Another Self-Study Thread. Different circumstances

[ulven87]

Hello peeps,

I have been playing the piano for 2 weeks now and using the Alfred's All-In-One adult books, but I am awaiting the Fundamental Keys book in the post, original version. I have 14 years of experience playing bass guitar, with 3 years of formal training at college, but mostly I am self taught. Never had a bass teacher outside of school and used logic to find good technique, like properly arching the hand, keeping the strap at the length which would allow the bass to stay in place in the same position when standing up etc., but also researching it.

I have developed systems and methods of self-study practice for learning new topics on bass which work well and can be partially applied to piano, but I've also been reading the Fundamentals of Piano practice, a somewhat heavy but fascinating read which has given me a lot of ideas and have been reading Bernhard's experiences and advice.

I am fairly well versed in theory, and with perhaps a little revision could pass a grade 5 ABRSM exam without much trouble.

I am watching videos online about piano technique, and trying to be as careful as possible with how I use my hands to avoid bad habits, and I record what I play to determine if it is stable, in-time, dynamically correct and so on whilst also being likely my own worst critic. I observe good technique in piano players online sometimes while slowing the video down so I can get a good sense of the hand position, angles for certain points and for learning general technique. But also for enjoying some music with a productive element behind it.

Now all I want to do is play piano to a degree where I can enjoy playing some classical pieces, and get into some jazz and funk type stuff, and compose using an instrument ideal for it. I am not aiming for recitals, having a career from playing piano, or trying to reach the technical heights of Liszt.

Though a teacher would be nice, I can't afford £20 to £25 a week, especially when piano, though a nice hobby, won't be a main one. I have bass guitar, and learning Norwegian and French in those categories. Norwegian I need to focus on most as this time next year I will have just taken one of two national tests in the language which will let me study at university there and work in professions.

As someone with no history of piano, except keyboard skills class in college which I passed well in without any practice at home, do you think going for it without a teacher is a good enough idea given my history of musical experience, and situation or would you say having a teacher and a second opinion is more or less essential to being a decent pianist?

I'd especially like to hear from people who taught themselves piano from scratch after having a lot of musical experience, and preferably with some formal training as well in that instrument.

Thanks a lot everyone.

Ulven.

[reiyza]

Still a teacher would be best, I have been also playing the bass for 5 years(Metal, Rock, Funk) without the proper teacher and little knowledge of scales pertaining to the bass guitar, (though I know the basic chords and I play by rote), though I think I developed poor bad habits when playing the bass, (shoulder pains, wrist pain etc.) so as much as possible I'd go for a teacher.

I have not experienced using piano course books, or maybe I did, I can't remember since I have a teacher when I started out(and thank god, I learned so much). Maybe you could go for simpler classical pieces if you're a good sight reader. If you're going for advanced piece(s), a teacher is highly recommended, some technique can't be taught through reading, sometimes it has to be demonstrated in real-time, because some movements are too fast or too subtle to be identified through videos properly.

If there are financial constraints, hey, you're a musician too, maybe you have friends that has a real good background in piano playing, you could kindly ask for advice.

Since you're self studying, Be careful on forming bad habits that can be hard to undo when you decide to go for a real teacher. After all. The bass and the Piano are two different beasts.! (which both are very hard to play IMO).

[ulven87]

Hi Reiyza, thanks for the reply.

You can still learn bass without formal teaching. Though I did study at college for 3 years, mainly I learned from videos, books, learning by ear and reading specifically about technique and how to not harm your form from the net. I do pretty well when I'm self taught as I always thought it needed a structured approach. When at secondary school/high school, I would spend an hour learning a piece slightly out of my comfort zone, and do it in small chunks. Then spend an hour, even at a slow speed, learning something much more difficult like Jaco and Michael Manring's version of Purple Haze.

I didn't want to really bring this up because it will likely sound like I am bragging, but from being solely self taught, I won a 2nd place scholarship to the Institute of Contemporary Music Performance in London in 2005 after playing for 4 years of the back of how I taught myself.  Although I teach myself I am methodical as heck, possibly due to my slight Aspergers.

The other two years I spent at a college up near my home in Scotland, but I learned theory. I learned how to listen carefully, I learned rhythm so I have transferable skills. I would be learning the instrument as a newcomer to piano, but not to music.

Good idea about asking a friend. I know a very good pianist looking to do lessons and he also plays a bit of bass. I could teach him bass and he could teach me guitar. Only thing is the distance issue but could try Skype. Cannot afford around £100 a month on piano lessons when it won't even be my main hobby. I self-teach Norwegian and just started French and need to pass the national test in Norway in January next year so I can go do a master's degree there. Plus there are my continuing bass studies.

You are right in that the best thing I can do is get a teacher. Absolutely. Having a second opinion always helps, even when you are musically trained as I am not perfect, I am unbalanced as a musician in places and direct feedback can be invaluable. But as something I can do some pieces on, jam some jazz, and compose due to the instruments linear nature, I could do that without needing a teacher. I am not planning on attempting Liszt ever, but I would like to do some technical stuff.

It is just I managed so well on one instrument without musical knowledge or knowing how to listen and analyse and now I have those capabilities.

It is mainly down to necessity, but I think I have a chance of doing ok if I am careful and methodical, and those I definitely am. Once got tendinitis from overpractice and too much tapping constantly without hydrating enough. Then I learned how to take care of my hands and body, and practice in chunks of no more than 45 minutes without taking a break.

Btw, for bass, I recommend checking out courses from: https://www.instituteofbass.com/

Their music theory for bassists course is excellent.

I might be being foolhardy but i do want to try without a teacher. I guess though what encouraged me most was my father. He is an exceptional musician. Doesn't play piano much anymore, but he can still let rip and play great stuff with limited stamina. He told me I didn't need a teacher. The way I do things normally will do the trick. Plus i can record myself and keep listening for mistakes. I could get some lessons from him, but he is completely blind. So he could pick out my mistakes from hearing my playing but can't observe my technique to advise of corrections.

Again, a teacher is still ideal but I reckon I could manage it only because I am cautious in how I approach music, have the background in music and am not aiming to become a master player. I have tremendous respect for the piano and it is my favourite instrument. I know it is difficult to learn, and the depth to it is incredible, but with the right materials and approach, I think teaching myself is possible, but would like to hear more informed opinions before deciding. I do know it is possible, but risky.

If I ever decide to do proper classical stuff which is very fast and subtle, a teacher will be a must. But I will be extremely careful not to make bad habits. But is there anyone here with experience of self-teaching and how it went for them, and especially those with a background in another instrument, and preferably had some form of formal education before.

Oh, and reiyza, if you want resources for bass study, PM me.

[reiyza]

Yes, well I've learned stuff from other band players such as the pentatonic scales, drop down tunings three finger picking. But as of late, I am having doubts regarding my bass playing(I still love that deep tone though), so I'm giving my all into piano playing. And I still Love that Highway star bass solo sub for the keyboard solo Look it up on youtube.

Also in regards to self teaching, have you come across the poster bernhard in this forum? Usually his advice works dead-on. And sometimes in doesn't, his advices are rather useful though. Try to look them up for some advices, I am also self studying now and I have found his advices to be very very informative. here's the link

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=60495.0

If a teacher really isn't possible. You could look at the topics there, and I have stumbled upon the book of chang's fundamentals of piano practice, try looking it up if you want.

Since you aren't going serious for the piano, maybe, you'd consider a book in "What every pianist needs to know about the body by Dr. Thomas Mark" as suggested by members in this forum. It outlines where pain comes from during practice, I have read excerpts in google books and It's really good! Though, I have a health related work so I can understand most of the terms, but with some research, I think you'll do good at understanding it.

[ulven87]

I know of Bernhard's posts. I have bookmarked them from asking for advice on another forum and he has good insight. Also been reading Fundamentals of Piano Practice, what a book! Will check out that book by Thomas Mark, but I think I might just bite the bullet and find a way to budget for teaching every two weeks instead of each week.

That could work. Just need to work around my call-centre's constantly changing shifts. But at least I can look them up in advance. Mainly I will be learning from other sources, but to get my body to work right, a teacher is likely needed for piano. For bass it isn't too bad. Arch your fingers with your thumb kept mostly on the back of the neck but shift it when you get high up the neck.

Ensure your bass strap does not dangle the bass. Have the bass strap have the bass be at the same height as when sitting down. That will help so much.

Also try these two channels:

and

https://www.youtube.com/user/devinebass

From them you can learn a lot free. But if you want SERIOUS lessons dense in material go to the link I gave in my previous post. Their music theory and jazz courses are fantastic.

But anyway, I am going to find a teacher. I have another thread elsewhere and some pointed out that they had and issue they never relised which the teacher recognised would eventually give shouder pain. I can't rely on my experience for that.

But it will have to be every two weeks if I am to afford it. At least there is overtime too!

[adodd81802]

It depends what you consider to be "A decent pianist"

Sure you can probably get to a competent level of piano playing, and anybody can look decent next to a group of people that cannot actually play the piano at all..

But you are always going to benefit far greater and more efficiently being taught by somebody that really knows what they're talking about, rather than a hit and miss self study approach.

Hopefully your history with your bass may help your theory, things like Jazz I imagine require some theory to help with improv etc.

[ulven87]

I'll need to shop around, but hopefully I can find a truly good one. Considering if I form small bad habits early on, even though I've been careful and observant I could still make mistakes. I hope can find a teacher who can really drill the right physicality into me, stop any bad habits and help me with all the little subtleties of the instrument. One nice thing I suppose is the beginning stage will be relatively quick as I am already used to specialised control of all my fingers, I have stamina built in to an extent, I will likely have a reasonable left hand since it has been the focus for much of my playing on bass and guitar, I know all the basic theory and more advance theory and can certainly play in time.

But, I have no automatic coordination on the piano like I do on bass or guitar. I will need to memorise the shapes for the chords and voicings, deal with true polyphonic, and possibly later contrapuntal music. I will need to spend a lot of time to gain a true feel for the dynamics of the instrument and be able to control them at will quickly sometimes. Then of course I will need to learn how to pedal properly and not overuse it. I look forward to the journey of discovery, of learning an instrument I fell in love with at 17. The soun, the music, an how so many tunes are worlds created with just two hands but they are worlds of depth.

I will take it a day at a time, I just find it joyous playing anything on the piano that uses both hands!

I hope I will be able to afford weekly lessons but every other week may have to do for now. Would love to have them every week and see and learn my best to tame this wonderful instrument. Shame I have a digital piano. Although it is probably one of the best in its price range, you still won't get the same key response, or range in dynamics. Having a volume control IS useful though as I can practice at any time.

Anyway, thanks peeps. Look forward to seeing you around the forum.

Ulven.

[dcstudio]

But, I have no automatic coordination on the piano like I do on bass or guitar. I will need to memorise the shapes for the chords and voicings, deal with true polyphonic, and possibly later contrapuntal music.I will take it a day at a time, I just find it joyous playing anything on the piano that uses both hands!

sounds to me like you are on the right track and you will do just fine... I find it interesting that you are multi-lingual--that is a trait very common among multi-instrumentalists.

I recommend a teacher who is also a multi-instrumentalist and one who is proficient in jazz as well as traditional instruction and theory... they are very rare and hard to find but your experience pretty much demands this type of instruction.  You likely have far more performance experience than most piano teachers in your price range.   You are at a very unique place musically speaking and most standard piano teachers won't know what to do with you.   Find one that can really play like you want to play.

[ulven87]

sounds to me like you are on the right track and you will do just fine... I find it interesting that you are multi-lingual--that is a trait very common among multi-instrumentalists.

I recommend a teacher who is also a multi-instrumentalist and one who is proficient in jazz as well as traditional instruction and theory... they are very rare and hard to find but your experience pretty much demands this type of instruction.  You likely have far more performance experience than most piano teachers in your price range.   You are at a very unique place musically speaking and most standard piano teachers won't know what to do with you.   Find one that can really play like you want to play.

Thank you. I will get there in the end certainly, but I need the right instruction at the right pace.  The main road I want to go down is classical though. 75% of the time if there is piano music playing in my mind, it is classical so if I can find someone who can really teach me that, and make sure I learn the chords an music of what I am doing, get inside how it works, and work with a lot of pieces from the Romantic era onward that had more interesting chords and voicings, that would satisfy the classical itch and prepare me somewhat for jazz.

I know jazz rhythms fine, unless it is something by the likes of Hiromi Uehara who is astounding if you are unfamiliar with her. I could then get some side lessons in jazz playing and I can do some self-study for that. I have what amounts to the Bible of jazz theory I can learn from. It s like a telephone book with ring bindings! "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine.

The person you speak of sounds interesting, what instruments do they play. Where are they based? Can't afford to go far afield. Don't drive. Always used public transport or walking growing up but Glasgow is good for that. I am contacting two teachers who might be able to help, have a fair amount of experience and seem to be flexible.

Will be interesting to see what the plan of action would be, materials I'd need. At least I can get plenty of classical stuff here and print it. I like the gold member access. But need to re-acquire a printer to make much use of them. Fine on iPad though.

Hmm, never knew there was a particular correlation or seemed to be one that multi-instrumentalists are more likely to be multi-lingual. I am half-Norwegian but only learned some stuff to get by as a kid. Only as an adult I am learning to speak properly through reading a lot and learning the vocabulary and doing the Duolingo course which is surprisingly good. Also have textbooks directly related to the test. Instructions are in Norwegian, so good to have sound basic Norwegian first to tackle advanced Norwegian. But that correlation is interesting. Perhaps it is simply about people who like to communicate emotion in different ways, like through instruments, might be more prone to wanting to communicate with more people through other means lke different languages. Useful if you tour too! But then, I wonder if more musicians speak another language than do non-musicians in a generally mono-lingual country. So if you took 10,000 trained musicians and 10,000 random adults with a tertiary education, would there be a statistically significant difference. Something to look into suppose but I am rambling. Will be speaking a potential teacher tomorrow from China. Studied in Germany and then got their master's at Scotland's most prestigious conservatoire. Could be good.

And I wrote an essay. Sorry.

[dcstudio]

The person you speak of sounds interesting, what instruments do they play. Where are they based? Can't afford to go far afield. Don't drive. Always used public transport or walking growing up but Glasgow is good for that. I am contacting two teachers who might be able to help, have a fair amount of experience and seem to be flexible.

.

I myself am trained classically and I studied jazz at UNT with Dan Haerle who is a bigtime jazz teacher... lol.   I play piano professionally and guitar onstage now and again and if I have to I sing as well. I can fake an electric but not an acoustic bass or I can walk a bass on the keyboard with my left hand.  I speak English, Spanish, a bit of German and I can call a game of Baccarat in Cantonese or Mandarin.  I have 20 years of teaching experience in both jazz and classical formats and I am a professional accompanist.

I also have a youtube account with 1.7 million views.

my jazz--with the walking bass LH

classical

singing and playing with a combo

playing the guitar

but I am from the states and you are from Glasglow so if we were to Skype we would likely not be able to understand each other's English.  lol

don't expect you to watch all of these... just making the point that people with the kind of experience you will be needing can back up their claims.   If you want to go classical that's great but your brain is not set up for traditional lessons.... you know too much already.  Find someone with a lot of performance experience and who is well-rounded musically.

[ulven87]

I myself am trained classically and I studied jazz at UNT with Dan Haerle who is a bigtime jazz teacher... lol.   I play piano professionally and guitar onstage now and again and if I have to I sing as well. I can fake an electric but not an acoustic bass or I can walk a bass on the keyboard with my left hand.  I speak English, Spanish, a bit of German and I can call a game of Baccarat in Cantonese or Mandarin.  I have 20 years of teaching experience in both jazz and classical formats and I am a professional accompanist.

I also have a youtube account with 1.7 million views.

my jazz--with the walking bass LH

classical

singing and playing with a combo

playing the guitar

but I am from the states and you are from Glasglow so if we were to Skype we would likely not be able to understand each other's English.  lol

don't expect you to watch all of these... just making the point that people with the kind of experience you will be needing can back up their claims.   If you want to go classical that's great but your brain is not set up for traditional lessons.... you know too much already.  Find someone with a lot of performance experience and who is well-rounded musically.

That I Got Rhythm version swung very nicely in places for an impromptu party version.

 Ha ha. I can see you were rushed into doing the Beethoven, but that movement's no picnic!

Ach, we'd understand each other "nae bother", as we say here in Glasgow, or rather, no bother/problem.

I speak pretty much like I write. And from having been to Norway so many times and end up speaking English, usually because the Norwegian's English makes my Norwegian look like a 2 year old's, I'm stuck sounding like I should have been a newsreader for BBC Scotland. :p

If you walked into a rough bar here though, you'd swear they were speaking another language beyond drunkese. Glaswegian drunkese is a sound to behold. Boundaries between words become meaningless. "Ahwuzjuztryintaenaw [insert pause] whitwuzadaeinagain?"

Ooh, nice singing btw. Enjoyed that.

Yeah, you certainly got experience and the right judgement in saying I can't do traditional lessons, but there must be a way we can figure out how to get me doing classical in an unorthodox way. I will be discussing all this with the teacher in the morning. Already after half past midnight as I type right now.

I will be getting the Fundamental Keys book (original) by Rachel Iris Jimenez tomorrow. Supposedly an excellent basis for learning classical. I could use that, go through and skip useless pages, do stuff like practice my scales and arpeggios since don't know the patterns yet and been sticking to my book. Playing Jingle Bells over a month too late.

Supposedly, if you have never learned an instrument or any music before, the average it takes is estimated to be around four years to reach the final piece which is only the second piece of a set of etudes by Burgmuller that get harder as you go through the book.

Considering the advantages I have over a beginner, could possibly get that cut to 6 months. Now I will need extra practice to make sure my reading keeps up, so extra drills will be done on that front.

I do mainly want to play piano for classical so that is getting done, but we'll need a teacher who can figure out a way or allow me to choose how I want it done and for them to go "Ok, boss."

But they definitely need performance training and practice in more than just classical and the pieces for the ABRSM Grade exams. Will want to kick out at least a blues jam every once in a while first with critique, and then jazz jams and meld it with the classical. Supposedly the teacher I am going to speak to will teach people according to their personality and to what their needs are. So hopefully she will meet my needs. I am sure most piano teachers get some idiot like me who plays another instrument until they're 28  and has already had some college training and goes, "Feck it. I should really start piano."

Certainly gotta milk the lessons in Scotland while I can. September 2017 I hope to have emigrate to Norway and make good use of my dual citizenship and do my master's in Music Performance there, in Trondheim preferably. Awesome jazz scene apparently, though more on the bit out there side but we wll see. Anyway, my bed's a calling. Enjoy the rest of what I hope is a fine evening.

[dcstudio]

Yeah, you certainly got experience and the right judgement in saying I can't do traditional lessons, but there must be a way we can figure out how to get me doing classical in an unorthodox way. I will be discussing all this with the teacher in the morning. Already after half past midnight as I type right now.

just dinner time here in my time zone.  Thanks for your comments and there is a teacher there for you I am sure of it.  We are rare but not unheard of as most jazz pianists started out in the traditional way just like me.  The problem is that classical performance as a solo pianist is just not practiced by many teachers.  They clam up when they perform.   You don't have this problem I am sure which already gives you more experience than your hypothetical teacher and that's not what you need.  Just find someone that's not afraid to show you what they can do and who has some seasoned experience...  I know your kind.  lol.  You are a rare but not unheard of student as well.   You will pick this up far quicker than you think.  Music is music.

and Norway is really cold and dark.   I live next to the Gulf of Mexico with palm trees and sand and beaches... near New Orleans -- the birthplace of Jazz.

[ulven87]

just dinner time here in my time zone.  Thanks for your comments and there is a teacher there for you I am sure of it.  We are rare but not unheard of as most jazz pianists started out in the traditional way just like me.  The problem is that classical performance as a solo pianist is just not practiced by many teachers.  They clam up when they perform.   You don't have this problem I am sure which already gives you more experience than your hypothetical teacher and that's not what you need.  Just find someone that's not afraid to show you what they can do and who has some seasoned experience...  I know your kind.  lol.  You are a rare but not unheard of student as well.   You will pick this up far quicker than you think.  Music is music.

and Norway is really cold and dark.   I live next to the Gulf of Mexico with palm trees and sand and beaches... near New Orleans -- the birthplace of Jazz.

It's going to feel weird the first time I travel to the States. Never had the time nor cash saved for a decent trip. New Orleans I'd love to see. Not only birthplace of Jazz but also of my favourite chess player, Paul Morphy.

Yeah, I probably got much more of a performance history under my belt than most classical piano teachers. I love performing, always nice to get the blood flowing and the music going. When it goes well the rush is one of the best things in life. Don't get nerves anymore from the thought of performing these days. Guess it is like that for most who gig over time, you learn to enjoy the process and the reception. Solo gigs have an extra level of satisfaction, but the well executed communication between musicians is something else. At my college (sort of like a community college equivalent) we did end of year concerts for the two years of my HND qualification. Both times playing in front of 600 people. Now THAT was cool. Even got videoed, which was cool. First year had a great show, second one was decent but not as good as the first.

Here's a sample if you like. Bear in mind that sound is rather compressed. Oh and my mane is long gone. Only neck lengthish now. https://inverclyde-tv.com/stories/4631-sound-of-the-70s-part-7

That was about 18 months ago. And yes, I am hella baby-face for a guy who was about to turn 27 there. Fun gig. I did that gig after maybe 3 or 4 years of not touching the bass guitar when I got into guitar instead and focused on acoustic. Had been playing bass again for just over a month before playing there. Amazing how it all comes back to you, at least most of the technique. Took a bit to build the stamina again. That Blondie tune's relentless octaves get you after a while if you are not fully on your game. Hence the not so powerful impov solo. :p

Anyway, spoke to teacher. Seems to have done a bunch but can't do weekends. Bummer. Only has certain slots I can reserve. Gotta keep looking. Will definitely stick to your advice and find someone with a history of performance. Plus can help me be a jazzer. Though I could get my dad to give little lessons in jazz sometimes once my technique is sound. Man he can do some great stuff at times, but hasn't the confidence or will to go out there and play. Shame as he is great and better than he thinks. The guy used to play Fantasie Impromptu flawlessly before. Though maybe with not quite a subtle enough touch which my dad feels is greater than it is. Gotta jam with him more. Maybe that will help.

[dcstudio]

 surprisingly nice rendition of stayin alive..  You can do disco my friend than you can do jazz.  I laugh so hard when I see you kids -- cause that's what you are to me-- do the BEE GEES.  I was around in '77 when this was all the rage.    No self-respecting teenager admitted to liking disco in 1977.    The Bee Gees were the iconic image of all that was not Rock-n-Roll.   We downed the Stones, Queen, and especially Rod Stewart for their sell-out disco cave-in tunes.

Just like your Dad you are better than you think.   You must know how rare it is to find someone who can hang...  all that will transfer right over to the piano and you will be jamming in no time.   Don't hang any special significance on classical piano pieces... treat them like anything else... they are NO DIFFERENT.

ok the Jackson 5 gal..  "pitchy" but a nice voice.   Dig that hair dude...lol.   I went to high school with 1000 guys who wore their hair just like that. 

Funny I understand her fine when she sings...but when she speaks -- I didn't catch most of what she said.   I have a deep south accent... trust me... we would have a heck of a time conversing IRL.

May I officially welcome you and tell you how nice it is to have you here at PS.   I do so enjoy players who do what they say they do and are who they say they are.

oh the surfin tune from Pulp Fiction is rockin....  I like your playing---dude I would hire you in a second.  Your drummer rushes sometimes but this is my favorite so far.  I so totally enjoyed watching and listening to that!

you are a musician...  don't fear the piano.    Post your progress regularly and document how your chops improve and then you can say "I did it in 4 months"  -- and back it up with videos.

Nice to meet you! 

[ulven87]

surprisingly nice rendition of stayin alive..  You can do disco my friend than you can do jazz.  I laugh so hard when I see you kids -- cause that's what you are to me-- do the BEE GEES.  I was around in '77 when this was all the rage.    No self-respecting teenager admitted to liking disco in 1977.    The Bee Gees were the iconic image of all that was not Rock-n-Roll.   We downed the Stones, Queen, and especially Rod Stewart for their sell-out disco cave-in tunes.

Just like your Dad you are better than you think.   You must know how rare it is to find someone who can hang...  all that will transfer right over to the piano and you will be jamming in no time.   Don't hang any special significance on classical piano pieces... treat them like anything else... they are NO DIFFERENT.

ok the Jackson 5 gal..  "pitchy" but a nice voice.   Dig that hair dude...lol.   I went to high school with 1000 guys who wore their hair just like that. 

Funny I understand her fine when she sings...but when she speaks -- I didn't catch most of what she said.   I have a deep south accent... trust me... we would have a heck of a time conversing IRL.

May I officially welcome you and tell you how nice it is to have you here at PS.   I do so enjoy players who do what they say they do and are who they say they are.

oh the surfin tune from Pulp Fiction is rockin....  I like your playing---dude I would hire you in a second.  Your drummer rushes sometimes but this is my favorite so far.  I so totally enjoyed watching and listening to that!

you are a musician...  don't fear the piano.    Post your progress regularly and document how your chops improve and then you can say "I did it in 4 months"  -- and back it up with videos.

Nice to meet you! 

Ha ha, The Bee Gees tunes was fun. First time I saw it on a list, I was like, ahahahaha, poor suckers getting that... Then saw my name. Thank goodness  found the bassline was ok and I was free to add spice to bits of the lines now and again.

Want You Back was fun, but man the sidehand did something weird. PA goes and it is an explosion of bongos, nothng like how we rehearsed and apparently we all started playing at the wrong point but the backing track was pretty constant so whatever.

Last one was just fun, and  got to let rip. Would be fun to jam sometime, shame we live an ocean apart and skype would be interesting for time keeping...

Nah,  still think we'd understand each other. :p Whenever I heard you talk on your channel you are completely intelligible and hear plenty of people on yotube and even reality tv from the Deep South who had very strong accents. But there was always enough there to know what it meant.

Now, if we both had a bottle of bourbon, well that'd be a challenge. Last time I shared a litre bottle with a Norwegian friend of mine and ended up drinking about two thirds of it, so about 23-24 fl. oz. (took a while to translate the metric to the Imperial measurements you have stateside. I ended up either speakng broad Glaswegian or in Norwegain. I so rarely drink either, so I was gone. Drink maybe once every two months. Alcohol makes me sleepy and I can't get stuff done on it.

Oddly btw, we have pints of beer, the standard measurement of beer. Spirits/Liquor, we use metric and with a tiny cup to measure the perfect amount every time.

Thanks for the compliments.

Nah, I don't fear piano,  stare at it wondering what I can make it do next. Looks like it is Bach's Prelude No. 1 in C Major. Or a nice exercise for beginners on making music out of arpeggios. Feel easy enough. Definitely easy to read! I give it two to three weeks before I can play a version of it. If I devote all my piano time, a week. But  want to do it justice. Not just play notes. Will do a video in a month.

I know what you mean about people who say they can play something to big themselves up and can't play for (beep). My dad once formed a band and needed a drummer, guy he knew said, oh yeah I can play drums! So they thought they were going to be fine for members. Turned out the guy could only do military parade snare drum! But he was just not right in the noggin.

I'm a reasonable musician but have lots to learn but piano I will learn quickly at first. Then I need to get the subtleties down but music is music. Classical is nothing to fear. Learning a Bach Violin Sonata on bass for my audition for this top-up course to get my full degree (yeah we can do some odd things in Scotland) and it is intense. Very fun though but what a workout.

But I also better get my bass sightreading down , not to mention ingrain the theory an make sure I can apply it on the fly. I am at that stage where I understand a fair amount of basic modal jazz, but need to plan solos. The irony being that to make my planned solos I need to improvise a lot and get a greatest hits package together. Will take time and work, but that's fine.

Pleasure to meet you, and we will need a short skype session one day. Need a webcam though.

And thanks for the welcome to PS. You are one very friendly, cool, and interesting person to speak to. Good to be hear.

[dcstudio]

Now, if we both had a bottle of bourbon, well that'd be a challenge.

You?  A Scotsman-- with a bottle of Kentucky bourbon...now that would be quite a sight, especially if you were wearing your kilt...  I believe you when you say you don't drink much... lol.  I grew up with yearly visits from my Aunt from Scotland who was no relation to me..  She would always ask me to pass her the flask of brandy for her coffee at 8 am sharp every morning. I was 5

Theory is a good thing and will get you out of a lot of binds, but you have to apply it and understand it.   You are on the right track... your story is very familiar.   Realize that there are many piano teachers out there who can play like lightning but have never experienced the rush onstage that you and I are both addicted to.  Performing is terrifying.   For me, working at McDonalds is far more hellish of a prospect than playing the piano in front of people.

My webcam is not working right now either so when Skype is possible we will certainly jam out in cyberspace.   

looking forward to watching your progress on the piano

[dcstudio]

oh and I also had a running gig playing a "Burns Supper" every year for a bunch of Scotsman who worked for Nasa in Houston.    That "warm and reeking" Haggis is some vile stuff.

[reiyza]

Oh, and reiyza, if you want resources for bass study, PM me.

Thanks! I'll contact you later, if I decide to return to bass playing. I've been too busy as of late, since I am working and attending piano classes in the same day. Haha.


Goodluck to you mate.

[where_july]

Hello peeps,
Now all I want to do is play piano to a degree where I can enjoy playing some classical pieces, and get into some jazz and funk type stuff, and compose using an instrument ideal for it. I am not aiming for recitals, having a career from playing piano, or trying to reach the technical heights of Liszt.

Though a teacher would be nice, I can't afford £20 to £25 a week, especially when piano, though a nice hobby, won't be a main one. I have bass guitar, and learning Norwegian and French in those categories. Norwegian I need to focus on most as this time next year I will have just taken one of two national tests in the language which will let me study at university there and work in professions.

I'd especially like to hear from people who taught themselves piano from scratch after having a lot of musical experience, and preferably with some formal training as well in that instrument.

Ulven.

Hello Everyone here on Pianostreet )) I am a newbie here and in piano playing. Lurking for last 6-8 months in the forum. Nice place to be, nice people. Cheers everyone.))


Hello Ulven,

I have exactly same goals as yours.

I self-taught piano since last 4 moths. My musical history is 5 years of formal music school (though fnished 35 (!) years ago, with a little to be kept from that time) with harmonica as main instrument and all the remaining formal subjetcs like solfeggio, music history / literature, general piano, playing in a pupils orchestra. I am an aspiring bassist too but with no more then 50 hours of pure practice so far. And yes it is all hobby. My profession is very far from music.

As for piano starting from scratch, now I play freely from memory, legato 95%, no pedal:
1. Bach Sarabande E-dur BWV 817 (Hands Together) up to MM70 (polishing as if for a recital),
2. Bach Courrante Eb-dur BWV 819 (HT) up to MM 80-85 (polishing as if for a recital),
3. Beethoven Fur Elise (Hands Separate) up to MM 140 including the part in the RH in the middle with 32nds, last week just started joining hands.
4. Bach Sarabande Bb-dur BWV 821 (HS) so far up to MM 72, but with goal around MM 110 HS (I start ther joining the hands).
5. Mercury, My Melancholy Blues (HS, MM 60, quite a RH-breaker with its wide chords all the time for my relatively small hands, catching only the major 9th after good warm-up)

Just started last week:
6. Bach Echo Bb-dur, BWV 821 (HS, just memorizing so far, already 20 bars 70% memorized)

I never look at the keyboard since I finished #1 (see Chang and Richman below). Never, even for jumps over octave in Fur Elise LH.

I have studied very carefully:
- Mr. Chang, Piano Practice (read once through)
- Howard Richman, Super Sight-reading (read once through, second time go along by excercises),
- Semour Fink, Mastering Piano Technique (so far read till the middle).
- Bernhard here (read all, actually saved all his threads / comments to my hard drive)


I believe private teachers are not efficient for the begginers already knowing some musical basics as you are. There are reasons (check Mr. Changs' reasoning on this):

A. I cannot evaluate if the particluar teacher teaches me good or bad. Even after 10 lessons. I would not veryfy it at my own expence just to understand after 20-30 lessons that money could have be better saved.

B. What the piano playing is - a lot of practice. A lot. There is no workaround the teacher can give you even for 100 pounds / hour. A person should repeat some couple of bars for 1000 (or 5000? 10000?) times before the techniques ingrains flawlessly to play at requireed speed in the situation of recital. No other way.

C. Mr. Chang's book comprises ALL the techniques and problems explaniations the BEGINNERS like me (or you) should know.

Explained in a very detailed, careful manner. So that, if you nailed, internalized one of his explanations mentally and put a lot of efforts into practicing it to the specific bar (or couple of notes, or a piece, or...), your hand (your speed, your accuracy etc.) will tell you are on the right way (or the opposite).

This is the part of the practice that physically teaches my hands, my brain, my counscious and my unconscious. Not a teacher.

D. All the playing technique already IS in the piece. Some technique in this piece, some in the other. The best of this is you have a very strong carryover of technicues as you learn new pieces, If you nailed the going down 32nds 543214321 at MM150 unconsciously, every passage of this kind in every next pice you learn would take a minimal adaptation from you. Or a 4 finger chords in RH, or full octave arpeggios in LH. You will see yourself how your technique builds up with every next piece.

E. IME any physical harm you may do you your arms is healed within a week of non-touching piano. Just do not overuse one hand heavily, change LH/RH - (NB Mr.Chang on this), go by hand feel.  Plus "clair davies trigger point therapy" do a search and study the book. Plus the hands should be trained with something heavier than a mouse or a pen) You know) Helps a lot))

F. Counting (I did not rememner Mr. Chang's elaborates on this) - count out loud 100% precise every piece all the bars all the time (!) you practice till the written rythms become second nature, i.e. you can sing HS youself. Count to the least written note - to 16th if it is 16th - say "1-tha-and-ty;2-tha-and-ty" for 2/4 meter etc. 32nds to be counted too but generally only where they appear. Though if the meter is say 3/8 32nds can be counted as 16th (and 8ths as 4ts, 16th as 8ths).


G. Get up to speed WITH and metronome: I competelly sign under what Mr. Chang says about chord attack and parallel sets but... I still see the key role of metronome as a measure of progress - which is a probably biggest factor that keeps your desire to learn the piano (provided you lear the paces you desire to play).

E.g. I know that last week I only could play the piece from memory slowly with no MM (or say MM40) and after 3-4 practice days I get to MM74. Or now I play at 130 what I could not imagine to play at MM80 a month ago. This is what moves me - I really see / hear the resiults (BTW my relatives' appreciation 'wow that one was soooo fast' also means a lot).

Now about speed walls that can appear. So far I say that technique for speeding up with metronome should be as follows (all HS)
1) learn overall piece as a whole HS at no MM (i.e. very slowly) and play it at will from memory freely - no mistakes allowed playing it 2-3 times in a row after warm-up.
2) speed set the MM at speed where you can repeat the result of 1).
3) as you can do it increase MM by 2.
4) repeat till you can play easily, no mistakes and have spare time to scratch your nose or stare in the window while playing. I read that as for bass you have to repeat the phrase (or piece) till you feel steady spare (!) space between moving your fingers to the next notes.
5) return to 3)
6) repeat 3-4-5 till you get to the speed where you find youself mistaken in a couple of bars (or 2-3-5 etc. pitches). So 45 bars of a pice go alomg nicely with a given MM but bar 3, 15-16, and 38 you make mistakes - these are speed walls as I underdstand them.

Now learn and apply speed up techiniques from Mr.Chang book. As a result you will have to slow down this particular 1-2 bars (pitches) a lot to discern the finger movements and find the one working better, change fingering, adjust the wrist movement, figure out missing hand movement. And then build back the speed with the MM as per above for this particular portion of music. Then link it with the rest. Voila))


And now my plan for myself and advice for a beginner like you is:

I. I know while teaching myself, I will only learn / play the real pieces I adore (!) or at least like (!) (thus huge motivation). Plus scales, modes, arpeggios, etc. No techical etudes, Hanon and the like.


II. Pieces be rather simple but serious musically, technically challenging, real music - not the "marry had a little lamb" - like. I am not sure that any teacher would avised me to start with contrapuntal Bach sarabande - which I very happily play now everyday (sometime ago even 10 - 20 times eagerly).

III. Absorbing each and every the technique from Mr. Chang's book - enough material to learn for a year at lest (or two) before start thinking about any teacher.


IV. Reading pianostreet and looking at the discussed pieces sheet music to check if I would be pleased to learn and play afterwards any of them (for me anyhow I have no such issue as I am completelly into Bach's contrapunt pieces).

V. Fingering. I am sure that inventing fingering by miself from scratch is huge source of experience. Thus I do not use fingerings (or accents markings from urtexts).

VI. Jazz-funk-fusion: not before I will play 20+ classical pieces of up to 100-150 bars length. Then probably a 1 hour personal master-class of a good jazz/funk player - to hear what course to follow (pieces, essential reading on techniques). Practice.

VII. Composing: Tonal Harmony - Kostka, Payne - do all the excercises. Learn composing methods for contrapuntal music. Compose some. Transcribe and write down a sheet music  all parts from many real music I like including drums, bass, synths, vocals (say all parts of I Robot - Some Other Time - Alan Parsons Project). Analyze harmonical structure and arranging specifics. Repeat.

Roughly this is it.

I have all the needed technique explanation, sheet of music at my stand, the selection of the pieces I selected for perspective. As simple as that )


Some hints:
- for #1 took 40 exact practice hours (literally, I keep my excercise journal, practice time reported to 5 minutes accuracy) before I could play #1 HT on MM around 45-50. I used only hand memory there (see Mr. Chang, with respective implications of hand memory) hence I make more mistakes.
- for #2 - around 25-30 exact practice hours till HT MM60. No conscious hand memory used, not a look at keyboard, all by touching, visual memory of the keys under mental sight, the fingers pressing the right keys, visualize keys-fingers ahead of playing, singing along note names.
- for #4 - less than 10 hours til HS MM72, + I expect another 3 hours to get it to MM110-120 and another ~3 hours to make it correct and even HT. Key touching, visualizing at mental sight as above + simultaneous mental visualization of notes on the staff I play, singing along note names (after the counting is ingrained).
- for #6 - it took 6 hours to learn HS 20 bars memorized at say 70% (the piece is 49 bars, the #1, 2, 4 are 24-28 bars each so it looks my speed in lerning & memorizing has grown significantly). The main pleasure here will be to up the speed to the required Allegro >=MM120 (actually I am looking forward to get the speed gradually at roughly MM160 before joining hands).
- I do (will) polish all the pieces as if for recitals.


Hope that would be of help to you or some old beginners)))

And yes Engiish is not my mother tongue))

Me and essays - guilty too)) Sorry mates)

PS
Deliberate Practice - great reading:
https://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf

[ulven87]

Certainly reading Fundamentals of Piano Practice, but still getting a teacher for every other week. Reason is to keep an eye on me and make sure I am not doing something which seems natural and might hurt me. I will learn some lessons on certain particulars of technique with feedback: I may think I have it perfectly, but actually it can still be improve upon.

I will learn 95% of my material without showing it to the teacher. Only stuff I have problems with, and I can get useful information in the beginning stage. Then eventually I can just go solo, as long as the good habits are in place which I want to have nailed down.

Practically everything you say I agree with, but a piano teacher is useful for feedback, just in case, as well as showing you ways of doing things. I can learn certain pieces at her pace perhaps, but I will be working on a lot else at home.

I am already a trained musician in bass guitar, a rhythm instrument, so counting is a non-issue for me. I have been playing just over two weeks and find Bach's Prelude in C rather easy. A lot of the finger strength on bass has transferred over and I can understand the notes on the staff, it is just matching it up to keys on the piano.

I am having my first lesson tomorrow, but just because I have lessons doesn't mean I won't learn other stuff. Basic thing when learning non-classical instruments, you are encouraged to learn new things and sometimes attempt things beyond your level.

I will be both taught and self-taught, using the useful methods and advice I use in lessons and pro-actively apply it. I do intend on becoming a music tutor though, either a full teacher in schools or colleges, or an instrumental tutor on bass. But my other passion is language which I can fully teach myself. Then I will pass certain exams so I can do freelance translation and interpreter work.

But most likely teaching. I find helping people and giving information very satisfying.

You can judge a teacher by asking questions a lot, especially about things you know. Evaluate how they teach it and you can tell. Plus ask specific questions about showing precise finger positioning, and rules for good technique. Ask them to point out any bad habit they can see and make some mistakes on purpose. If they don't pick up on it, then you can begin to wonder how useful they will be as a teacher.

As for physical harm, I am talking about playing in such a way that you might build up to an injury and get carpal tunnel syndrome, repetitive strain injury, muscle pains to the shoulder. Sure, they heal up in time, but if you have a habit in your playing which is causing it, it is hard to get rid of.

[reiyza]

@ulven - The fundamentals of piano practice is like a pianist's reader's digest. The most helpful tip that I got from it was the parallel sets for alberti bass accompaniment(which I can do sloppy previously, but slowly improving).

I am having my first lesson tomorrow, but just because I have lessons doesn't mean I won't learn other stuff. Basic thing when learning non-classical instruments, you are encouraged to learn new things and sometimes attempt things beyond your level.

I got my new teacher today, boy, did he gave me a ton of assignments for the first day, but I'm glad I got one, Now I have someone to guide me on what to do next instead of always asking in this forum.

Since It's only a 1hr session per day, I'll mostly be studying alone alot. So I'm planning to apply what I've learned from this forum to what he gave me. Basically, taught and also self-taught as you are!

But most likely teaching. I find helping people and giving information very satisfying.

Very good attitude! Keep it up. and I hope you develop your skill as a pianist and a bassist.

I'm disregarding bass playing for the time being, since I'm now going full time with my piano.

[dcstudio]

Practically everything you say I agree with, but a piano teacher is useful for feedback, just in case, as well as showing you ways of doing things.

I am already a trained musician

a teacher is really there to assist you in your independent study and guide you when you already have that level of training and experience. 

[where_july]

Hi Ulve, glat to hear my comments came of use to you)) With the teacher or without I am sure you will achieve what you planned. The strong inner desire, determination and patience for years, day by day is what everyone needs to learn piano well.

As for physical harm, I am talking about playing in such a way that you might build up to an injury and get carpal tunnel syndrome, repetitive strain injury, muscle pains to the shoulder. Sure, they heal up in time, but if you have a habit in your playing which is causing it, it is hard to get rid of.

I believe carpal tunnel sindrome is of over-exagerated threat for non-professional pianists. Even though I play 2-4 hours a day I cannot push myself that far. If the paricular "2 bars" causes the wrist paim after just 3-5 repetitions in a row you must find the pain's culprit and eliminate it. If you try to make it through the pain, time after time, your body very soon (in minutes to days) will tell you "enough" forcing you to stop playing that way. Forcing you to find the painless way. Hence no harmful habit can stay.

With professional pianists who forces (!) themselves through 8-10 hours of daily play - i can imagine they can hurt.

And BTW Mr. Chang wrote in his book some vital comments about how to avoid the wrist pains - e.g. change hands right before the tension feels to builds up.

The pains and tensions above wrist (excluding it) to shoulder and neck are of different nature. Wrist pain/tension cause is from awkward hand-wrist-forearm position. Where wrist is the weak link.

Whereas above wrist tendons are not affected to the level of being damaged (the force applied to piano keys is not enoug to transfer damage to these big tendons) the muscles are affected by being constantly contracted for too long time due to the bad postural habbits, stress, nerves. They do not heal with the idle time (or even get worse). If you alredy got those issues there is the specific solution for the pain - as I wrote before, trigger point therapy. Or look up for active release technique.

The "prehab" method is to make you entire shoulder girdle stronger. With callistenic or iron. Further Seimour Fink talks about many important excercises supplementing overall brutal force initially needed to play the piano))

But from a perspective longer than several months a teacher is a crutch. Just look at fingerings - no hand-wrist-forearm is identical. The fingering working for you may hardly work for your teacher. And viceversa. The wrist bend painless for your teacher can cause pain at yours. And the teacher does not know this. He cannot feel what you feel. And here I would say you have to study your own reactions, watch, classify, cope with your body specifics - i.e. become your own teacher first. I would imagine it could help a little in pursuing you teaching endeavor ))

So keep your eye on your teacher to make him keep his eye on you better))

And no, I do not sell those books ))

Salut!
V.

[ulven87]

Carpal Tunnel is quite a specific illness, I have seen it happen to two guitarists I have known and a drummer. Still rare and you are right, you need a lot of practising per day to cause it. RSI though, that mainly occurs from overplaying or playing in a way which stresses the hands or wrists for extended periods from doing particular movements all too often. I suffered from it because I was a careless teenager, practising for 6 or more hours a day and just wanted to be "amazing" in my mind. Such a foolish thought process but it came out of insecurity.

It is about the music, not how good your ability to play at high speed is, but it is good to learn as much as you can which includes fast passages.

Chang's book is wonderful, and it is such a gift having it be free online. When I am next paid I will buy a proper paper version of it.

Also from a previous post of yours, you need not worry about your English skills. You write well and where there are small mistakes you are completely understandable.

I will be using a teacher for a relatively short time. Mainly just to ensure my technique is good and help with playng pieces with the right dynamics for each note when played in a chord. Or, voicing, essentially.

My piano playing is just a hobby and sideline to my bass and language learning, and will be used a lot as a compositional tool. Once I can play piano I can figure out the music I compose in my head a lot of the time. But working on ear-training and relative pitch will help a lot too. 

Also, your English is absolutely fine. In one post you were making it clear that English is not your mother tongue and that there may be mistakes mais il n'ya pas beaucoup des erreurs. (Hope I remembered that correctly.) I studied French a few years ago for a couple of months and have only just started it again using Assimil, Duolingo, and a website called LingQ for reading and listening to native French content at different levels of difficulty and I can click on words in an article I read at the time, and I can save it in my own personal database on the site. Keep doing that with different words and next time you find it, if yo don't remember, click for a definition. And you can test yourself out too with electronic flashcards. It is interesting and fun to use.

Salut! La langue francaise, c'est belle.

I look forward to knowing the language well and reading French literature in the original language.

[dcstudio]

although you may not yet play the piano the way you wish, you speak with the voice of experience.  You already understand the pitfalls, the neurosis, the insecurity, being a "legend in your own mind," and all of that crap.  That is what prevents people from succeeding at music most of the time--not a physical problem, or lack of practice in their youth, or an inability to play--just their own hang ups.  On top of that you have been in a formal music school setting and received a curriculum based education in music.  You are the same musician on each instrument you play--just like you are the same person despite the language you are speaking (or in my case, attempting.)  You will be amazed at how quickly you will pick up the piano.  You will have an exceptionally good LH sense from your bass playing as well.  Few adults learning the piano have this kind of advantage...  very, very, few.

looking forward to hearing you play when you get comfortable.


btw the whole bit about "you are the same musician on every instrument"  that was from a show I saw with Victor Wooten...  and you know who that is don't you? I went to university with Mike Pope--who is not as well known as Wooten--but he plays with Chick Corea and David Sanborn so you may have heard of him too.  I used to smear him in theory class.

[where_july]

Hi Ulven,

although you may not yet play the piano the way you wish, you speak with the voice of experience.

I sign under what this good lady says (good morning, Madam) ))

Thanks for compliment to my English. I hope there is not so many mistakes) I learnt French too)) At school around 40 years ago))

On wrist damage: for bass/guitar player it is a bit different - you cannot change hands there. And keeping straight arm-wrist-hand (wrist unbent) is sometimes easily overlooked. So 20 minutes playing in one position the same riff upping a MM can cause much pain to cancel next day practice. In piano all this is not so straight and transparent. So the harm more so to say crawls than ambush at you. Anyway you are going to be fine)

V.