By which composer was Beethoven infuenced, and in what way?

[marijn1999]

Hi guys,

My teacher gave me an assignment last saturday: she wanted me to figure out the relationship between Beethoven and his contemporary or predecessing composers to see from which ones he learned or by which he was influenced. She wanted me to do this because I'm learning three sonatas from his three composing periods (Nos. 2, 18 and 31) and she thought it would be good to see in what way he developed music since he began his professional composing career (around 1792 I guess)

So I started thinking and doing some research and used the knowledge I already had. I figured he was infuenced mostly by Haydn and Mozart, but by both in different ways. I think from Haydn he mostly learned that by "recomposing" a very small motive or theme (retrograde, using parts of it, augementation, diminution) it's possible to write a complete work out of no more than probably two themes. Also, I think he learned how to connect all movements from a multi-movement work by use of key. Also, I recognize a great resemblance in the choice of key in the slow movements. Where Mozart usually chooses a key like E-flat major F major or B-flat major (pretty much always a key with flats), Haydn and Beethoven both think about how to interconnect the movements, usually by writing the slow movement in the parallel or relative major/minor or by going down or up a third (1st movent: C major, 2nd movement: E major or A-flat major).

In which way he was influenced by Mozart is a little bit unclear to me, any help there? Anyway, these are all general aspects of composition. But what I also would like to know is if anyone around here knows some bit more about very specific compositions. For example, I know he used Mozart violin sonatas KV 296, 379 and 380 as models for his three piano quartets WoO 36. Does anyone know more about examples like that?

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the much and chaotic information.

BW,
marijn

[brogers70]

He spent a lot of time studying the Well Tempered Clavier and taking counterpoint lessons, and as time went by starting including fugal movements in his sonatas and quartets, so I'd add Bach as an important influence.

[piulento]

Seems like you pretty much get it.
- Beethoven was influenced a lot by Haydn (I believe he even wrote his 2nd sonata, which you play, while studying under him) - in terms of using the sonata form, theme developement, musical textures, modulations and harmonic progressions. If you listen to some of his early sonatas you'll see a distinct Haydn presence. I think Haydn gave him the basic tools to writing piano sonatas, which he later developed to his own unique style.
- Mozart was a huge force of nature when Beethoven was a teenager, and he drew plenty of inspiration from his music. Again - Mozart was an example of a composer with great talent for theme developement, classical textures, lyrical sensitivity, and most importantly - atmosphere. You can especially tell the influence from Mozart in his piano concertos. While Haydn gave him the basic tools for composing (as a teacher), I think Mozart was sort of an Idol who gave Beethoven the more personal aspects of his music - flare, warmness...
- Beethoven studied Bach's style almost like a religion. He was a big fan of counterpoint (something you can see both in his early and late periods - polyphonic textures, fugues, etc) and of Bach's ideas of harmonic functions (though, TBH, who isn't?! Everybody used it as the time...) so it's natural to see plenty of Bach-like elements in his music - sometimes out in the open, and sometimes more hidden.
These are the main ones, I think.

[marijn1999]

Seems like you pretty much get it.
- Beethoven was influenced a lot by Haydn (I believe he even wrote his 2nd sonata, which you play, while studying under him) - in terms of using the sonata form, theme developement, musical textures, modulations and harmonic progressions. If you listen to some of his early sonatas you'll see a distinct Haydn presence. I think Haydn gave him the basic tools to writing piano sonatas, which he later developed to his own unique style.
- Mozart was a huge force of nature when Beethoven was a teenager, and he drew plenty of inspiration from his music. Again - Mozart was an example of a composer with great talent for theme developement, classical textures, lyrical sensitivity, and most importantly - atmosphere. You can especially tell the influence from Mozart in his piano concertos. While Haydn gave him the basic tools for composing (as a teacher), I think Mozart was sort of an Idol who gave Beethoven the more personal aspects of his music - flare, warmness...
- Beethoven studied Bach's style almost like a religion. He was a big fan of counterpoint (something you can see both in his early and late periods - polyphonic textures, fugues, etc) and of Bach's ideas of harmonic functions (though, TBH, who isn't?! Everybody used it as the time...) so it's natural to see plenty of Bach-like elements in his music - sometimes out in the open, and sometimes more hidden.
These are the main ones, I think.

Thanks, I forgot Bach. I also think he rose to the same height of composition in counterpoint but just put it in the musical forms of his time.

And, do you have any idea about specific pieces which he used as a model?

Thanks again.

[daniloperusina]

Muzio Clementi had a big influence on LvB's style of writing for piano, especially in their shared love for technical passage-work. For eample, LvB's op2:3 is full of Clementi-style passages. Check out some of the former's sonatas, and you'll see.

Mozart seems to have been a source LvB went to sometimes to make particular studies. A very clear such one is LvB's quintet for piano and wind instruments in e-flat. Almost bar-by-bar he uses Mozart's quintet for piano and wind instruments in e-flat as his model. Take out the scores of both works and play through them and it'll be very evident.

[musikalischer_wirbelwind_280]

I also remember reading some time ago that he intensively studied Palestrina's oeuvre, before he set to work on the majestic 'Missa Solemnis'.

[piulento]

And, do you have any idea about specific pieces which he used as a model?

Thanks again.

I can't remember any specific pieces he used for models, but here are some pieces I can't listen to without immediately thinking about how Beethoven must've drawn inspiration from them:

(c'mon, you can practically hear his 5th sonata...)

(sonata no. 11 anyone...?)

I also remember reading some time ago that he intensively studied Palestrina's oeuvre, before he set to work on the majestic 'Missa Solemnis'.

Really? Had no idea he was into Palestrina... Interesting to hear.

[visitor]

odd that so many replies in, no mention of Georgy at all yetl. Almost above all others, it was Handel that Beethoven held in high regards (not to the exclusion of others, but it's important to note) (well at first it seems Mozart was first, but it seems as he moved later into life and his style matured he had a deeper appreciation for Handel first, maybe Mozart in 2nd, etc..)

"On another occasion he is said to have remarked, "Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived", and spoke of the oratorio as having "sublimity of language". The music of Messiah so permeated Beethoven's being that on his deathbed he is reputed to have quoted from The Messiah"

"He is the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head and kneel before his tomb."
-- Ludwig van Beethoven, quoted in Percy M Young, Handel (1947).


as for Beethoven and J, this should be good for further reading

https://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3bach_beethoven.html

 

[goldentone]

The music of Messiah so permeated Beethoven's being that on his deathbed he is reputed to have quoted from The Messiah"

I seem to remember that in the latter days of Beethoven's life he was studying Handel's
scores.  It interested me to learn that.