What's Your Method on Polyrhythms?

[xdjuicebox]

So I'm working on this right now. And I learned it. But it took wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer than I had planned for, and I don't play it perfectly 9 vs 5 or 9 vs 4, but it goes fast enough I'm just like eh....they can't tell the difference LOL. But I'd like to fix that.

Here's what I did:

-Figure out what notes go in between what
-Then try to make each part sound correctly
-Try to make both parts sound correctly together

Yeah, that's not going so well LOL it takes forever.

I'm thinking of trying (for the next polyrhythm I have to learn) to use a MIDI sample to get the idea, since it's mathematically perfect and all...

How do you guys do polyrhythms? I'd like to use more in compositions, but I'd need to be able to play them, and Scriabin's 4th has a bunch of 5's and stuff...

[perfect_pitch]

Here's what I would try. Instead of thinking about 9 vs 5 or 9 vs 4... Think of it was 3 groups of 3 vs 5 or 4.

Same thing worked for me when I was learning one of the Paganini Variations by Brahms. It was 9 against 4, and trying to do 9 vs 4 was doing my head in. Trying to do 3 lots of 3 vs 4 was MUCH simpler.

[adodd81802]

.

[adodd81802]

put the 9 notes every 4 lines and the 4 notes every line notes and work out what you got.

EDIT - 4 notes every 9 lines....and work out what you got!

Too early for me I hadn't had my coffee!

[perfect_pitch]

Are you aiming for mathetmatical evenness here?

2/3 and 3/4 (3/2 or 4/3) are the easier ones to learn and so might be worth trying out a few of them before going into more difficult ones.

There are loads of things online, such as repeated metronomes that tell you exactly where the notes go, and I watched a couple of Paul Barton / Josh Wright videos that explain it using words that may help you. Anyway here's the maths.

Find the lowest common denominator (the lowest value that both numbers can be multipled into) between the two, draw that many even lines on a piece of paper and mark out where the notes would go.

I don't know if these are common polyrhythms, this theory works much better for 2/3, 3/4  where the denominators are a bit easier to work with (2/3 is 6 and 3/4 is 12!) anyway, don't let the lines throw you off, they're just there to make sure your note spaces are even.

9/5 is 45 (5x9 / 9x5) So as 9 goes into 45 5 times, the notes will be every 5 lines apart, and 5 goes into 45 9 times, so their notes will be 9 lines apart. (I haven't checked how this will look yet when I press post, if the formatting's buggered i'll attach as an image!

1      2         3        4        5         6        7        8         9
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
1              2                3                 4                5                         

(please assume the numbers are supposed to be inline with the I's, something that's difficult to do on a computer, the 3 is off a tad!!)       

Next after this you may want to work out a sentence or something that works for you. I don't think you can really play stuff like this to the millisecond, but it hopefully maps out at least where the notes should go

I think it can be handy to compare it to leg movements, so in this i'd say Jump, hop, trip, skip, skip, trip, hop. (notice after the jump the hop, trip, skip mirror each other)

9/4 is 36 (4x9 / 9x4) so draw out 36 even lines, put the 9 notes every 4 lines and the 4 notes every line notes and work out what you got.

Maybe do the metronome marks in a different colour so you can then start a metronome and tap these beats as you see them on the paper

Or there's my way...

 

[indianajo]

I learn the right hand, perfectly. 
I learn the left hand, perfectly.
Then I put them together.  Instant polyrhythm.  No thinking required. 
All the thinking comes in the one hand alone practice.  fitting 5 notes or 7 notes in the time of 4, that requires a bit of fiddling to get it to come out right.  I never used a metronome but I could have - my internal clock is that good.  If your's is not, use a metronome for one hand practice.  Get the odd rhythms done by the time the beat comes up. 
Then play them together the way you did, separately.  See, your brain has two tracks now, instead of one. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

There's a composer at my school who wrote this piece with these insane polyrhythms so what he did was listen to a midi version of it and play it by ear lol

[adodd81802]

.

[visitor]

Or there's my way...

 

or my way 

[spenstar]

I agree with this guy. Its what my piano teacher told me to do for polyrhythms

I learn the right hand, perfectly. 
I learn the left hand, perfectly.
Then I put them together.  Instant polyrhythm.  No thinking required. 
All the thinking comes in the one hand alone practice.  fitting 5 notes or 7 notes in the time of 4, that requires a bit of fiddling to get it to come out right.  I never used a metronome but I could have - my internal clock is that good.  If your's is not, use a metronome for one hand practice.  Get the odd rhythms done by the time the beat comes up. 
Then play them together the way you did, separately.  See, your brain has two tracks now, instead of one. 

[louispodesta]

So I'm working on this right now. And I learned it. But it took wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer than I had planned for, and I don't play it perfectly 9 vs 5 or 9 vs 4, but it goes fast enough I'm just like eh....they can't tell the difference LOL. But I'd like to fix that.

Here's what I did:

-Figure out what notes go in between what
-Then try to make each part sound correctly
-Try to make both parts sound correctly together

Yeah, that's not going so well LOL it takes forever.

I'm thinking of trying (for the next polyrhythm I have to learn) to use a MIDI sample to get the idea, since it's mathematically perfect and all...

How do you guys do polyrhythms? I'd like to use more in compositions, but I'd need to be able to play them, and Scriabin's 4th has a bunch of 5's and stuff...

Very well put, but I have information taught to me by my DMA teacher who learned it from his teacher Eugene Liszt.  Here goes, and this (Freebee) methodology also applies to anything that is difficult in terms of note synchronization:

1)  Transpose everything to C Major because if you cannot play a particular passage on strictly white notes, then there is no way you can do it with black keys involved.  Simply put, your brain does not have eyes, in terms of hand/eye coordination.

2)  Play both hand passages separately and then together in C Major.  Then, do so again, emphasizing hands separately and then together from beginning to end.

3)  Then, play one hand against another (switching back and forth) using C Major and the actual notes of the other hand.  Once you have mastered this, then you:

4)  Play both hands together using what your brain has taught you, and feel free to repeat this process many times over until it feels right!

[perfect_pitch]

Very well put, but I have information taught to me by my DMA teacher who learned it from his teacher Eugene Liszt.  Here goes, and this (Freebee) methodology also applies to anything that is difficult in terms of note synchronization:

1)  Transpose everything to C Major because if you cannot play a particular passage on strictly white notes, then there is no way you can do it with black keys involved.  Simply put, your brain does not have eyes, in terms of hand/eye coordination.

2)  Play both hand passages separately and then together in C Major.  Then, do so again, emphasizing hands separately and then together from beginning to end.

3)  Then, play one hand against another (switching back and forth) using C Major and the actual notes of the other hand.  Once you have mastered this, then you:

4)  Play both hands together using what your brain has taught you, and feel free to repeat this process many times over until it feels right!

Or there's my way...

 



Sorry, but having to transpose the passage, sounds like it's over-complicated, and trying to do one passage in the original key and the other hand in C Major, seems rather pointless.

Plus - not all polyrhythm passages can be easily transposed into the diatonic key of C Major without the use of black notes.

[quantum]

IMO, what we have here are three facets to the given problem.  Understating the problem from the different perspectives, as opposed to only utilizing a single approach would be the most beneficial strategy.

We have:
- Theoretical/mathematical understanding
- Kinesthetic understanding
- Musical understanding (pragmatic application in actual performance)

To some degree these approaches may conflict - but this is a good thing.  We may not always want to approach polyrhythms in the same manner as context is crucial.  A theoretical approach would favor both accuracy and precision, with the possibility of adding complexity to the humanistic component of performance.  The kinesthetic approach easily relates to our bodies and one that may favor unit precision at the expense of some accuracy.  However, a kinesthetic approach without a grasp on the mathematics can lead to awkwardness in solving perplexing trouble spots - after all math makes solving complex problems easier.  Then we have musical understanding, which may require that we may bend theoretical accuracy and kinesthetic intuition in favor of a result that goes beyond thinking about notes and rhythms, and strive to convey a message utilizing those elements, i.e.: real music is not what is printed in the score.

[ted]

I tend to think those instances of relatively prime numbers of uniformly played notes are not really rhythmic issues at all, but arise through notating easily played, convenient, rapid groups. The notational convention demands a bracket with a certain number of notes in it but its rhythmic effect is negligible. The difficult ones are where each stream of notes is not uniform and each has an important musical effect, sometimes completely asynchronous. For those ones, indianajo's way is about all you can do.
Simple examples of the latter occur in a couple of spots in the Rhapsody In Blue.

It is debatable, at least for me, can't speak for others, whether it is possible to actually perceive asynchronous rhythmic execution at the conscious level at all. It seems I do it in improvisation all the time, and sometimes hear three or four totally asynchronous rhythms going simultaneously when I listen to my recordings. However, I am forced to conclude that in most cases, all but perhaps one idea occurs through habituated, haptic movement, of which I am unaware at the time of playing.

[louispodesta]

In regards the post of "perfect_pitch,":  Sorry, but having to transpose the passage, sounds like it's over-complicated, and trying to do one passage in the original key and the other hand in C Major, seems rather pointless.

Plus - not all polyrhythm passages can be easily transposed into the diatonic key of C Major without the use of black notes. "

Okay, speaking for my own deficiencies, it has taken me forever to master the first three measures of the "Un poco meno mosso," section (two measures after number 15 of the first movement of the Rach 2nd).  Nonetheless, utilizing the same C Major back and forth combination, it is now there.

If you have better mastery when it comes to poly-rhythms, my best to you.  As an example, when I practice the Prokofiev 1st, (with its constant five against two), both methods work for me.

[perfect_pitch]

How the heck to you transpose a passage in c minor, into C Major, considering that the 3rd bar of [15] has a B flat and B natural, not to mention the C sharp and c natural in the following bar...

I'm rather curious...

[louispodesta]

How the heck to you transpose a passage in c minor, into C Major, considering that the 3rd bar of [15] has a B flat and B natural, not to mention the C sharp and c natural in the following bar...

I'm rather curious...

Thank you for your insightful reply. However, you caught me in the middle of making my supper.

Nevertheless, until I can reply tomorrow, when I state transposing to C Major, I mean a five finger scale, alternating in both hands.

More to come tomorrow.

[perfect_pitch]

So your replied during the middle of making your supper to reply that you can't reply fully...

Quite odd...   

[louispodesta]

So your replied during the middle of making your supper to reply that you can't reply fully...

Quite odd...   

I was just beginning to give a detailed clarified response when I read your post.  As if with my numerous physical maladies and a daily four hour practice schedule, I do not have anything better to do.

Many may and have disagreed, argued, or suggested an alternative to my logic on many posts, but I will not be disrespected!

Adios!

[perfect_pitch]

You seem to be a tad touchy... I wasn't trying to disrespect you - it just seemed odd to post a reply saying, that you're in the middle of making supper and can't reply fully...

When I was perfectly fine patiently waiting for a response from you.

Posting to claim that you're making supper just seemed a little odd, but there was no disrespect intended. I was genuinely curious to see what your method of working on polyrhythms was...

[louispodesta]

You seem to be a tad touchy... I wasn't trying to disrespect you - it just seemed odd to post a reply saying, that you're in the middle of making supper and can't reply fully...

When I was perfectly fine patiently waiting for a response from you.

Posting to claim that you're making supper just seemed a little odd, but there was no disrespect intended. I was genuinely curious to see what your method of working on polyrhythms was...

Once again (my wife refers to me as a gourmet cook), I have to cook two meals each evening.  Therefore, in that there was no offense taken, I will post again tomorrow to finish my thought.

Thank you for your candor.  It is much appreciated.