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Topic: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.  (Read 2816 times)

Offline thejeev

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Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
on: February 13, 2016, 02:42:23 PM
Moonlight, also added the first bar of each movement at the end to show how the themes are related.

Played on a Casio Celviano AP-620.

Thanks.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 12:13:48 AM
There is so much rubato in this, it's actually psychotically schizophrenic. There is very little fluency in this and the rubato you put into this doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry, but if you are trying to convince us of your musical prowess and interpretive skills, then this is seriously doing the opposite.



ACTUALLY, this sort of playing sounds very similar to another user we had on this forum a few months back. I have a feeling he may have returned, under another username.

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 03:09:09 AM
There is so much rubato in this, it's actually psychotically schizophrenic. There is very little fluency in this and the rubato you put into this doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry, but if you are trying to convince us of your musical prowess and interpretive skills, then this is seriously doing the opposite.



ACTUALLY, this sort of playing sounds very similar to another user we had on this forum a few months back. I have a feeling he may have returned, under another username.

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Yeah keep ganging up, don't worry I can take it.

The "rubato" might not make sense to you, but then again, it seems a lot of things don't make sense to people here.

Though I'm VERY glad you mentioned "psychotically schizophrenic" because (in my opinion) that's what the piece is about, being on the verge of a breakdown. Almost a fantsy. Not the goddamned moon lol.

Keep listening to your moon piece the way you like it I suppose.

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #3 on: February 14, 2016, 03:11:19 AM
Your playing, quite simply, makes no musical sense.

Offline outin

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #4 on: February 14, 2016, 04:35:24 AM
At least this was slightly different to the original, which I cannot stand to listen anymore ;)
Unfortunately I couldn't quite get to the end of this one either...

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 05:59:07 AM
Your playing, quite simply, makes no musical sense.

That's probably because you're not listening in cut time like the score is marked.

It's in cut time because there is a melody in the left hand with the octaves that produce a two syllable idea. Most people don't even listen for this, and as a result they think the left hand is just bass notes that fit the melody.

Exact same problem with Rach, people listen to "other" interpretations and build an idea of what a piece should sound like based on that. You're probably listening in 4/4. The key is two triplets per beat. Once you approach it this way, suddenly the bass notes become a melody. What is with people not being able to listen over long periods of time, everything has to be easy, simple. These works are much more complex than one might think.

Glenn Gould played this piece really fast, as do others, because they see it too, why LVB did it in cut time. Just THINK about it, why would LVB mark cut time in an adagio piece? It's his way of saying, there's a melody in the bass, don't neglect it, it's every two beats, don't play the piece too slow otherwise you'll neglect it. I'm sorry if you can't hear it, and it doesn't make sense to you, but there is nothing I can do about that, other than say, enjoy your version of this piece, keep thinking of the moon lol, I know what LVB was going for here, and I promise you, if he were alive today and played this piece, it would sound NOTHING like what we're used to. If he heard most versions he'd crawl back in his grave.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 06:10:46 AM
The "rubato" might not make sense to you, but then again, it seems a lot of things don't make sense to people here.

No one's discovered the key to your insanity.

Though I'm VERY glad you mentioned "psychotically schizophrenic" because (in my opinion) that's what the piece is about, being on the verge of a breakdown. Almost a fantsy. Not the goddamned moon.

You DO realise that Beethoven was NOT the one who nicknamed it that? And no offense, I have no respect for your opinion. Your playing is sloppy and doesn't really bear any soul. Your pathetic attempts at Rubato are mean to try and disguise the fact that you don't really understand the music.

Nice try, but this is a very poor performance of this great work. Try again.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #7 on: February 14, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
No one's discovered the key to your insanity.

You DO realise that Beethoven was NOT the one who nicknamed it that? And no offense, I have no respect for your opinion. Your playing is sloppy and doesn't really bear any soul. Your pathetic attempts at Rubato are mean to try and disguise the fact that you don't really understand the music.

Nice try, but this is a very poor performance of this great work. Try again.



ah perfect_pitch I just posted on our other thread and unknowingly referenced the same user you are referring to.   Why is it always Moonlight Sonata?  You and I live on opposite sides of the planet and yet... it's always Moolight Sonata... that just seems to be a world wide phenomenon.   Then it's declared that it's really not about the moon at all and they know this because of their deep understanding of music...

Rach was practicing on a silent keyboard on an airplane in 1918... now that makes no sense... guess he just packed up his Roland in the gig bag went to the American Airlines counter at the airport that wasn't built yet--or maybe Quantas was flying that day--and bought a boarding pass on the Oslo-New York flight.   Then he opened the gig bag on and took out his silent keyboard.   It really wouldn't have mattered because planes were prop driven with no pressurized cabin-- as there were no jets--and so they were just loud as hell on the inside.  You could crank the Roland or jam out on a Steinway full stick--not gonna bother anyone...lol.  then what... he  laid it on the floor... or across the seats?   think it through next time...jeevs.  

they sure are entertaining aren't they? funny how these magical abilities never seem to translate into an actual ability to play at any kind of advanced level... wouldn't you agree?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #8 on: February 14, 2016, 08:53:17 AM
That's probably because you're not listening in cut time like the score is marked.

 If he heard most versions he'd crawl back in his grave.

OMG  none of us noticed the big slash through the C...  can you believe it?


hey I found a vid from 10 years ago ... my piano keys were sticking but here is my Moonlight 1st mvmt...   I had 15 minutes to post it from a YT challenge.. and it was featured.. in spite of the flaws...

what to you guys think?  do I compare to the mighty jeevs...







how bout my 3rd mvmt you all love so much... under the circumstances I think I should post it again...

jeevs buddy, this is the fast mvmt...  Beethoven was controlling my hands... I was only going on my instincts.  When I interpret music that way I can play really fast--why can't you?

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #9 on: February 14, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
If he heard most versions he'd crawl back in his grave.

If he heard your version - he'd want to strangle you with his bare-hands.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #10 on: February 14, 2016, 03:11:17 PM
No one's discovered the key to your insanity.

You DO realise that Beethoven was NOT the one who nicknamed it that? And no offense, I have no respect for your opinion. Your playing is sloppy and doesn't really bear any soul. Your pathetic attempts at Rubato are mean to try and disguise the fact that you don't really understand the music.

Nice try, but this is a very poor performance of this great work. Try again.



I don't understand, what do you mean he didn't nickname what? He didn't call it moonlight, it has nothing to do with moonlight. I've said this several times. He titled it "an almost fantasy". My interpretation explains why, and why he dedicated it to his girlfriend at the time.

There's obviously a small group of you that just like to make each other feel good.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #11 on: February 14, 2016, 03:15:57 PM
OMG  none of us noticed the big slash through the C...  can you believe it?


hey I found a vid from 10 years ago ... my piano keys were sticking but here is my Moonlight 1st mvmt...   I had 15 minutes to post it from a YT challenge.. and it was featured.. in spite of the flaws...

what to you guys think?  do I compare to the mighty jeevs...







how bout my 3rd mvmt you all love so much... under the circumstances I think I should post it again...

jeevs buddy, this is the fast mvmt...  Beethoven was controlling my hands... I was only going on my instincts.  When I interpret music that way I can play really fast--why can't you?



I played the first few bars of movement III in my recording. Not only do I manage to not hit about a dozen wrong notes in those few bars as you did, mine was actually faster, tighter, and a proper agitato.



Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #12 on: February 14, 2016, 05:27:49 PM
 

proper agitato?  don't use words you don't understand

even though my version is far from perfect... it far exceeds your abilities and those are my hands.

Rach on an airplane in 1918... you have absolutely zero credibility here.   It sounds like you recorded that very slowly then sped the tempo up on your clavichord.... post a vid. 

that's not you playing up to speed... lol.  please.   

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #13 on: February 14, 2016, 06:33:46 PM
 

proper agitato?  don't use words you don't understand

even though my version is far from perfect... it far exceeds your abilities and those are my hands.

Rach on an airplane in 1918... you have absolutely zero credibility here.   It sounds like you recorded that very slowly then sped the tempo up on your clavichord.... post a vid.  

that's not you playing up to speed... lol.  please.  

It most certainly is. And that's not even full throttle.

Your abilities probably do exceed mine, you studied music your whole life, I didn't.

Also I couldn't care less about credibility.

But I will give you a clue about "presto agitato". They're not seperate entities, you need to treat the presto as a modifier of the agitato. REALLY AGITATED, that's why I stress beats two and four, because he wants it REALLY AGITATED. The challenge is doing this throughout the entire piece, everyone is so used to playing toward the downbeat, it needs to be the opposite. I'll give you one more hint, if you play the agitato properly, you hear the exact same melody as in I and II, just much more angry.

I - Oh Ludwig...
II - Oh Lu, ud-wig (in 3)
III - Ludwig ludwig ludwig ludwig.. etc. ad absurdum.

Piece is about that girl he wanted to marry when he was younger, the one who teased him, saying if only they could be together. She probably said something like "Oh Ludwig, if only we could be together." That's the voice in the first movement, that's what you're hearing, you just don't realize it. That's why this movement has that haunting feeling, it's a voice in his head. In fact I was so happy to read that my playing sounded "psychotic" because it's exactly that. I don't play based on my own feelings, I play based on what I think the composer intended, I couldn't care less about LVB's girl problems, but what I do care about it getting inside his head through his music, it really is a wonderful thing.

Since people don't seem to have open minds here, I'll neglect to ask to take the above into consideration when listening, you'll hear the "Oh Ludwig" in the triplets, over and over, you'll hear it in the top voice, and you'll hear it in the bass octaves. Actually the bass is just "Luuudwiiig", except when there are crescendos and dissonance passages, he goes back to "Oh Ludwig" matching the main voice, to solidify the point. That's why it's in cut time, to bring out the "LUD-WIG". 

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 07:44:11 PM
"oh Ludwig" -- why on Earth would it work in English?  like Work to Do?

you didn't even take the time to verify your facts before spouting this nonsense--how disrespectful to the composer whose music you claim to understand.  You were insistent and rude--you have no credibility.   reading the notes from your edition isn't helping your case...we have all been teaching for years...do you have any idea how many students come in playing Moonlight Sonata?  I know what the performance notes and background blurb from every edition says.   ::)

full throttle?   interesting choice of words.  you are too funny.   this is the bluenote pianist isn't it?  you have come back to haunt the forum with a new piece of insanity... that's why you won't post a vid.



Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #15 on: February 14, 2016, 08:23:05 PM
Why wouldn't it work in english? Just put a German accent on it and it'll be fine. In fact a german accent fits well with the triplets, an American accent would give something like G#-E-C# (invert the last two notes of the triplet), but in German the emphasis is on the end, so we have G#-C#-E.

If by facts you mean the airplane thing, I don't even care about that, as I said I read it somewhere, maybe my brain decided to read a boat as a plane, weird things like that happen to all of us, it doesn't change anything about what I said, but since you love to call me out, you can have that one and keep referring to it as you please.

I also don't care who you've been teaching and for how long, every teacher can only bring students up to a certain threshould that matches their own, that doesn't make the student or the teacher particularly good (not saying this is the case with you or your gang of friends).

I have no idea who bluenote is, but if it's the guy you mentioned could talk to Liszt, I would understand if he claimed to be able to know what Liszt was saying in his pieces, because that I can relate to, but a two-way conversation? That's obviously stupid.

Why on earth do you want a video? I have nothing to show off, I simply played a piece the way I think it's supposed to mean, and gave an example of how the same thing is the basis for all 3 movements. But I'm happy to give more recordings if you actually are interested in seeing my side of things.

In fact pick one:

Rach 3 Ossia Cadenza (Blah blah! blah blah!)
Rach G-minor Prelude (Work to do! lol)
Liszt Concert Etude No. 3 "Un Sospiro"
Schubert Impromptu in G-flat (this is just a weird impromptu "quarrel" between a very soft-spoken voice and a more dominant bass, soft voice keeps saying he really loves, someone or something)

Though I should mention my keyboard is partially broken, sometimes notes come out at full volume despite being pressed softly. That, combined with the fact my left pinky is dislocated, is why I stuck to a slower piece, but they're generally harder to play than faster ones anyway.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 09:56:29 PM
I played the first few bars of movement III in my recording. Not only do I manage to not hit about a dozen wrong notes in those few bars as you did, mine was actually faster, tighter, and a proper agitato.





yeah, sure it was. :) you just keep telling yourself that.


lol.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #17 on: February 15, 2016, 01:15:49 PM
But I'm happy to give more recordings if you actually are interested in seeing my side of things.

In fact pick one:

Liszt Concert Etude No. 3 "Un Sospiro"

Given how much you ranted on about this piece in one of your first posts - I'd like to see you try to attempt this piece. Would be nice if you introduce yourself first on the video to prove it is you playing.

How about that?

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #18 on: February 15, 2016, 10:26:28 PM
Given how much you ranted on about this piece in one of your first posts - I'd like to see you try to attempt this piece. Would be nice if you introduce yourself first on the video to prove it is you playing.

How about that?

I accept if granted the following:

You actually allow me to make the case for this piece, and "temporarily" grant me the ability to ask of you specific requests, and to listen in a certain way, to read everything I write, give it SERIOUS thought, and try to see my side. At this point I'm convinced nobody is doing this now because I have no "credibility". Un Sospiro is going to be difficult because it's so popular, any able pianist who can play Liszt has at least looked at this piece. Over time this piece has slowed down so much, that we are in act hearing a reallyyyyyy long drawn out story.

When Liszt marked ALLEGRO, that's 100-120, people play this at like, 60, it stretches out the narrative so long that it's almost impossible to pick it out now. This combined with the fact that many people are REALLY lazy with accents, dynamics, now the whole piece is gone.

Starting to ramble, but if granted this by you and your "friends", I'll gladly comply, but I'm NOT going to waste my time if nobody is going to give this serious, and I mean serious, consideration. Perhaps I didn't make my case in the best way possible, I just wanted to get a general reaction, which has been negative, but I don't blame anyone for taking this position, given the nature of my claim. There is one half of me over on your side of the court, asking myself "lol what the hell", I'm not crazy, I know how crazy this sounds, but I am also convinced that it has to be true.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 11:07:30 PM
so I just want to make sure I am understanding this...  you are setting up a set of conditions we must abide by if we are to listen or you are to post? Heretofore you have posted misinformation while claiming to have special abilities and now we must make further concessions to see and hear you play?

your analysis of Moonlight Sonata "Oh Ludwig" are you saying that's what Beethoven was thinking in German but yet you are translating it to English and it still rhythmically matches the theme?  like work to do--which has more syllables in Russian--and that is the language Rach spoke--yet somehow it works in English?  I am confused as to what exactly this skill of yours is and if I have any hope of understanding this I would like to know.   I don't want anymore analysis---just tell me if your are receiving this from the spirit of the composer, are you saying this is what the composer thought, or is this like speaking in tongues and a universally understood language...that you alone understand...  it's not very clear.

as a rule of thumb--anytime your brain starts telling you that "you are the only one, you are greater than those around you, you have a secret power"   it's seriously confused.

did you recently lose someone? you never answered that question.




Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #20 on: February 16, 2016, 04:17:39 AM
so I just want to make sure I am understanding this...  you are setting up a set of conditions we must abide by if we are to listen or you are to post? Heretofore you have posted misinformation while claiming to have special abilities and now we must make further concessions to see and hear you play?

What misinformation? Are you on about that boat and plane thing again? If so, then yes, but everything else I said stands.

your analysis of Moonlight Sonata "Oh Ludwig" are you saying that's what Beethoven was thinking in German but yet you are translating it to English and it still rhythmically matches the theme?

"Oh [name]" would sound the same in almost any langauge, especially German. It's like a laugh, go read any religious text or music work with lyrics, you'll see "O yadda yadda" all over the place. "O" or "oh" It sounds the same no matter the language. As I explained, the difference here is, Ludwig in German would sound like Lud-VIG. That's why I made the joke earlier, if LVB were born in England, he would have inverted the last two notes of each triplet to reflect the accent more. It was just a joke, not serious, but was trying to make a point.

  like work to do--which has more syllables in Russian--and that is the language Rach spoke--
yet somehow it works in English?

"Work" in Russian, according to the translator I used, is "работа". That's 3 syllables, just like the main march theme. Even the bass is 3 syllables. He could simply be saying "work" over and over. Here the Russian "работа" can be translated into "Work (to do)" and it still fits the piece perfectly.

I'll use this opportunity to clarify something. I've been trying to say that, there is a universal language that exists, which is "music", that no matter what language you speak, the composer "infused" his/her piece with an idea, thought etc. that we can all "relate" to because of the tone it has. Again, if you asked 10 differently languaged people, to curse really voilently in their tongue, the general tones will all match, not the words used.


  I am confused as to what exactly this skill of yours is and if I have any hope of understanding this I would like to know.   I don't want anymore analysis---just tell me if your are receiving this from the spirit of the composer, are you saying this is what the composer thought, or is this like speaking in tongues and a universally understood language...that you alone understand...  it's not very clear.

I'm not receiving anything from the composers directly, that would be crazy. All I'm claiming, is that somehow something in my brain is "sensitive" to hearing, and reducing a "tone" or musical work, back into it's inspired idea, or something very close to it.

In fact I'll use the term "theory of mind" here, which has been talked about a lot this past century. I don't care if I sound crazy here, but I'll try to explain it using the term above.

There is a quiz you can take, which gauges your ability to "assess" the emotional state of an individual based only on looking at their eyes. My ex girlfriend gave me this quiz because it was part of a lab she was running. Now I actually scored perfect on this, but at the time I thought nothing of it, though she did tell me I must have got lucky. Here's a link to another version of the quiz:

https://www.questionwritertracker.com/quiz/61/Z4MK3TKB.html

So what's this got to do with music? What's I'm saying is, I think my ability to gauge this "theory of mind" actually extends further than just seeing someone's face. I am seeing it in music. But this only started happening recently, I've never been this way before. If you happen to take this test, just imagine me taking a different test, of a musical nature, and I'm gauging the emotional state of these composers, and trying to translate it back into "a language" we can understand here, in this case English. Would a translation of mine ever be perfect? No probably not, but whatever my translation ends up, it's close ... "CLOSE"... to what the composer intended (in my opinion).

So, in a nutshell, I'm probably autistic to some degree when it comes to theory of mind, and I believe I can "hear" (not literally) what these composers are actually saying. It never manifests in a language, words don't just jump out at me, it's a combination of many things, the tone, structure, tempo, markings, all the small small small details. In fact the smaller the detail, the more "telling" it is. It's the process of, coming up with "theories", applying them to the rest of the piece, the composer himself. Just like a crossword puzzle. Many "words" can fit into the spaces, but only one is correct. You'll only complete the puzzle if you picked all the right answers, otherwise you'll get stuck somewhere and not get the entire puzzle resolved.


as a rule of thumb--anytime your brain starts telling you that "you are the only one, you are greater than those around you, you have a secret power"   it's seriously confused.

My brain didn't tell anything of the sort. I know there are pianists out there that when I hear them play a piece I'm familiar with, I can easily say to myself "yeah they get it". Now they may not use as many resources as I do digging into a piece "from an emotional perspective, not research", because they play hundreds of pieces each year.

I believe that there is a spectrum of "ability to comprehend musical meaning". This is what distinguishes those select few great eternal pianists like Rach and Liszt and such, I know there are many others. They would have fallen ridiculously high on this spectrum. I'm not making any such claim for myself, as I'm not a real pianist or musician, but what I'm trying to convey is I think I understand how they approached music, how they heard music, how they composed it, and what it was intended to convey.


did you recently lose someone? you never answered that question.

No I didn't, I don't have PTSD, nothing tragic happened.





Offline thirtytwo2020

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #21 on: February 16, 2016, 08:58:49 AM
Thejeev,
I think there were some really beautiful moments in your rendition of the 1st movement.

In my opinion, though, what you're doing in terms of rubato takes away rather than enhances the great emotional impact of this music. Having said that, I can't really understand the vehemence with which perfect_pitch and others are attacking you :-\

I'm rather new to this forum, and may not know the background to this quarrel. But if all of you consider thejeevs posts so ridiculous and offensive, why not ignore them instead of giving them all this attention?

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #22 on: February 16, 2016, 10:09:34 AM
Thejeev,
I think there were some really beautiful moments in your rendition of the 1st movement.

In my opinion, though, what you're doing in terms of rubato takes away rather than enhances the great emotional impact of this music. Having said that, I can't really understand the vehemence with which perfect_pitch and others are attacking you :-\

I'm rather new to this forum, and may not know the background to this quarrel. But if all of you consider thejeevs posts so ridiculous and offensive, why not ignore them instead of giving them all this attention?

Thanks for your kind words.

Now the rubato I agree I went heavy on, but I did this to try and emphasize how the cut time adagio forms a two-syllable melody in the bass. I supposed it could have done with less, but I was feeling particularly cynical and borderline "psychotic", was trying to drive the madness home. Most people expect a very "strict" melodic flow when it comes to this piece, and whenever a single note doesn't fall where they expect it, it sticks out to them. I suppose my recording isn't for those people, but rather I'm offering a different take on it. I played it again today with much less rubato, I was actually happier with it than this one.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #23 on: February 16, 2016, 10:42:50 AM
...and to listen in a certain way, to read everything I write, give it SERIOUS thought, and try to see my side.

You see... good music should need no description - it can't be described in words. Music is simply the expression of moods, feelings and inner thoughts, but so powerful that they can't be interpreted in simple wordy phrases.

Granted, you are allowed an opinion in trying to describe how you think the piece should be perceived, however this is still your opinion and won't relate to other people in the same way it relates to you; and because of this - there is a sense of futility in trying to put specific phrases into words.

I played it again today with much less rubato, I was actually happier with it than this one.

If this is true, I'd like to hear it... and in fact, glad that you like the version with less rubato. It obstructs the sense of flow. Sure, of course music isn't set exactly to xxx bpm, but it should have the gentle ebb and flow, the up and down of gentle hills... not of the grand canyon.

You see, a few people in the past (won't mention names), [cough, cough...

MICHAEL SAYERS...]

...have tried to use excessive rubato as a cover for not being able to feel the inner flow of the music. It's the same with people who use too much body movement when playing simple pieces. They think that if they look like they need an exorcism, they're just really emotionally connected with the piece... however, that's bollocks.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #24 on: February 16, 2016, 05:48:31 PM
Thejeev,
I think there were some really beautiful moments in your rendition of the 1st movement.

In my opinion, though, what you're doing in terms of rubato takes away rather than enhances the great emotional impact of this music. Having said that, I can't really understand the vehemence with which perfect_pitch and others are attacking you :-\

I'm rather new to this forum, and may not know the background to this quarrel. But if all of you consider thejeevs posts so ridiculous and offensive, why not ignore them instead of giving them all this attention?

good question.

I have been there... I am trying very hard not to quarrel but to simply interject facts to try and be the voice of reason.  This kind of thinking can get seriously out of hand.   The brain is a funny thing especially when it rewires itself.

thejeev said in an earlier post that it was also "very scary."  This statement concerned me most of all.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #25 on: February 16, 2016, 06:04:47 PM
What misinformation? Are you on about that boat and plane thing again? If so, then yes, but everything else I said stands

you asked us to imagine we were Rach-- we write the 3rd Concerto to explode onto the scene...we practice on the plane ride over...   this was your "vision" and it is clearly in contrast to historical fact.

the 3rd Concerto was written in 1908... when  Rach was a happy-go-lucky Russian before the Revolution that forced him into exile... it was clearly not written to "explode onto the scene" in the US as your "abilities" suggested.   He had no intentions of leaving his beloved homeland at that time... he was part of the aristocracy.  

as for the plane ride...  that's so seriously out of the chronological realm of possibility it need not be repeated.   How do you think he got a silent piano keyboard on a plane in 1918?


so now you were saying...  yes that part was wrong but everything else is right.   When you posted the original statement you were quite sure you were correct... it was only verifiable historical fact that made you concede.  In fact you at first, told me my facts were incorrect and I looked ridiculous. (For the record... that was a pretty ballsy thing to say to a f@$king piano teacher who was born into a family of PILOTS and learned to fly at 12 years old. lol)

So now how can you be SO sure that the rest of your vision is accurate?   I am not saying it is out of the realm of possibility--I am just saying... how do YOU know and what possible evidence can you provide to support these claims... ???  How can you also expect anyone to take you seriously?

I have already shown your statements to be verifiably incorrect and called your abilities into objective question... now the burden of proof is on you.  You are asking us to "believe" something that has been shown to be false.

like I said... give this a little while...  and you will gain some perspective. It makes a big difference.

..and thank you for reminding me once again that my music history classes were not a waste of time.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #26 on: February 16, 2016, 10:16:21 PM
You see... good music should need no description - it can't be described in words. Music is simply the expression of moods, feelings and inner thoughts, but so powerful that they can't be interpreted in simple wordy phrases.

You are 100% correct. However this misses the point of why I want the opportunity to make a case for this piece. What I'm saying is, people have probably heard dozens of renditions of this piece at, what I not only consider to be, but is clearly marked in the score, much too slow a tempo. Hamelin comes closest but still it's too slow. As a result, people have an "expectation" when they know they are about to hear the piece. The reason I want to make a case is because I fear that I'll be adjudicated based on others' impression of the piece via performances that don't follow the score properly. This has changed the entire meaning of the piece. Yes, it's still a sigh, but we're all used to hearing a long drawn out version of it. I bring out nuances that I've never heard in any rendition, and I want to explain WHY they should be there, why they are missed, and how they are supposed to change the "tone" of the piece to something that's not immediately obvious. If there were performances out there that already did this, I would refer to them, but I feel that there aren't.

Granted, you are allowed an opinion in trying to describe how you think the piece should be perceived, however this is still your opinion and won't relate to other people in the same way it relates to you; and because of this - there is a sense of futility in trying to put specific phrases into words.

My "opinion" is going to refer to explicit markings and direction from Liszt himself, it is quite nuanced. In a nutshell, my biggest beef with performers of this piece is, it's supposed to be extremely dramatic, extremely expressive, it's supposed to make you forget you're sitting listening to someone play a piano, it's supposed to transport your mind into another realm where someone is heartbroken over their lost lover.


If this is true, I'd like to hear it... and in fact, glad that you like the version with less rubato. It obstructs the sense of flow. Sure, of course music isn't set exactly to xxx bpm, but it should have the gentle ebb and flow, the up and down of gentle hills... not of the grand canyon.

Well that depends on the piece, but for me, fluidity contains the quality of feelings of grace, being content, natural progression etc. Rubato, agitation, accents etc. are tools to convey things like sorrow, anger, regret etc. they are the seeds to convey a sense of: something is NOT okay here, I'm saying something that's outside the realm of "okay". Of course this is my opinion, but when I applied the rubato to this piece, yes I went heavy, because I think LVB really did struggle with this recurring thought in his head and it tormented him, just like it tormented some individuals to listen to my rendition. They think it sounds psychotic? GOOD, because it is, all 3 movements, that's what it's about, in my opinion it's not supposed to be a nice fluid flowing, moon shining on the lake at night crap. Curse the bastard that even came up with that. But alas, the alarms go off when the next note in the piece is delayed. My rendition was intended to throw people off. If they don't like it, that's 100% fine with me, but I like it, and I play for me. Having said that, if I weren't feeling so particularly cynical at the time of the recording, I would have probably done less, but not eliminate it.


You see, a few people in the past (won't mention names), [cough, cough...

MICHAEL SAYERS...]

...have tried to use excessive rubato as a cover for not being able to feel the inner flow of the music. It's the same with people who use too much body movement when playing simple pieces. They think that if they look like they need an exorcism, they're just really emotionally connected with the piece... however, that's bollocks.

Now here you said something that interests me. If people use too much body movement and don't connect to the audience, yes they look silly, but I would atleast grant them my honest effort to understand what they're saying.

I want to come out and say that, when I play, I don't think of music, tones, timing etc. I go strictly on shapes. In my head, I envision the "shape" of the sound the composer was going for, and draw that shape infront of me, with all of the "sharp edges" being the keys being struck. This sounds weird, but I believe music to be just shapes that we can't see, but rather hear. For example, on the Un Sospiro I simply draw shapes with my fingers and hands. I draw the 3-syllable name in the arpeggios, I shape the melodic line as a voice, as Liszt wrote, and it sounds (in my opinion) "alive". Sometimes I'm completely still still, sometimes I rock back and forth, sometimes I'm all over the place, but one thing I never try to be guilty of is being tense in any way shape or form. Tension really, really kills music. You can't make round shapes with a straight edge. Unfortunately, as it happens, music is organized into rigid lines, bars etc. but there are profound shapes contained within. The above gets into why I think I see music a bit differently than some, I don't have any musical training, I simply employ the tactic of drawing shapes. When Un Sospiro is up you'll see what I mean. It looks bizarre, I recorded myself already and thought to myself, it doesn't even look like your touching the piano, my hands are often slightly below eye level.




good question.

I have been there... I am trying very hard not to quarrel but to simply interject facts to try and be the voice of reason.  This kind of thinking can get seriously out of hand.   The brain is a funny thing especially when it rewires itself.

thejeev said in an earlier post that it was also "very scary."  This statement concerned me most of all.



I second the poster before you. If you really just think I'm some idiot who talks crap, ignore me, go teach, go play, read a book, I'm here to talk to people who I alteast feel would have the ability to see where I'm coming from. You're obviously not this kind of person, you'd rather just continue to try and discredit me, feel good about yourself, seek appraisal from your friends and point out errors I made that have nothing to do with the substance of my claim. Your behaviour is that of a schoolyard bully, you like to be that "voice of reason", prove why you're superior, why everyone else is nothing. For the amount of "nonsense" I've been throwing out, you've sure invested a lot of time responding to it. It's either there's a part of you that is hanging on the idea that, well maybe there is something to this, or you just like to remain king of the hill in your own world.

Please, if I'm not connecting to you in any sort of meaningful way, just stay out of my threads, I don't barge into yours and criticize you, your thoughts and ideas. I'm not going to waste my time further saying the same thing over and over to someone who has the agenda of preserving their own image and superiority. If you were truly in a state of superiority, you would ignore small fries like me, and occupy your time with more meaningful endeavours. If the best use of your time is correcting someone on a boat vs. plane, then just simply say that, in the thread or pm me.

If I'm really just a crazy know-nothing, don't waste anymore of your precious time. Atleast wait until I post a vid, then there will be a whole other medium of things to bash on me about. Sounds like a good weekday evening activity, no?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #27 on: February 17, 2016, 12:36:49 AM
What misinformation? Are you on about that boat and plane thing again? If so, then yes, but everything else I said stands

you asked us to imagine we were Rach-- we write the 3rd Concerto to explode onto the scene...we practice on the plane ride over...   this was your "vision" and it is clearly in contrast to historical fact.

the 3rd Concerto was written in 1908... when  Rach was a happy-go-lucky Russian before the Revolution that forced him into exile... it was clearly not written to "explode onto the scene" in the US as your "abilities" suggested.   He had no intentions of leaving his beloved homeland at that time... he was part of the aristocracy.  

as for the plane ride...  that's so seriously out of the chronological realm of possibility it need not be repeated.   How do you think he got a silent piano keyboard on a plane in 1918?


so now you were saying...  yes that part was wrong but everything else is right.   When you posted the original statement you were quite sure you were correct... it was only verifiable historical fact that made you concede.  In fact you at first, told me my facts were incorrect and I looked ridiculous. (For the record... that was a pretty ballsy thing to say to a f@$king piano teacher who was born into a family of PILOTS and learned to fly at 12 years old. lol)

So now how can you be SO sure that the rest of your vision is accurate?   I am not saying it is out of the realm of possibility--I am just saying... how do YOU know and what possible evidence can you provide to support these claims... ???  How can you also expect anyone to take you seriously?

I have already shown your statements to be verifiably incorrect and called your abilities into objective question... now the burden of proof is on you.  You are asking us to "believe" something that has been shown to be false.

.




please answer the above questions instead of the post I wrote to another member.

why do you not address these issues?   now you are accusing me of "sport"?  you have already attacked my playing, told me that in spite of my decades of experience, I couldn't possibly understand this, and that this is some universal language but yet not one other is capable of understanding it but you.

you were clearly stating part of your "vision" when you posted about the 3rd concerto...  it was only later that you insisted that you had read it after your analysis was proven to be in direct contrast to known historical fact... and even then you were insistent that I was ridiculous.

you are funny.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #28 on: February 17, 2016, 01:14:55 AM

please answer the above questions instead of the post I wrote to another member.

why do you not address these issues?   now you are accusing me of "sport"?  you have already attacked my playing, told me that in spite of my decades of experience, I couldn't possibly understand this, and that this is some universal language but yet not one other is capable of understanding it but you.

you were clearly stating part of your "vision" when you posted about the 3rd concerto...  it was only later that you insisted that you had read it after your analysis was proven to be in direct contrast to known historical fact... and even then you were insistent that I was ridiculous.

you are funny.



Listen, the point is:

Rach used his 3rd to become reputable and noticed in the US, he wasn't yet.
He practiced on some make-shift flat keyboard, probably drawn out, to practice the fingerings.
He wasn't on a plane, it was a boat instead. But damn that's so important!
I did NOT attack your playing. I was careful with my words, I said I didn't care for it. I didn't say it was bad. I didn't say it sucked. In fact YOU were the one who claimed to be able to "play circles around me", so if anything, you attacked me before even hearing me. Shame on you for claiming that I "attacked" you when I was actually being considerate. This must have escaped you, as other things seem to.
Finally, nothing of importance was "proven" to be in direct contrast of anything. He had "blaw blaw" on the mind when writing it. That's why it sounds so epic, that's why the ending is a triumph, the final conclusion to the battle. It's all happening in all of our heads when we hear the piece, we just don't realize it. It's a feud, it's not meant to be taken so seriously as most people play it, that's why Rach plays it so fast, it's supposed to be almost playful. He wanted a showpiece, something to prove he was the best. He was meticulous with his compositions, with all his performances, he knew what he wanted.

As an aside, I posted in the non-piano thread of a small analysis of a contemporary song to try and demonstrate that yes, indeed, real words can, have, and will, continue to inspire real music. My analysis will demonstrate what I mean by, music isn't music to me anymore, it's just real words caught in an obscure form in which our minds can only decipher the tone they carry. My claim is, something in my brain is putting everything back into the real words that inspired the work. I hope this makes my position more clear.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #29 on: February 17, 2016, 02:12:32 AM
. He had "blaw blaw" on the mind when writing it.


 ....back into the real words that inspired the work. I hope this makes my position more clear.

that is crazy.  there is no possible way to know that--that is known as "magical thinking" and it is part of a self-reinforcing delusion...   

sometimes works were not inspired by words... sometimes they were written out of necessity...or for a commission.   There is no magical language within music...  what's magic is being able to play it.


in spite of what you may think of my playing... or your own.. I do play circles around you and you know it... you are the only person of the opinion that you play "better" than I do...--there is someone else in your past or present who also played better than you... that is why you are creating a "magical" ability that makes you a great musician in your own mind.   Because you cannot play it... you will find some other way to prove your worthiness.

it's textbook...and it happens a whole lot.  Look it up.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #30 on: February 17, 2016, 04:16:12 AM
that is crazy.  there is no possible way to know that--that is known as "magical thinking" and it is part of a self-reinforcing delusion...  

It is possible to know, refer to my other thread about that song, and actually read and listen. If you still can't spot it, then there's no chance you'll be able to spot it in anything classical or romantic.

sometimes works were not inspired by words... sometimes they were written out of necessity...or for a commission.   There is no magical language within music...  what's magic is being able to play it.

Sometimes yes I agree, but ROMANTIC works (which is what I'm talking about, not typical classical based on form or commission) actually are based on real thoughts. I wish you would be able to make the distinction.

in spite of what you may think of my playing... or your own.. I do play circles around you and you know it... you are the only person of the opinion that you play "better" than I do...--there is someone else in your past or present who also played better than you... that is why you are creating a "magical" ability that makes you a great musician in your own mind.   Because you cannot play it... you will find some other way to prove your worthiness.

I never said I played better than you, how well someone plays can be entirely subjective. What I DIDN'T do was critisize your playing, or claim to play better than you as you did, and still are. I'm not creating any ability, it's there in the music, if you can't hear it, I'm sorry. I'm not here to prove anything about myself, I'm here to talk about music. You seem to be here to talk about how special you think you are, and like to argue for sport. I hope you're having fun with that, and it makes you feel good.


it's textbook...and it happens a whole lot.  Look it up.

Stop projecting your thoughts about yourself back at me. Happens all the time, people criticize others for faults they themselves possess. It's textbook, look it up.

Offline mjames

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #31 on: February 17, 2016, 04:25:02 AM
lol i love threads like these. theyre so delicious.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #32 on: February 17, 2016, 04:37:30 AM

I apologize.  Whatever your skills may be I wish you the best with them and all future endeavors.  You are absolutely right, I don't understand.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #33 on: February 17, 2016, 04:47:10 AM
I apologize.  Whatever your skills may be I wish you the best with them and all future endeavors.  You are absolutely right, I don't understand.

I tried to make you understand by posting the most basic and obvious example of real words being translated into music in the non-piano forum. If you're seriously telling me, you read the thread, listened to the song and piad careful attention to the timestamps, and still can't hear it, then one of two things must be true:

i) You didn't try/Don't hear it
ii) I actually am part of a small minority of indivuals that can discern real words in music.

That's why I asked the question in the thread, do others hear this too? I seriously want to know now; if people really are oblivious to these sorts of things within music? If so, that's scary, not for my sake, but for everyone else's.

I know how you love to attack people who make such claims, so be my guest. But the extent to which you think I'm delusional,  to the same extent I can't believe people don't hear this, and what world they are living in if they don't see these simple patterns in music.

Offline emill

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #34 on: February 17, 2016, 05:09:25 AM
Often the challenge for an obviously overplayed piece which has been used too often in horror movies and associated with "dracula" is to bring back the original intent or mood of the composer and perhaps add a bit of freshness into it.  Most will not even attempt that with this piece as it has undergone "too many styles and versions" through the decades and introducing some "freshness" is just too much effort.

When my son played this piece in a recital here in Manila last May 2015 (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58488.0), he chose it because it is really popular with the general public and decided to just limit his attempt to play it well and as closely to what probably the composer intended.

I think the poster, thejeev, merely wanted to introduce his brand of "freshness" into the piece which obviously did not sit well with some here.  Personally I just view it as something somewhat different from the usual.  My advantage is, I am not a pianist and my mind has not been framed to some extent by the "rules" of piano playing. The bliss of ignorance, sort of, and will only react to how the music affects my soul.  I must say I was able to listen to the whole piece and found the variance interesting and not repulsive.  JUST MY TAKE. ;D ;) :)
member on behalf of my son, Lorenzo

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #35 on: February 17, 2016, 05:49:09 AM
Often the challenge for an obviously overplayed piece which has been used too often in horror movies and associated with "dracula" is to bring back the original intent or mood of the composer and perhaps add a bit of freshness into it.  Most will not even attempt that with this piece as it has undergone "too many styles and versions" through the decades and introducing some "freshness" is just too much effort.

When my son played this piece in a recital here in Manila last May 2015 (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=58488.0), he chose it because it is really popular with the general public and decided to just limit his attempt to play it well and as closely to what probably the composer intended.

I think the poster, thejeev, merely wanted to introduce his brand of "freshness" into the piece which obviously did not sit well with some here.  Personally I just view it as something somewhat different from the usual.  My advantage is, I am not a pianist and my mind has not been framed to some extent by the "rules" of piano playing. The bliss of ignorance, sort of, and will only react to how the music affects my soul.  I must say I was able to listen to the whole piece and found the variance interesting and not repulsive.  JUST MY TAKE. ;D ;) :)

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate your thoughts.

This is the most intelligent post I've seen, I appreciate how you have the ability to approach music from an "ignorant" perspective, because that's how a typical listener perceives it. The problem with most musicians, and this is true for some individuals on this board, is that they are stuck within the realm of music from a history/theory/educator perspective, and it really starts interfering with what matters, the music!

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #36 on: February 17, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I tried to make you understand by posting the most basic and obvious example of real words being translated into music in the non-piano forum. If you're seriously telling me, you read the thread, listened to the song... and still can't hear it, then one of two things must be true:

i) You didn't try/Don't hear it
ii) I actually am part of a small minority of indivuals that can discern real words in music.

Either 1 of 2 things must be true...

1) By telling us we didn't hear it, or we didn't bother trying insults our intelligence, given that our jobs (for a lot of the users here) is to teach music - to give it life and soul. You imply that we're either ignorant, lazy or too stupid to hear what you supposedly hear.

-----OR-----

2) By some coincidence the words you wrote down seem to be thoughts you seem to associate with the music, but because they came from your imagination is just your feelings towards the music. No one else can finely tune into your thought process, and no one can feel exactly what you felt as you heard them... but as I said - what you've written simply seems to be your thoughts and feelings towards the pieces...

... but this does not mean that what you feel and describe is what Rachmaninoff or Beethoven (or whoever the original composer of the pieces you are describing) felt. To claim that what you feel is the unique and ONLY way to truly understand these pieces, is insulting to every member here.

The problem with most musicians, and this is true for some individuals on this board, is that they are stuck within the realm of music from a history/theory/educator perspective, and it really starts interfering with what matters, the music!

Okay... considering I was about to leave it with my previous statement... that last statement is the worst, most hypocritical insult of all - especially from you. No offense, but you've put one single recording on which was a very jerky, and very lumpy recording of one of the greatest compositional pieces in history.

The users here have put many recordings of fully thought, emotionally intriguing recordings... and a lot of the users here have spent many hours, days, weeks trying to learn not just the notes, but to take the written music and turn it into a unique, heartfelt performance that although may have taken inspiration from other great performers, has also tried to pour their own life experiences into shaping the piece to their liking.

You have no basis in trying to lecture the users on this forum and therefore can't really understand the music, especially considering that you seem to have little understanding about the:

history/theory/educator perspective

...yourself, given that you don't know the groundwork these works were based upon, or the eras they were written in.

I think in stating your comments, you've pretty much insulted every piano teacher, or professional here... and given your only recording, I'm just going to assume your ignorance about the subject simply comes from ... your ignorance about the subject.

You really can't be taken seriously any more... and I will dismiss you as a crank... simply a crank.

I don't barge into yours and criticize you, your thoughts and ideas.

No, you've insulted us instead. You started it... I will end it.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #37 on: February 17, 2016, 12:18:26 PM
Either 1 of 2 things must be true...

1) By telling us we didn't hear it, or we didn't bother trying insults our intelligence, given that our jobs (for a lot of the users here) is to teach music - to give it life and soul. You imply that we're either ignorant, lazy or too stupid to hear what you supposedly hear.

I was talking about the contemporary song in the other thread, not the other interpretations I posted. I was making a point that, if you still can't hear the very obvious example I provided in that thread, then I'm at a loss for words.

-----OR-----

2) By some coincidence the words you wrote down seem to be thoughts you seem to associate with the music, but because they came from your imagination is just your feelings towards the music. No one else can finely tune into your thought process, and no one can feel exactly what you felt as you heard them... but as I said - what you've written simply seems to be your thoughts and feelings towards the pieces...

It's not my thoughts, my feelings. I don't look at a piece and play it based on how I feel, it's not MY thought process I want others to tune into, it's the thought process of the composer. My thoughts, feelings etc. have nothing to do with what I extract from music.

... but this does not mean that what you feel and describe is what Rachmaninoff or Beethoven (or whoever the original composer of the pieces you are describing) felt. To claim that what you feel is the unique and ONLY way to truly understand these pieces, is insulting to every member here.

I did not, nor did I intend to, insult anyone. I didn't even suggest how the composers were FEELING, I was merely making a case for what they were SAYING. The tone that accompanies that, that's up to you. If you and I both read a line from Shakespear, we would perform it differently, but the words are the same. Music is the same, I'm not telling anyone how to "interpret" pieces, I'm suggesting what the composers are actually trying to accomplish. You can take it from that point on and go nuts with it.

Okay... considering I was about to leave it with my previous statement... that last statement is the worst, most hypocritical insult of all - especially from you. No offense, but you've put one single recording on which was a very jerky, and very lumpy recording of one of the greatest compositional pieces in history.

I don't know what you mean by jerky and lumpy, but if you mean to say, it doesn't sound like most renditions you've heard, then that makes me happy. Also your last point is debatable, LVB himself said of the piece "surely I've written better things". This piece was never intended to be a "masterpiece", it's exactly what I said it is, just a stupid voice in his head.

The users here have put many recordings of fully thought, emotionally intriguing recordings... and a lot of the users here have spent many hours, days, weeks trying to learn not just the notes, but to take the written music and turn it into a unique, heartfelt performance that although may have taken inspiration from other great performers, has also tried to pour their own life experiences into shaping the piece to their liking.

I did not single out any individual here. At worst, I said I "didn't care for" others' playing. I don't care how long people have studied music. In fact I don't know what the above has anything to do with anything? If you're trying to explain to me that people are really really sensitive about music, yeah, I get that.

You have no basis in trying to lecture the users on this forum and therefore can't really understand the music, especially considering that you seem to have little understanding about the:

...yourself, given that you don't know the groundwork these works were based upon, or the eras they were written in.

So, you're saying, because I didn't take lessons, I can't intuitively pick up on things? I can't be born with a predisposition that can manifest in a weird way? Everything in life has to be earned fairly? I missed the part in life where everything was fair.

I think in stating your comments, you've pretty much insulted every piano teacher, or professional here... and given your only recording, I'm just going to assume your ignorance about the subject simply comes from ... your ignorance about the subject.

I didn't insult anyone or anything, and I've taken a lot more criticism than I've offered. In fact, I have yet to see someone directly refute any of my analysis from a musical perspective. I'd love to hear a REAL reason about why I'm wrong other than "you don't know music because you didn't study it". And I'm NOT talking about boats and planes.

You really can't be taken seriously any more... and I will dismiss you as a crank... simply a crank.

You speak as though I was ever taken seriously in the first place lol. You can dismiss me as anything you'd like, have fun "learning" music.


No, you've insulted us instead. You started it... I will end it.

I didn't insult anyone, maybe the weight of what I am proposing is insulting you personally, for that I'm not responsible. If you think what I'm saying is actually nonsense, just ignore it.

My repies are bolded above.

Let me ask you this:

If I produced a recording of the Rach 3 Ossia Cadenza, that demonstrates the obvious fued that I'm talking about, that's faster than any version you've heard (because all versions in existence are too slow to really bring out the feud), would you take me seriously?

In fact, in the movie "Shine" Helfgott recorded a rendition of the cadenza that was technically flawless, rhythm nearly flawless, the only problem was, it was so damn slow, the whole thing sounds like a muffled distant record player that's almost running out of batteries (slloowww). If I did this, would you concede that I in fact do possess some musical ability? Or do you think it's normal for someone from the street to just bust out this cadenza as if it's nothing? You tell me.

In that same movie, the piano instructor said "just think supremacy". He's talking about the feud, the constant back and forth. He's telling David you need to start small, and don't let the piece overtake you. The instinct is to build too quickly and leave nothing for the end. He said you have to "tame" the piano or it will swallow you whole. He's talking about keeping your wits about you, not to lose control. The cadenza, along with the entire concerto, is based on this idea of supremacy, constant feud.

If you're going to tell me that producing a recording of this nature wouldn't prove anything to you, then I'm obviously on the wrong forum.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #38 on: February 17, 2016, 01:32:29 PM
Given that you claim to know the exact thought process of the composer as he wrote these pieces, despite the fact that they died a long time ago, and there's no written evidence or physical evidence depicting exactly what they were thinking for each melodic phrase, then no offense - you are clearly a nutter. You cannot possibly know exactly what they were thinking as they wrote it...

There are people who claim they can speak and tune into the thoughts of the dead... we call these people psychics, and all of whom are scientifically proven to be frauds.

Your statement here:

The problem with most musicians, and this is true for some individuals on this board, is that they are stuck within the realm of music from a history/theory/educator perspective, and it really starts interfering with what matters, the music!

Is CLEARLY an insult to those who take music professionally. If you can't see how you've insulted this board, then you may just be too stupid to realise what you implied (whether you meant to imply it or not).

That's why I asked the question in the thread, do others hear this too? I seriously want to know now; if people really are oblivious to these sorts of things within music? If so, that's scary, not for my sake, but for everyone else's.

This was the wrong question to ask. You've automatically assumed that what you hear is correct and that those who cannot hear it must either be emotionally or cognitively untuned or (metaphorically) deaf to it. You can't assume that you are right as no one has fully agreed with ANYTHING you said. That's like me saying:

That's why I asked the question in the thread, do others see Pink flying unicorn all across the land? I seriously want to know now; if people really are oblivious to these sorts of things within the world? If so, that's scary, not for my sake, but for everyone else's.

If one person sees something, but no one else can perceive it, or corroborate it, or even prove it, then no offense, one has to agree that they individual is incorrect, given the utter lack of proof.

You've claimed to be the only person to fully understand the thoughts of composers during their compositions, long after their dead. Nothing you say or post now will restore they smallest shred of dignity you had when you posted your first thread.

So, you're saying, because I didn't take lessons, I can't intuitively pick up on things? I can't be born with a predisposition that can manifest in a weird way?

I never said you weren't allowed an opinion... I think you are capable of creating your own reflections. Your ability to CLAIM you know exactly what Liszt (in the case of your Un Sospiro rant) was thinking when he wrote this composition is bat-sh*t crazy. I read it as it was your original post, and took it seriously upon the first initial reading, but the more I went through it - it simply seemed to be nothing but conjecture and unproven claims.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #39 on: February 17, 2016, 01:58:34 PM
The "evidence" is in the music, I attempted to use every single marking, dynamic etc. to make the case. It's not my fault if one can't put the pieces together as I have. As I said, it's a puzzle, not everyone is good at solving puzzles. When it comes to theory of mind puzzles, I happen to be very good.

I'm not claiming to be able to tune into the toughts of the dead. Yes "psychics", astrologists etc. are all frauds, I know this. Just like that other big fraud, religion. I don't know if religion is forbidden on this forum so I'll retract my last statement but forget to remove it by accident.

My comment wasn't an insult. I didn't blame anyone for not being able to see music because of a fault of their own. I simply said that, once you operate within the realm of music as a professional, they're much more likely to miss the, I'll use the phrase, intricate simplicity, of music. You don't need to be over-educated to understand music. Music wasn't written for educated people, in fact it was written for mostly common folk. What I want you to understand is that, in your world, I'm blind to the "technicalities" of music. In my world, some people here are blind to the "simplicity" of music. Romantic music isn't supposed to be complicated.

What I "hear" in the song I posted in the other thread, is not simply what "I" hear, but I actually derive the entire music background from the 3 words contained in the title. I point out where these words occur, and in what instruments. I tried to use this as a SIMPLE example of words serving as inspiration for music. Seriously, I went to a *** alt band, that's how low I went, to try and prove my point. And if you're saying you STILL can't hear how the music reflects the words in my non-piano post, then this ultimately proves that people actually are clueless to this. That's not meant to sound offensive, it's going to make my job harder.

Now in the case of Un Sospiro, my translations were in fact a bit off, and I did not correct them. The real translations don't make 100% sense in English, for example:

I have for you
A big surprise

But it must have made sense in Liszt's language.

You say that claiming to know what Liszt meant when he wrote the Etude is "bat-sh-t" crazy, is actually true. It must sound crazy to you, and to everyone else. But guess what, in my world, the clarity is immense, it CAN be proven (I may not have done this in a convincing way, but it is definitely within the realm of possibility, just because nobody has attempted it before doesn't mean it can't be done) I'm not reaching, I'm not filling in gaps, it's all there, in the music. You'll only see if if you consider every accent, marking, every piece of the puzzle, contemplate it's meaning. Don't just play what's written, understand what's written.

And the cadenza?

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #40 on: February 17, 2016, 10:03:24 PM
You know what...

You're credibility and integrity are down the toilet, and you sound like a raving lunatic, you post what you want.

If you wanted people to take you seriously - you went about it the wrong way.

And if you're saying you STILL can't hear how the music reflects the words in my non-piano post, then this ultimately proves that people actually are clueless to this.

No... you are delusional. I bring your attention back to this delightful story.

That's why I asked the question in the thread, do others see Pink flying unicorn all across the land? I seriously want to know now; if people really are oblivious to these sorts of things within the world? If so, that's scary, not for my sake, but for everyone else's.

If one person sees something, but no one else can perceive it, or corroborate it, or even prove it, then no offense, one has to agree that they individual is incorrect, given the utter lack of proof.

Where's your proof???

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #41 on: February 17, 2016, 11:09:06 PM
perfect_pitch

I openly came here stating I was not a trained pianist. I never claimed to have "credibility", I sound like a raving lunatic to you, perhaps to others, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not what I'm presenting is TRUE or FALSE. If consensus were the only game in town, pioneers which helped create modern society would have been killed/eliminated (which they were, extensively for decades) by people with minds like yours (oh gee this person sounds nuts, and they're also threating my self-esteem and confidence, engaging attack mode). I wish you would drop this credibility nonsense, I never claimed rights to it.

Back to that song in the non-piano post, answer me this. Did you read it thouroughly, comprehend it (you know, understand it, not believe it, merely understand it), listen to the song, apply what I said, and still fail to see it?

If the answer is yes, I have absolutely no interest in engaging further, because the patterns I have laid out in that thread are there, it my world, crystal clear and plain as day. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. We can't see dark matter in the universe, we know it's there because there is invisible mass responsible for shaping galaxies. We know it's there because of the signatures it produces. It's all patterns, extrapolating from what you have to work with. I'm not an astro-physicist, nor musician, nor anything of note, but one thing I am sure of is, music is shapes that we can't see, but can only sense audibly. Words are shapes that we can't see, but sense audibly. When a composer writes a work based on words, I can find them (perhaps not always, but if the work is concise, you'll bet your you know what I'll find them: Rach and Liszt seem to resonate with me naturally). I was careful to claim that this is ONLY possible for romantic-type works. In the non-piano thread, just because there are a few dozen views and no responses, doesn't mean people read it fully, comprehended it, and decided that it was nonsense. If they think that, they can either post as such, or ask for clarification on ANYTHING I've presented to date, and I will detail further, in any method at my disposal agreeable to them. I'll go on Skype, answer any single question raised, the obstacle here is getting people to "tune in", it's a one-time stop. Once you hear it, you're suddenly in the zone, and everything becomes clear. I want others to experience what I have experienced. Whether or not this is agreeable to you personally has no bearing on whether or not it's possible and/or true.

Here's a pretty useful example I'll borrow from the author Richard Dawkins (believe it or not I read stuff, and learn, and think, and wonder. You know what that's like, right?). We can't prove that there is not a teapot orbiting Jupiter. Science only has something to say about how likely it is, that is is very highly unlikely. Science can't tell us that it's false to a certainty, there is absolutely no way with current technology to disprove such a claim. My claim, to individuals like you, sounds highly "unlikely". This I happily grant, but to call me out on "credibility" and not deconstructing any single one of my propositions says a bit about what your agenda is.

If you feel I haven't "provided enough proof", I simply restate, what evidence can one provide to another who doesn't/is unable to value evidence? It means absolutely nothing to them, not becase the evidence isn't there, but because they are unable to reconcile that with their own stubborn agenda of maintaining their own self-reassurance and superiority, given they probably invested a lot of resources to reach where they are, they don't want some Joe coming in and making these claims without a fight.

If you do stop by that non-piano thread and have another look, and it clues in, we'll go from there. If that never happens, you and I are wasting our time with each other. All I will say is, the grass is greener on this side of the fence, I hope you'll join me sometime.

I'll await your general "well but you just sound crazy, I don't like you" reply.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #42 on: February 18, 2016, 10:24:07 AM
perfect pitch

if I am not mistaken in addition to professionally transcribing music aren't you also a composer? perhaps you would allow a translation of one of your pieces by the jeev... if in fact you have a piece that you have composed with a specific thematic/lyric correlation...

jeev:  

now... so if the music was inspired by a set of lyrics and it ended up an instrumental... you should be able to extrapolate these lyrics, right?  because that was the original inspiration for the melody... and theme?  would that be a correct assessment?

What about a 'tone poem' shouldn't you be able to extrapolate the original poem that inspired it?


what about a programmatic work like the Sorcerer's Apprentice?  would you get the story without knowing about it beforehand?

I am not attacking... just trying to understand and if you could demonstrate any one of the above feats.. I will be a believer.

do you have absolute pitch as well?


would your ability stand up to the scientific method ?  we can use a third party to hold the lyrics... as a control measure.

 8)

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #43 on: February 18, 2016, 11:00:28 AM

. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

then conversely just because you do see it doesn't mean it is there either.

people misperceive information on a regular basis




Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #44 on: February 18, 2016, 11:05:05 AM
Hey... that's not fair. I did not say you sounded crazy...

I said you WERE crazy (well, delusional, but potato, tomato).

if I am not mistaken in addition to professionally transcribing music aren't you also a composer?

Unfortunately, I'm not really a composer. The closest I came was doing a remix of Mozart, and that's it. I'm far superior at arranging music.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #45 on: February 18, 2016, 01:48:00 PM
perfect pitch

if I am not mistaken in addition to professionally transcribing music aren't you also a composer? perhaps you would allow a translation of one of your pieces by the jeev... if in fact you have a piece that you have composed with a specific thematic/lyric correlation...

jeev:  

now... so if the music was inspired by a set of lyrics and it ended up an instrumental... you should be able to extrapolate these lyrics, right?  because that was the original inspiration for the melody... and theme?  would that be a correct assessment?

Yes it would, but I need to stress one thing again. My ability to discern a "specific" message is completely dependent on the composers' use of markings, dynamics, expression etc. If a composer just thought of a generic sentence, attributed random notes to it with next to no expression, it will be impossible to tell what he/she is saying. Honestly the best route for me to go about proving this is possible is sticking to music that is as expressive as possible, written by a creative mind.

My point is, composers like Rach and Liszt, they were so meticulous with their markings, their attention to detail was so fine that you can in fact reduce their work back into a basic idea.

I will also come out here and state, that my analysis of the gminor prelude is in fact (I use the word fact here) correct. "Pabrota" is the words contained within the theme and accompanying "snare drum" sounds. I was playing it today, but instead of playing what one normally hears as the gminor prelude, I was actually using the piano to "pronounce the words", which if you care to look closely at the markings, this is precisely what Rach is doing, emphasizing the pronunciation of "pabrota" in a Russian accent. It's very scary, hearing the "voice" of a 16-year-old Rach complain about work. But it get's scarier. In Rach's own recording, he actually "rolls" chords that are not even marked as a roll. Why is he doing this? He's pronouncing the word "pabrota", in the middle section. Go see if you can spot it yourself.


What about a 'tone poem' shouldn't you be able to extrapolate the original poem that inspired it?

Again, it depends on how meticulous the expression is, and how coherent and human-like the emotion is, but unless I knew the tone poem were of a romantic nature and I wanted to know about that composer, I wouldn't be interested in any case. I want to know what these romantic composers were saying.

what about a programmatic work like the Sorcerer's Apprentice?  would you get the story without knowing about it beforehand?

The above would apply here as well.

I am not attacking... just trying to understand and if you could demonstrate any one of the above feats.. I will be a believer.

I can, and will demonstrate them, to a certainty. I have reached out to my local university. If they get back to me I'll be preparing something for that, but until then, I'll produce something to illustrate my point in the meantime.

do you have absolute pitch as well?

It's funny you mention this. Prepare for another crazy sounding story. When I was in my car last week with the Matt Good stuff, I realized I could also pick out real words in other music, not just romantic. My listening to this music, now hearing the "music" accompany the voice, the intended impression of the song became 100% clear. So I decided to sing along. Not only did I stay on pitch, my voice sounded like an echo of his (I recorded it) and I actually matched, almost to a scary extent, his exact articulation and how he pronounced his words. I wasn't even trying to mimick him, I just let out as if I were in that situation. I didn't even feel like I was "singing", it felt more, "this is the situation I'm in, this is how I feel". I know anyone can claim to "get into" the music, and this is nothing special, but I'll also point out, I never sang a note in my life. They key to singing isn't notes or vocals, it's making your audience understand how you feel, and if your "tone" matches the lyrics and infuses them with MEANING. Singing off key is the easiest way to "lose" your audience because they get immediately distracted.

would your ability stand up to the scientific method ?  we can use a third party to hold the lyrics... as a control measure.

Not only will it, it will be so. More on this below.

 8)

Responses in bold above.

So my biggest problem is, currently I only have a digital piano. My only means of recording it is a mono cable, which does not capture the background resonance of the notes being played. It sounds like a midi file, so to speak. When I play I rely on controlling the "vibrations" to a meticulous level, and this was not heard in my Moonlight. Or, you know, the O Ludvig piece.

I wish I had a real piano to demonstrate, which is why I contacted the university.

The sound my keyboard makes only "mimicks" the resonance of a real piano, but nonetheless I can still produce very convincing sounds. Of course the other issue is, the keys are broken and sometimes come out way too loud. When I am playing as though to really pronounce real words, I try to be extremely meticulous, and a random loud note completely kills it instantly. Imagine someone having a pleasant conversation with you, you're listening intently and all of a sudden they shout one of their words. You stop taking them serious.

In any event, I will try to find a good microphone somewhere and record the whole room. When these composers wrote their pieces, they came up with ways to "make the piano talk" through use of a carefully mapped sequence of vibrations creating by striking strings in a particular manner. In order to do that, you need a real acoustic piano obviously, but I will try to show an example of what I'm talking about here shortly.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #46 on: February 18, 2016, 02:48:17 PM
I'll also add one more note here.

If anyone picked up on my comment above about "mimicking a real spoken word", I am doing the same thing in my recording, except I'm thinking "O Ludvig". If you tread the triplets as such, the voice as such, the bass as such, and pay attention to where I put the rubato you all hate, I am "mimicking" a real, almost cynical and tourmenting voice. Now an adagio with few notes you 're not going to actually hear "Oh Ludvig" though I tried in some places (I must admit this wasn't at the forefront of my mind at the time, it should have been), Liszt and Rach use a lot more notes and are more expressive. For example, Beethoven uses 3 notes to signify a name. Liszt uses 18 notes along with articulation and direction. Obviously Liszt's is easier to pinpoint. Now Beethoven's 3rd movement, he uses A LOT of notes to pronounce the name over and over really quickly, which was pretty integral to tracing that name back into the other movements and finding simpler iterations of them.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #47 on: February 18, 2016, 03:01:06 PM
 My ability to discern a "specific" message is completely dependent on the composers' use of markings, dynamics, expression etc.


you really didn't study music at all did you.   You have no idea how wrong this statement is.

Offline thejeev

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #48 on: February 18, 2016, 03:23:49 PM
My ability to discern a "specific" message is completely dependent on the composers' use of markings, dynamics, expression etc.


you really didn't study music at all did you.   You have no idea how wrong this statement is.

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about here. You're telling me an unmarked melody is and can be as expressive as one containing dynamics and articulation? I'm not sure if you somehow misunderstood what I wrote, nor did you explain how my statement was "wrong". Dynamics, articulation, rhythm, are tools for expression. Pre-romantic, the "scope" of expression was severly limited. How does one express anger on a harpsichord? Other than breaking it or selling it and buying a piano?

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Quasi Una Fantasia Movement I L.V.B.
Reply #49 on: February 18, 2016, 03:29:45 PM
I have absolutely no idea what you're on about here.

that's why I know you are full of baloney.  I have been playing for 47 years... gimmie just a little credit Maestro.
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