in that direction.

Thal
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Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #7 on: November 14, 2015, 08:42:35 AM »
Thal's right.  Imaginary friends that got us into this mess in the first place!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #8 on: November 14, 2015, 01:33:13 PM »
Wringing of hands -- or, if you are religiously inclined, which some of you aren't, prayer -- isn't going to get anywhere with this lot.  Any more than it did with Herr Hitler some years back (you younger folks may not remember him) or any of the other individuals and groups who have tried throughout human history -- often successfully for at least a time -- to take over other people.

"Oh please don't do that, it's not nice" doesn't help much.

We have a saying: Freedom isn't free.  The price of freedom is strength and eternal vigilance.  Nothing else will do.

Semper Fi, my friends.
Ian

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 02:33:07 PM »
Just like an atheist. No sympathy for them, eh, Thal?
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 03:28:59 PM »
What a stupid thing to say. Do you honestly think compassion is limited to Christians??.

You really are a silly little boy.

Thal
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Offline mjames

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #11 on: November 14, 2015, 03:34:43 PM »
Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

Some good might come out of this if it means the end of free movement in Europe.

Thal

It might look like just religious motivation on the surface, but it goes way deeper than that. Numerous Western powers (including France) have been conducting military interventions in their (middle easterners) region for decades now.

The invasion of Iraq, and intervention in Libya under false pretenses are famous examples. It's quite selfish, naive, and egotistical that Westerners are surprised by events like these. This is blowback from all the meddling we do in the middle east and since they can't stand up to you guys in a ground battle, they resort to tactics like these. Though of course the involvement of the West doesn't diminish their responsibility and savagery, it certainly helps if we take it to consideration. These regions have been ravaged by constant proxy warfare for decades, so its no surprising that extremism is on the rise.


The intention of these terrorist attacks are to create a further divide between the West and the Islamic world. These terrorists want Westerners to further marginalize and discriminate against Muslims in order to make Western and foreign Muslims more susceptible to radical ideology. Clearly their plan is working considering the amount of xenophobia circulating Europe at the moment.

It's a *** shame, the world's going to sh*t.




Offline iansinclair

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 04:32:38 PM »
You know, mjames, I would really like to agree with you, with the unspoken thought that if only the Western powers would get out of the middle east all this would stop and everything would be roses and soft music.

I'm sorry, but perhaps I know too much history to be able to.  Whatever slice of history or prehistory you look at, you will find that (expect for brief periods when there was one truly powerful group which enforced peace -- sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't) there was always a group A which wanted to dominate a group B.  Sometimes there were several of these going on at once.  Sometimes group A is motivated by a religious drive.  More often, group A is motivated by the simple human desire to dominate (sometimes masked in a philosophic or religious guise, sometimes not).

(Some of the brief periods to which I refer might be the Babylonian Empire under Xerxes.  Some periods of the Egyptian pharaohs.  Alexander the Great.  Some periods in Chinese history.  The Roman Empire under Augustus.  I agree many of these aren't global by our modern standards, but they were global by the standards of the times, which is what counts.  More modern periods have been shorter -- the British Empire under Victoria, the period immediately following World War II under Eisenhower).

However, to get back to the point -- if you are in group B, it does no good at all to enquire into the motivation of group A, nor does it do any good to try to appease group A by appeasement (ask Sir Neville Chamberlain) or by profuse apology for real or imagined past actions.  No.  If you are in group B, and you wish to maintain your freedom, you must be ready, willing, and able to defend it.

Just at the moment our cosy safe Western way of going is a group B, and there are actually two group A's, though only one is militarily really active at the moment.  And that one of those group A's perceives that our happy little group B is neither ready, willing, nor able to defend itself.

When you go to bed tonight, or to the cafe, or to practice, or whatever, safe from harm, give a moment's thought to the men and women of the western world who go in harm's way to protect and preserve your way of life.
Ian

Offline ahinton

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 04:33:50 PM »
Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

Some good might come out of this if it means the end of free movement in Europe.
Are you serious? Has it not occurred to you that severe curtailment of "free movement" - and not only to, from and within Europe - is just one of the many disruptive aims of the nutters who carry out such atrocities? The more that they can achieve such goals by means of their terrorist activities, the more they get to control how European nations and their citizens are permitted to conduct themselves - and that includes you and me.

Should such activities develop sufficiently in sufficient numbers of countries, borders might not only be closed around those countries but also be created within them; no more free movement between London and Birmingham, for example.

And when you remember that the imposition of such restrictions would (a) have no impact in UK upon any immigrants already living there other than to prevent them from leaving and (b) prevent any British citizen with a right of abode in Britain but who currently resides elsewhere from returning to Britain, it would surely become apparent that such restrictions can only penalise and inconvenience innocent parties.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline lhb_

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 04:38:47 PM »
And of course the retarded news stations are milking this for all it's worth, which will only help spread the animosity against Muslims

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #15 on: November 14, 2015, 06:23:24 PM »

I prayed last night. It was just too sad not to pray.
But still, I don't like how our culture is blaming the Muslims for all of this.
(Actually, we've been provoking the Muslims for decades.)



Its kind of unfair; It could be that the terrorists are uyghurs.

Uyghurs only account for a small percent of Muslims; however, most of the terror attacks are conducted by the Uygurs and their close neighbors. The Uyghurswho live in the Xinjiang province of China. However, the increasing population density in Eastern China has caused some Chinese people to move into that area, which the Uyghurs claim is theirs and only theirs. As a result, Uyghurs have displayed violence towards the Far Easterns.

The reason I think that the terrorists may be Uyghur is the fact that they shot in a Cambodian restaurant. There are so many restaraunts in Paris, so why the hate against Cambodians? (The Camboadians immigrants are possibly descended from the Chinese. Also, Cambodia is a place in Far East Asia. )
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #16 on: November 14, 2015, 06:34:22 PM »


And when you remember that the imposition of such restrictions would (a) have no impact in UK upon any immigrants already living there other than to prevent them from leaving

Indeed this is a problem and our imbecile government should be encouraging resident nutters to leave for Syria, not try stop them.

Despite what you say, the freedom of movement is doomed as rightfully concerned Countries do what they can to arrest the invasion of migrants. Hopefully, the European Union and its unelected group of crooks and failures will follow.

Thal
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Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #17 on: November 14, 2015, 06:34:47 PM »
Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

Some good might come out of this if it means the end of free movement in Europe.

Thal

*rolls eyes at stupidity


But hey- what can you expect of someone who prefers the Padarweski over the Grieg Concerto?  ::)
Some Quotes about Me:

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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #18 on: November 14, 2015, 06:49:19 PM »
Me stupid??. How about your silly imaginary friend that did nothing whilst his followers were being killed.

You are retarded.

Thal
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Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 06:53:48 PM »
Me stupid??. How about your silly imaginary friend that did nothing whilst his followers were being killed.

You are retarded.

Thal

At least I can do my arithmetics.
Some Quotes about Me:

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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #20 on: November 14, 2015, 06:58:59 PM »
Well, praise the Lord for that.
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Offline ahinton

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #21 on: November 14, 2015, 07:27:58 PM »
Indeed this is a problem and our imbecile government should be encouraging resident nutters to leave for Syria, not try stop them.
I'm by no means an apologist for the current UK government but has it not occurred to you that their efforts to stop "resident nutters" going to Syria is based on the fear of what they might bring back?

Despite what you say, the freedom of movement is doomed as rightfully concerned Countries do what they can to arrest the invasion of migrants. Hopefully, the European Union and its unelected group of crooks and failures will follow.
The migrant issue is largely unrelated. Have you thought of the possibility that millions of people from many African countries - or from Russia or elsewhere - who are for the most part unconnected with events in the Middle East want to come to Europe? And have you thought about the consequences for Britain should even as many as 10% of those British citizens entitled to live in Britain but who do not currently do so deciding to up sticks and return?

Restricting freedom of movement between countries on the kind of scale that you appear to advocate requires not only immense effort but large numbers of people to police it and large amounts of money to try to ensure it. Would you really nevertheless advocate the tightest of border controls not only between all EU countries but between all borders between EU and non-EU states? And would you then go farther and impose such controls between the countries that comprise UK? Given that terrorism is partially home-grown in whichever country it occurs, where might such border control impositions be expected to end? - sealing off Manchester and Birmingham from the rest of England or Glasgow and Dundee from the rest of Scotland? And what of Cheltenham, home of GCHQ or indeed Hereford, home to some of SAS? And what good would that do in any case if terrorist attacks in Leeds or Newcastle could henceforward be committed only by those who live there?

What's happened in Paris has not been perpetrated by Muslim nutters; it is a hate crime that knows no religious or other boundaries and, after all, there is a higher proportion of Muslims in France than in any other EU nation and those Muslims are almost all as horrified at last night's events as is anyone else. Yes, IS units groom and train people to commit acts of terrorism, but neither the grooming nor the training not the subsequent commission of those hate crimes is done in the name of Islam.

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Alistair
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Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #22 on: November 14, 2015, 07:42:36 PM »
Doesn't it spook you that this kind of **** calamity can happen anywhere, at any time! possible to you and everyone to know??? Because of just a few ***** fanatics/****ed up individuals?

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #23 on: November 14, 2015, 08:02:36 PM »
What a stupid thing to say. Do you honestly think compassion is limited to Christians??.

Well, when this is your post (full of anger about God and not mentioning the victims once), I don't really feel much compassion. What a stupid thing for you to say.

Nice for you to pray for them, but it is a shame your God was not around to help when the attacks were actually happening.

Anyway, these attacks were probably carried out by religious nutters who no doubt think their imaginary friend is superior to others.

and....i'm on youtube!
youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano

Offline lhb_

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 08:32:03 PM »
But hey- what can you expect of someone who prefers the Padarweski over the Grieg Concerto?  ::)

Stop shrinking text. It's annoying to zoom in to read what you're saying, not to mention makes you look like a pussy.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #25 on: November 14, 2015, 09:17:09 PM »
Doesn't it spook you that this kind of **** calamity can happen anywhere, at any time! possible to you and everyone to know??? Because of just a few ***** fanatics/****ed up individuals?
I don't know who - if indeed anyone in particular - you are seeking to address here but, yes, this kind of event can undoubtedly occur anywhere at any time regardless of border control or any other security measures that anyone might try to implement and, as it can, it sadly almost certainly will; larage cities will inevitably be the more likely targets (as indeed they already have been - consider New York, Madrid, Mumbai, Paris, London &c.), but who's to say that such events might not occur on a proportionately smaller scale in tiny villages in France, UK, Germany, Italy, Spain or indeed anywhere? If someone has sufficent hate allied to technical resources and appropriate planning disciplines in order to bring it to practical fruition, it will happen whatever any government, national or local or any small-scale pressure groups might try to do to prevent it. That's not to say that vigilant action and preparation should not be considered - just to point out that the terrorists might be able to get you in the end anyway, regardless of who might have done what in the hope of protecting anyone from such action.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #26 on: November 14, 2015, 09:41:06 PM »
Well, when this is your post (full of anger about God and not mentioning the victims once), I don't really feel much compassion. What a stupid thing for you to say.
On the contraty; what Thal wrote was
"Do you honestly think compassion is limited to Christians??"
Well - do you? And is it? You carefully avoided addressing such questions.

The point here (as if anyone needed to be reminded) is that this act of terrorism has not been committed by a bunch of religious nutters but by an organised group of people whose principal motivation is hatred, not Islam, Christianity or any other religious persuasion and, as such, it is arguably even more dangerous than it might have been had it really been carried out by a bunch of religious nutters. Why? Because it's accordingly much harder to identify and prosecute the culprits who have in any case mostly killed themselves and only one has been killed by the French police, so no one will ever appear in Court as a defendant in respect of what happened.

To clear Thal's point, compassion is not limited to any particular group - mercifully; coincidentally, like acts of terrorism, it is capable of manifesting itself anywhere.

Best,

Alistair
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Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #27 on: November 14, 2015, 10:19:52 PM »
I'm by no means an apologist for the current UK government but has it not occurred to you that their efforts to stop "resident nutters" going to Syria is based on the fear of what they might bring back?


I really wish you would keep your posts to something slightly less than War & Peace.

The imbecile UK government have powers to strip many of our resident nutters of their citizenship and could prevent them from re-entering the Country. However, they appear to lack the balls to do this and thankfully, many who have left to fight for IS appear to have been killed and hopefully this will continue.

I can only think you read The Guardian if you think that the migrant issue is largely unrelated to terrorist activity. Two of the men currently being investigated by French Police had registered in Greece as Syrian refugees.

Thal

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Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #28 on: November 14, 2015, 10:32:40 PM »
It might look like just religious motivation on the surface, but it goes way deeper than that. Numerous Western powers (including France) have been conducting military interventions in their (middle easterners) region for decades now.

The invasion of Iraq, and intervention in Libya under false pretenses are famous examples. It's quite selfish, naive, and egotistical that Westerners are surprised by events like these. This is blowback from all the meddling we do in the middle east and since they can't stand up to you guys in a ground battle, they resort to tactics like these. Though of course the involvement of the West doesn't diminish their responsibility and savagery, it certainly helps if we take it to consideration. These regions have been ravaged by constant proxy warfare for decades, so its no surprising that extremism is on the rise.


The intention of these terrorist attacks are to create a further divide between the West and the Islamic world. These terrorists want Westerners to further marginalize and discriminate against Muslims in order to make Western and foreign Muslims more susceptible to radical ideology. Clearly their plan is working considering the amount of xenophobia circulating Europe at the moment.

It's a *** shame, the world's going to sh*t.

I dont think you have interpreted correctly. These kind of acts are caused by diabolical mentally ill people. Has nothing to do with Muslim vs West. Although that is the rhetoric by the maniacs and the news media. I hear the news saying it was so sophisticated, but if they are so sophisticated, why just kill unarmed  civilians ?  Why not take out the communications infrastructure or armed defenses ?  No different than Hitler bombing downtown London in WWII. No different than a gunman killing kids at school.  It is awful and heartbreaking, but finger-pointing gets nowhere.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 12:04:27 AM »
I have been praying for them all afternoon. It's terrible. Stock up on your guns, knives, and martial arts, everyone. They're headed for the U.S.!

Noah---no more "Doomsday Preppers" for you... switch over to Nick at Night and watch Bob Newhart--much better show..  :)

I miss the cold war..  somehow the Soviets just don't seem so bad now. 

Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #30 on: November 15, 2015, 12:06:05 AM »
Noah---no more "Doomsday Preppers" for you... switch over to Nick at Night and watch Bob Newhart--much better show..  :)

I miss the cold war..  somehow the Soviets just don't seem so bad now. 

Russia had the best pianists <3333333

(That's much of what I know about the Cold War lol)
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   - DrKlara Andbroms

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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #31 on: November 15, 2015, 12:27:23 AM »
Alistair, of course compassion isn't limited to Christians. Gosh. @DC I don't watch TV LOL :)
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youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #32 on: November 15, 2015, 01:13:26 AM »
I have been praying for them all afternoon. It's terrible.
Or how about we don't pray for them and actually DO something for them?
Quote
Stock up on your guns, knives, and martial arts, everyone. They're headed for the U.S.!
Matthew 5:39 reads:
"But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."
I thought you were the Christian here?
That aside, I'll be training as hard as ever with my fellow judokas.. But if you really think muslim terrorists have a chance here, you need to get out more. ISIS isn't a serious threat to the US, no matter how much we love to pretend they are to go in and bomb them and conveniently grab some oil on the way out.
Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #33 on: November 15, 2015, 02:37:24 AM »
Chopinlover, I know you're a smart guy, but.... that last post you made was completely stupid.
and....i'm on youtube!
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #34 on: November 15, 2015, 02:39:46 AM »
Care to make an argument as to why?
Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 03:04:33 AM »
Care to make an argument as to why?

Gladly :) What do you think Matthew 5:39 means?
and....i'm on youtube!
youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 03:12:00 AM »
I believe it means to be non-violent, even when someone is hurting you.
Now, that's in the context of self defense. You could be a little more esoteric and apply it to life in general, in which case it means something like "even when life throws hardships at you, don't get bitter, just keep going on".
But I'd have to wonder if that liberal interpretation would come about if the "pro Jesus" political party didn't love guns so much..
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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 03:21:35 AM »
I believe it means to be non-violent, even when someone is hurting you.

That's what I thought. Read Matthew 5:38-42 now, then tell me what you think it means.
and....i'm on youtube!
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Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #38 on: November 15, 2015, 05:43:43 AM »
We agree, then- it means you shouldn't
Stock up on your guns, knives, and martial arts, everyone. They're headed for the U.S.!
Jazz Ambassador 8)

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 09:20:32 AM »
That's what I thought. Read Matthew 5:38-42 now, then tell me what you think it means.
It means give into all the terrorists' demands; Fund their carnage and destruction if possible

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 01:08:50 PM »
That's what I thought. Read Matthew 5:38-42 now, then tell me what you think it means.

Why should we waste our time looking at an outdated, archaic, antiquated book that has nothing to offer humanity other than false hopes and bad sermons?

Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 02:20:08 PM »
Then none of you can say what you think Matthew 5:39 means if you are too busy to

waste our time looking at an outdated, archaic, antiquated book that has nothing to offer humanity
and....i'm on youtube!
youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano

Offline hardy_practice

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 02:45:51 PM »
Why should we waste our time looking at an outdated, archaic, antiquated book that has nothing to offer humanity other than false hopes and bad sermons?
Yeh.  This is the book for us!



Oh wait a minute, this has false hopes and bad sermons too!?  Still, at least it's a newer book!
B Mus, PGCE, DipABRSM

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 05:13:36 PM »
Then none of you can say what you think Matthew 5:39 means if you are too busy to


Matthew 5:39 is, taken by itself, a difficult chapter to manage, but it is only one part of a whole long discussion on charity.  I would be happy, if I thought you were a practicing Christian, to have a discussion with you concerning it, and Jesus' teachings on that sort of thing, but it can't happen over the internet.  I would mention that one can be subject to serious error if one concentrates solely on one verse or another.  For that matter, if you are not a practicing Christian, I would be happy to have a long discussion on Christianity -- but it would be very long indeed, and surely cannot happen over the internet!

It is not that I don't have the time to discuss it, nor that I am too busy.  I am simply very aware of what is, and what is not, possible.
Ian

Offline minor9th

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #44 on: November 15, 2015, 05:46:04 PM »

Offline swagmaster420x

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #45 on: November 15, 2015, 07:44:23 PM »
Is Matthew 5:39 even relevant to terrorism

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 01:10:56 AM »
It was relevant to P3s response, where he said to stock up on weapons because they're coming for the US (which they aren't). I responded by showing him a biblical passage condemning violence of any kind, even in self defense.
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Offline pencilart3

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 01:29:56 AM »
It was relevant to P3s response, where he said to stock up on weapons because they're coming for the US (which they aren't). I responded by showing him a biblical passage condemning violence of any kind, even in self defense.

Well how can you say that, when you don't have time to really research outdated, archaic, antiquated books? Let me ask you a question. Do you think "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" applies only to eyes and teeth? What do you think that quote means?
and....i'm on youtube!
youtube.com/noahjohnsonpiano

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 02:00:34 AM »
Oh dear.  Well, I suppose that I could dig out one of my old sermons on the general subject of violence.  It would be from a Christian point of view, but it is worth noting that similar texts and thinking are found in both Judaic and Muslim scripture and teaching.

First, murder is condemned by all.  Take that as it may be.  In earlier times, generally capital crimes of this sort were treated by the "eye for an eye" etc. statement.  Now not so much; whether this is good or bad is up to the individual and the society to examine.

Second, violence is regarded as being wrong, in general.  However, and this is a very important however, it is pardonable provided it is not accompanied by malice.  That doesn't make it right, any more than any one of a wide variety of other transgressions are right, but it does make it pardonable.  Throughout history all of these major religions have made provision, under this definition, for a person to defend himself or herself or his or her community, should they choose to do so, with the hope of pardon and forgiveness.

What constitutes pardonable defence is very much a sliding scale, with various groups within the major religions having various views and interpretations, ranging from no defence is ever permissible to a pretty loose interpretation.

There is one major point on which there is agreement, though: a decision to forego violence in defence must be personal, and must NOT place any other individual in harm's way.  Specifically, an individual's decision to forego violence must never be predicated on an assumption -- either explicit or implicit -- that someone else is going to go out there and protect the individual.  The reason for this is that their choice of inaction, and hiding behind the action of another, places that second individual in a position of being harmed, and thus is precisely equal to intentionally harming that second person -- in fact, harming with malice.

All this is not a trivial subject -- and particularly, it is one which is ill-served by selective readings, either of scripture or of any other source.

Frankly, I'm not sure -- now that I've typed this -- that there is much point in my having done so, but I keep some hope that some of the commentators above may read it and think on the complexities, and not become trapped by simplistic answers.

Sincerely, Brother Ian (oB)
Ian

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Pray for Paris
«Reply #49 on: November 16, 2015, 03:04:36 AM »

Me playing a very sad French song... Les Feuilles Mortes

Autumn Leaves