:-)<<<!!!!FYI, great playlist by women composers, some rare recordings!!!!>>>:-)

[visitor]

just tossing it out there for those likeminded folks like me that appreciate the less common. I must admit as well versed as I am on these matters, a few of these were unknown to me, perhaps names in passing or reference but had not yet heard recordings of anything by some of these ladies.
this is great music, glad i found it and wanted to pass along  in case anyone else cares to add to their listening archives

Rosario Marciano plays Piano Works by Women Composers

Rosario Marciano (1944-1998), Bösendorfer piano
Transferred from LP published by Turnabout (TV 34685) in 1979

Elisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre (1659-1729):
00:00 Rondeau in G minor
Maria Theresia von Paradis (1759-1824):
02:02 Sicilienne in E-flat major (transcription by Samuel Dushkin)
Maria Szymanowska (1789-1831):
04:05 Nocturne in A-flat major
07:04 Nocturne in B-flat major
Katharina Cibbini-Kozeluh (1790-1858):
12:20 Six Waltzes, Op. 6
Fanny Mendelssohn (1805-1847):
16:18 Prelude in E minor
Clara Schumann (1819-1896):
18:37 Variations on a theme by Robert Schumann
in F-sharp minor, Op. 20
Ingeborg von Bronsart (1840-1913):
28:00 Valse-Caprice
Agathe Backer Grøndahl (1847-1907):
31:57 Visnet (Withering Leaf), Op. 39 No. 9
32:43 Undomssang (Song of Youth), Op. 36 No. 6
Teresa Carreño (1853-1917):
33:57 Réverie-Barcarolle "Venise", Op. 33
36:46 Intermezzo-Scherzoso, Op. 34
Cécile Chaminade (1857-1944):
38:30 Air de Ballet No. 3, Pas des Escharpes, Op. 37
42:50 La Lisonjera, Op. 50
Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983):
46:10 Sicilienne
Amy Beach (1867-1944):
49:10 Improvisation, Op. 148 No. 1
Grazyna Bacewicz (1913-1969):
51:26 Kleine Triptychon (Maly Tryptyk or Small Triptych)

[adodd81802]

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[visitor]

Funny you should post this,

I came across this the other day I am currently learning the B Major Nocturne by Szymanowska. 7minutes and 4seconds in, wonderful piece in my opinion equaling to some of Chopin's work.

indeed. Maria's works are underappreciated outside of poland. I scanned a bunch of her mazurkas a while back and recall thinking how interesting they looked, the hallmarks were all there. would not doubt equal quality in her nocturne(s)

[mjames]

Maria's works are interesting sure. Rivals Chopin's own nocturnes? Yeah, maybe the ones he wrote in his teens. Seeing how she died in 1831, there's no way her works rivals with the harmonic ingenuity of Chopin's mature style. Hell I'm sorry, even teen Chopin was more harmonically adventurous. Not to mention the thematic organization is so disjointed, I'm sorry even late teen Chopin was better than that. Okay, she rivals pre-15 yr old Chopin, I'll give you that.

 You don't need to exaggerate in order to appreciate someone's work. I don't get why people need to go like "X is just as great as Bach!" when it comes to under-appreciated composers. lol

[adodd81802]

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[mjames]

Early death lol...

DISCLAIMER: THIS POST IS POINTLESS

It's not about Chopin being good at everything he did. It's just that nothing Maria wrote could ever stand in the same league of the works Chopin himself published. If you want to compare her to juvenile Chopin by all means go ahead. Just be aware that it's not a positive display of her talent, but rather a positive display of Chopin's impeccable genius; seeing as how a kid rivaled with a middle aged composer!

[visitor]

just chiming in, it's red apples and green apples.  Maria is more a Chopin predecessor, i wouldn't say worked rivaled Chopin as the style is much earlier. The compositional tradition and harmonic adventurousness just weren't there yet.
It's like trying to say, CPE Bach rivaled Late Mozart.  CPEBach was earlier, so his approach was steeped in another tradition, by the time Mozart develops his full 'powers' the language has evolved, it's an accurate comparision.

Just look at the scores, for Maria vs Fred, the textures are very different and chromaticism employed is much more liberal, even without 'hearing it' you can see different styles at play. Related, sure, but not really fair to say one vs. the other, and which is better.  They're both good in their won right. We can enjoy both (note, 'enjoy' being general, cannot say i really enjoy much of Chopin, a little here or there sure... )

[mjames]

that's certainly true, which is why i decided to disagree against "her nocturnes equaling some of Chopin's." I was about to give it to him, since I kind of hate the c minor posthumous one but lol even that one's better.

One thing I would like to point out it's not just about harmonic texture, but the ability to properly organize thematic material and the overall structure of the work. I can look at Bach and say that due to his immense ability at reconstructing motifs through subsequent variation and masterful at multiple forms, I would deem him as a superior composer (as much as I hate to rank musicians) to Chopin. Regardless of the fact that baroque hadn't ventured into lush chromatic harmonies.

Similarly, with Maria and Chopin, it's already evident that early (even pre-teen!) Chopin was far more capable in organizing his ideas than Maria ever was. It's another thing to take into account when you compare the music of others.

I enjoy listening and discovering under-appreciated composers, but I'm also honest with myself: all of Maria's compositions are inferior in craftsmanship.


I would like for Adodd to show me just which nocturne of Chopin's that Maria's apparently equals with in order for this discussion to be more fruitful.

[genosen]

Funny you should post this,

I came across this the other day I am currently learning the B Major Nocturne by Szymanowska. 7minutes and 4seconds in, wonderful piece in my opinion equaling to some of Chopin's work.

Strangely, I discovered Szymanowska's nocturnes only last week, and downloaded her two nocturnes just last weekend, so this thread is particularly coincidental 

I scanned a bunch of her mazurkas a while back and recall thinking how interesting they looked, the hallmarks were all there. would not doubt equal quality in her nocturne(s)

Would you mind sharing them? There are very little scores of her's available, even on pianophilia

Maria's works are interesting sure. Rivals Chopin's own nocturnes?

They feel more similar to the nocturnes of Field and Dobrzynski, than those of Chopin, at least for me.

[mjames]

^---agreed on John Field

[bronnestam]

Funny you should post this,

I came across this the other day I am currently learning the B Major Nocturne by Szymanowska. 7minutes and 4seconds in, wonderful piece in my opinion equaling to some of Chopin's work.

I learned it last year. It is strange that such a beautiful piece is so unknown - every person I play it for, including famous pianists and teachers, exclaim "oh, what is that? It is beautiful!" and carefully write down the name and title when I tell them.

The connection between Szymanowska and Chopin is that he was a fan of her! So there is no wonder why people think she sounds "chopinesque".

One of my favourite composers is Teresa Carreño. I am trying to learn her Ballada, which she wrote at the age of 12 ...   ... but it is awfully difficult, so it will take years. I'd like to call her style "chopin with flamenco flavour" - she was from Venezuela, so you can clearly hear the South American (Panamerican if you like) influences.

To play women composers really is a great idea if you want to show off with pieces that are not overplayed ... As I am just a mediocre amateur, I find it less inspiring to play Chopin and Beethoven pieces that have been interpreted better by 300 million other pianists (although I LOVE these composers). The main thing is that many of these women composers were neglected not because they were bad, but because they were women - which means there is a treasure here of quality music that has not been played so much. Great! (I am not trying to say that ALL women composers were fantastic, they were neither better nor worse than their male colleagues, but I think history revision has been very unfair to them. On the other hand, I also believe these days are over! Today's pianists seem to have nothing against women composers ... they just haven't heard about them ... )

[bronnestam]

And here is my latest love:

It is not very difficult, so it is a pleasure to study.

[bronnestam]

If I'll ever enter a piano competition, it would be with this one:

   That would be a knockout, I think. (If I ever learn to handle it ...) Or at least a chance to feature a remarkable piece of work, composed by a little girl from Venezuela. It think it deserves that!

[adodd81802]

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[adodd81802]

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[mjames]

Great! (I am not trying to say that ALL women composers were fantastic, they were neither better nor worse than their male colleagues, but I think history revision has been very unfair to them. On the other hand, I also believe these days are over! )

Their male contemporaries are generally better. There's nothing wrong with enjoying these composers, but saying they're just as good denies the fact that most of these women weren't allowed to study music formally and never had the chance to fully develop their talent. I argue that the ones we know about (Fanny, Clara) had immense potential but unfortunately due to circumstances (social pressures, other duties like raising families) they never got the chance to fully blossom. As a result I very much deny the assertion that these women composers were just as great as their male contemporaries.

Very much of it is still 3rd rate music (including Clara, who I love A LOT).

So what's up Adodd, you still don't want to post a nocturne?

[visitor]

If I'll ever enter a piano competition, it would be with this one:

   That would be a knockout, I think. (If I ever learn to handle it ...) Or at least a chance to feature a remarkable piece of work, composed by a little girl from Venezuela. It think it deserves that!

indeed. Teresita was incedible, let's not forget she had Gottschalk as teacher (funny how she declined lessons w Franz Liszt lol).

she wrote a great waltz which serves as a bit of an hommage to LMG.

Also worthy of note, in a truly passionate and 'romantic' slant is Dora Pejačević, this sonata from 1914 has as much pathos as anything I can think of. Heck if I didn't know any better I might confuse this for early Scriabin or Szymanowski. it's that good.

she could write smalls too, this one has some Chopin like traits

this one totally sounds like a transition period Scriabin, but still her own, lovely, really, outstanding little work

[visitor]

Strangely, I discovered Szymanowska's nocturnes only last week, and downloaded her two nocturnes just last weekend, so this thread is particularly coincidental  ;DWould you mind sharing them? There are very little scores of her's available, even on pianophiliaThey feel more similar to the nocturnes of Field and Dobrzynski, than those of Chopin, at least for me.

I will consider it. I am (under a different persona) a long time serious contributor to PP but alas, much like dear Thal and a few of us other high volume archivers/hunters/collectors, I've had to restrain the flow of many scores due to dumb heads like Marcel Mombeek at pianorarescores.com  commandeering our efforts to turn around and sell the wares bumming off our efforts. Just left a bad taste in my mouth all around.
see below for more info
 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=26903.0

[mjames]

Here's one female composer who I think rightly deserves the title of "great"

[mjames]

I can't decide which is worse: the premature death of schubert and Lily, or despite the fact that she lived a long life Clara rarely took upon herself to develop her compositional skills.

While I have managed to find dozens of male keyboard composers that equal say bach or chopin in natural pianistic skill I have yet to find a female composer that could match Clara's. Sure Ive come across awesome female composers that far surpass Clara, but they did not composer for piano and if they did,their pianistic skill didn't match Clara's. The first fugitive of this set is so beautiful...

Just thinking about Clara raising babies and playi g concerts to support her family instead of composing makes me sad.  

[adodd81802]

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[mjames]

DISCLAIMER: this reply is monotonous and pointless!

lol you took an innocent question so personally. well thanks for answering my question.

I don't think i should practice more than I already do. 4 hours a day is just too much considering I have Uni course work to handle. However I do appreciate the personal attacks  (even though I won't take it seriously, considering you dont post recordings; so for now you're all talk). I'll make sure to never ask you a question again, since you obviously don't enjoy answering them. Ciao!

PS It's more helpful if people stopped looking at it as "Chopinesque" and more of a general style that was popular during that time period: the "brillante style." Basically every popular pianist during that era employed that style into their writing. (hummel and john field concertos are good representations)

P.S.S excessive redundant verbiage doesn't make you smart and you'll prolly feel better if you stop wearing skinny jeans. (it's only fair if I attack you) xD

[adodd81802]

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[mjames]

Not exactly sure I'd call them skinny jeans on a 14 stone guy. Oh and recording post.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=59542.0   ........

It wasn't a personal attack, its in your signature, its nothing but a combination of words you have used to describe yourself. However if I had anywhere near the time of 4 hours practicing a day, I wouldnt be an average crappy pianist. Maybe focus more on your UNI work.

I have no issue with answering questions, but the quote feature is the bain of forums in my opinion which ALWAYS ends up taking the area of focus away from the original post, its unproductive. why should you care if I thought it was like Chopin, i'm not forcing my opinion on others and it was a direct response to the post not an open debate with anybody else.

You don't? Okay that's good to know.
Don't worry about what I should focus on,
It isn't relevant.
my signature has nothing to do with the conversation, there was no need to comment it. Why else would you quote if it wasn't intended as an attack on my character? (It's rhetorical, i don't really care).

Again, you're taking this too seriously. All I was doing was asking for an elaboration; to clarify you statement. Like I said before (when you decided to delete your account) it's a forum and when you post you shouldn't be surprised when others reply to you. Asking you a question doesn't mean I care about you or lose sleep over your posts; it literally takes like a min to write these. You really like saying pointless, needless etc and yet you're the one who goes off on tangents.

"her nocturnes are equal to some of chopins"
"can you explain why?"
"OH MY GOD, CAN U NOT TWIST MY WORDS? GO PRACTICE PIANO! WHY SHOULD YOU CARE ABOUT MY OPINION? IT'S NOT LIKE I WAS FORCING IT ON YOU"

rofl

Don't worry, I'll never ask you a question again.
*abandons thread*

[visitor]

[ahinton]

Here's one female composer who I think rightly deserves the title of "great"

Yes, indeed she does - and very many thanks for posting this astonishing work from a 19 year old woman - an amazing achievement by anyone's standards. Her legacy is still not yet fully appreciated but I hope very much that it will come to be so, as she so richly deserves. That she wrote what she did not only at so tender an age but always in the throes of grave illness makes her accomplishments all the more remarkable.

I strongly suspect that, on the strength of Faust et Hélène alone, Schönberg (had he known it) would have been thrilled by her immense gifts as a composer.

Best,

Alistair

[bronnestam]

Their male contemporaries are generally better. There's nothing wrong with enjoying these composers, but saying they're just as good denies the fact that most of these women weren't allowed to study music formally and never had the chance to fully develop their talent.

You misunderstood what I was writing. I wrote that the female composers were neither better nor worse than the men. This means that there is no significant difference between these groups. There is not a person in the world who can determine whether an anonymous, unknown composition is written by a man or a woman. Just as you cannot tell from a recording whether the pianist is a man or a woman, slender or fat, white or black or whatever. Maybe there is a little chance you can make a good, rough guess about the age (very young, adult, very mature), but that is all. Musical abilities simply do not have any connection to gender.   

Actually I went to a concert yesterday which did not only feature a symphony written by a woman - Louise Farrenc - but also a female conductor, Shiyeon Sun, who turned out to be very good. (The orchestra consisted mainly of young music students from all of the world, and it just happened to be that all 4 double bass players were female too, which is not that common.)

Anyway, we learned that Farrenc was one of the few women who got the opportunity to get the whole formal education in music, thanks to her supportive family, and then she also married a music publisher who made sure that all her works got published and acclaimed during her life-time. And the symphony was good job. It does not compete with the biggest works by Beethoven, because nothing does (IMO) but it was a good piece of work. My husband, who normally is not THAT interested in classical music, was very enthusiastic afterwards.

What you say here is a bit dangerous, when you use expressions as "the male contemporaries are generally better". No, not GENERALLY. What you say then is more fair, that those persons who got better opportunities to study and market their music, also achieved more success.
Again, I hoped we had left the days when musicians could dismiss some music with excuses like "I am not interested in music written by women" or "women are worse composers than men". This is, unfortunately, what could be the result of making generalizations. 

My own favourite among composers is Beethoven. This is not because he was a man. 

 

[worov]

I love Amy Beach too. Secrets is my favourite piece of her :