Advice on Chopin Butterfly Etude?

[briansaddleback]

Hey everyone, I have been moderately into the etudes this whole year (helped me tremendously in a few distinct areas), and after delivering a somewhat decent performance of a couple of them in class for finals, now I am sort of in relax mode and learning other slower pieces during this winter break..but to not ignore the etudes entirely , I decided to pick up one of the 'way easier' ones as depicted by many a internetz people (fwiw, no one in person or even music teachers have exclaimed any of them being easy, but all as difficult to learn and refine for performance).

So I chose op25 no9 about a month ago, and I want to learn this the correct way, so , the articulation of it is to accent the first note of every figurine, held through to the second note which is a sixteenth and then lightly staccatoed for the two octaves. This causes a lot of difficulty for me and although slowly I can play it that way, but at any slightly faster speed that respect to that articulation disappears.
Also, this piece surprisingly requires me to have more stamina than any of the other 'harder ' etudes has required of me such as 10-4 or 10-12 or 10-2.
They are all relentless in their mechanics but the figurines for the butterfly somehow is more incessant for my hands and it gets real sloppy for me to keep practicing it for more than any thing over twenty minutes.

This is truly a difficult piece. Not notes per se. But everything else about it.

What is your experience with this for those who have got it to a personal goal level? I think maybe I should work on octaves scales or such as this piece is very similar to it. and my hand can barely accurately hit an octave (on white keys only) without smudging the seventh.. yes, my hands are small compared to most men. bleh

[briansaddleback]

"Keep practicing"...


OK thanks man!

[adodd81802]

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[briansaddleback]

Yes 25-2 is definitely easier from many angles. I have worked on that one last year a bit and fully memorized the right hand bit but as I tried to learn the left hand (easier sure) and incorporate it I fully lost interest in that etude. The melody and charm of it faded, I'll return to it in some time in the future though.

I am not particularly trying to learn the etudes in any order of difficulty but just more so in a manner of what piques my interest at that time. The butterfly etude really grew on me and am still having mass difficulties in getting it any faster than how Rachmaninov practiced thirds etudes at a speed unrecognizable.

[adodd81802]

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[briansaddleback]

I believe there's also an Chopin etude on 3rds?

I think mastering 3rds is quite a high level skill, and requires good hand rotation.

Yes. Chopin Opus 25 No 6. Thirds etude. It is the one I was referring to. The story goes, Rachmaninov was practicing this etude very very slowly, to the point where the author had no idea what he was practicing. (The moral of the story was to play and practice slow).

[chopinlover01]

The key to this study is to keep the wrist flexible and light. Make sure you're using lots of rotation, and never have any tension in your wrist.
Personally, I'd rotate to the thumb on the first notes, and "hop" on the octaves, if you know what I'm saying.

[briansaddleback]

Thanks yes i hear you, I have been hopping ever so lightly on the octaves and watching my wrist. This piece requires more stamina in that movement  and bc my hands are small , when I hold out an octave (especially on white key) I have to strain somewhat to expanse my hands like that so for the course of the whole piece, there is considerable strain throughout my whole right hand area.

As others have been documenting their progress on a certain piece, I will do so with this.

Progress has been not good. But ggood for a turtle. But at the slow slow tempo, I do have a good correct musical play of it, not sure technique  but musically it is sound.

[anamnesis]

Hey everyone, I have been moderately into the etudes this whole year (helped me tremendously in a few distinct areas), and after delivering a somewhat decent performance of a couple of them in class for finals, now I am sort of in relax mode and learning other slower pieces during this winter break..but to not ignore the etudes entirely , I decided to pick up one of the 'way easier' ones as depicted by many a internetz people (fwiw, no one in person or even music teachers have exclaimed any of them being easy, but all as difficult to learn and refine for performance).

So I chose op25 no9 about a month ago, and I want to learn this the correct way, so , the articulation of it is to accent the first note of every figurine, held through to the second note which is a sixteenth and then lightly staccatoed for the two octaves. This causes a lot of difficulty for me and although slowly I can play it that way, but at any slightly faster speed that respect to that articulation disappears.
Also, this piece surprisingly requires me to have more stamina than any of the other 'harder ' etudes has required of me such as 10-4 or 10-12 or 10-2.
They are all relentless in their mechanics but the figurines for the butterfly somehow is more incessant for my hands and it gets real sloppy for me to keep practicing it for more than any thing over twenty minutes.

This is truly a difficult piece. Not notes per se. But everything else about it.

What is your experience with this for those who have got it to a personal goal level? I think maybe I should work on octaves scales or such as this piece is very similar to it. and my hand can barely accurately hit an octave (on white keys only) without smudging the seventh.. yes, my hands are small compared to most men. bleh

Abby Whiteside has a brief blurb in her first book on this that only consists of a single sentence, but I believe her brief analysis is right:

Illustration 4 (Chopin, Etude, Op. 25, No. 9) is a pattern showing one flexion of forearm covering two articulations by the hand (two middle 16ths) and one extension of forearm is divided between the fourth and the first 16ths of the group.

It only makes sense though if you understand her alternating action technique, or actually her whole approach.  

Work on a rhythmic outline of the piece just using the first and last sixteenth notes of each figure to feel the overall dance of the piece.  

Then add in the third note.  Then add the second note.  The second and third notes are grouped together in a single unified grab, but prioritizing the third in your ear helps keep things moving forward rather than held back. 

[briansaddleback]

Sounds like good advice I will try that thanks.

[briansaddleback]

Another thing that has occurred to me recently is that the sort of relentless (all the etudes are relentless somewhat) in the manner of octaves reminds me of the Scott Joplin pieces I used to play. I could never really perform the Joplin at a sustained higher tempo throughout without getting sloppy at the end due to the relentlessness of the chords and octaves but also it was hard for me to memorize the Joplin pieces for some reason even though I could memorize other classical pieces.
This etude is sort of the same way.

[anamnesis]

Another thing that has occurred to me recently is that the sort of relentless (all the etudes are relentless somewhat) in the manner of octaves reminds me of the Scott Joplin pieces I used to play. I could never really perform the Joplin at a sustained higher tempo throughout without getting sloppy at the end due to the relentlessness of the chords and octaves but also it was hard for me to memorize the Joplin pieces for some reason even though I could memorize other classical pieces.
This etude is sort of the same way.

Outlining can be used to handle the relentless flow of fast works as they allow you to feel and be enraptured with the "slow" underneath the fast.

The fast, "superficial details"  are absorbed and always subservient to underlying slow structure.

A bit like Schenkerian analysis, except you are trying to create a literal physical counterpart with your overall body rhythm.

I must be held with same respect as the full work, not lesser, and trained toward a performance as well. 

In fact, although similar to a telegram where you take a complete statement and remove all the extra modifiers.  It is quite different in effect.  The telegram loses the grace and flow of the full sentence, whereas an outline is used to intensify the awareness of the grace in relationship of the important tones of the music. 

The details are absorbed in by fully understanding the spacing of tones and how everything fits in. 

In terms of memorization, the advantages of the above procedure should be quite obvious.  Other things that will help is taking the time to actually study the tonal structure and actually being able to audiate that, not merely letting it be a paper exercise. 

Any troubling passages as you learn the details usually results from relying on muscle memory and not your ear. Fixed-solfege (chromatic in particular) is the most efficient way to connect audiation, theory, and just flat out knowing the notes on the page.  If you've never tried fixed-solfege before, you simply haven't exhausted the tools for memorization. 

[briansaddleback]

No real improvement , also sort of depressed all my practice past couple of weeks have amounted to not too much. I don't feel any improvement, perhaps a worsening. I am going to put down piano a bit maybe a few days and return to it. Maybe my nerve synapses need to make new connections. Going to work on classical guitar instead ! Can't wait my intro to guitar starts thursday and have been obsessed over the last few days on trying to find the best guitar (for my price point).