Please help with these flying octaves

[pencilart3]

I don't get this. I don't get it! How does one play this portion as fast as kissin or the other pros? I attached a little file of me fumbling clumsily through this part. I'm at the point that this part and 2 other parts are the only thing I just can't get. Everything else is manageable but these dang octaves. Help! How does one practice these? Do you do any different fingerings? I attached a little extra after the octaves to show the general tempo I am setting for this piece. And that the octaves are definitely not at that tempo. Help!! Here is the sheet music if you are interested:

[pianorahrah]

You are pretty good already, I think I would need to see a video to tell you.
However, you are a bit rushy, and that's because you want to play fast. But sometimes, if you think slower you will actually go faster. Hear each note better and don't try to go to the next note as fast as possible.
Also, loosen up your wrist and it will help. Each time you play a chord or octave, give your wrist a tiny tiny flip smoothly.

[michael_c]

Close your eyes, or if you have difficulty keeping them closed, put on a blindfold. Now play the passage, hands together, really slowly. Don't push the tempo. If you overshoot or don't move far enough, just repeat the same jump slowly until you have a muscular memory of how far it is.

Be aware of the feeling in your back and shoulder muscles. To jump around the keyboard fast your shoulders need to be as free as possible. It's easy to obsess about what the fingers or the wrist is doing: instead, concentrate on the bigger muscles that are moving your arm and hand into position.

[jimroof]

You might be tensing up from 'aiming' at the right notes. 

Try totally giving up on hitting the right notes, or even hitting OCTAVES.  Flail your arms about the keyboard with the SOLE intent being to achieve the rhythm and tempo you desire.  Hit clusters that are roughly an octave apart.  Notes are not important for this.

Get the large muscle feel established FIRST, then slowly be more concerned with accuracy.

I did the coda to the Gm Ballade this way.  I ended up being able to play it perfectly at a blistering tempo but the path to getting it there was just as a described.  I was hitting all kinds of wrong notes and clusters while only being concerned with the right upper body, elbow and wrist motions.  The fingers came later when I could achieve my desired tempo with the large muscles.

See if that helps. 

That, and ALSO (very important) you must be able to visualize in your mind's eye actually PLAYING it the way you want it to happen in reality.  If it is beyond your imagination - it is beyond your ability.

[ansgarpiano]

A very difficult passage, but manageable; here is how I did it:

First of all get the right fingering: 4 on the black 5 - 4 - 5 - 4 - 5- 4 on the white. Notice that using 4th finger on the outer positions keeps then hand flexible and naturally prepares the next position. If using only 5 on the whites it locks your hand and accumulates tension enroute to next position. Or at least thats how it was for me.

Second of all make sure that you play ABSOLUTE STACCATISSIMO letting go of each octave in a glimpse of an eye immidieatly. Liszt wrote leggiermente meaning “lightly and soft, but quick.” Transfer this directly to your technique executing these octaves and, I think, you will feels progress.

Also make sure that you help out with the left hand. I obtained stability playing the left hand mezzoforte and as legato as possible (not completly possible because of repetition but with this sound in mind you get a long way). As I see it the left hand in the passage is the more lyrical part. I imagine deep wind instruments played very softly yet clearly leading the right hand musically.

More work could be exercising playing the passage with different parts being "the boss". E. G. left hand then right thump then right 4/5 finger. After that I thought that best musical and technical result was controlling things with right hand thump to get safe ground to walk on and minimize the chance of missing when changing positions.

Last thing that comes to my mind on this is to keep YOUR WHOLE BODY RELAXED 100 %. Start with sitting comfortably resting from your back. Then make sure that this resting feeling continues to the arms wrists and fingers so that you only using the muscle power absolut necessairy. This will bring that the only tension will be your octave grip that should remain the same towards the passage.

Lastly remember that this etude is definitely one of the most difficult of the 12 and one of the most challenging pieces of the romantic piano repetoir. I do not know your history but remember to be sweet to yourself if you havent practiced 10 hours a day through 20 years like these top gun pianists

Please let me know if this was helpfull

- Ansgarpiano

[ansgarpiano]

Forgot one thing: Noticed how let's say a basketball bounces many times on an asphalt road? It uses the energi from each bounce to make the next. This can be done with your octaves as well. With relaxed body except for the prepared octave grip you well see that a bounce back movement occurs. Use this well to guide you to the next octave.

These are all tools to play the passage as if we were building a small space rocket. We need many advanced tools to build it, but when used proberly our rocket will fly in the end

[pencilart3]

Thank you everybody. That was all very helpful. I don't know how I am ever going to manage this one

[pjjslp]

Thank you everybody. That was all very helpful. I don't know how I am ever going to manage this one

Don't get down on yourself. It's sounding wonderful so far and you've got some great advice here. Put it away for the night and start fresh tomorrow.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Heads up you don't gotta play it as fast as kissin

[pencilart3]

Don't get down on yourself. It's sounding wonderful so far and you've got some great advice here. Put it away for the night and start fresh tomorrow.

Haha thanks I will do that.

@rach forever you think I didn't know that...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Haha thanks I will do that.

@rach forever you think I didn't know that...

"How does one play this portion as fast as kissin or the other pros?"

Dude you were the one who asked the question

[lostinidlewonder]

With the Rh octaves it helps of course to feel the thumb replacing where the 5th(or 4th if you are that way inclined lol) was when you move up and vice versa when you go down and you can do it blindly no probs.

[pencilart3]

Thanks lost

Rach I asked how he did it, I didn't say I planned to play it that fast.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Thanks lost

Rach I asked how he did it, I didn't say I planned to play it that fast.

Bullshit

Dude stop trying to cover it you and I both know that you thought this had to be played as fast as them.  Otherwise you wouldn't have gone out of your way to ask how to play it that fast.  You're not fooling anyone.  

[pencilart3]

What?! You thought that I thought that this piece had to be played as fast as kissin?!?! And that I'm trying to cover it up?! Where on earth did you get that silly idea?! XD

Dude how bad do you think I AM? I mean 99% of this site hates me for what I believe about Jesus and morals but most people don't think I'm THAT stupid when it comes to sheer piano! Look at my youtube channel, I don't play NUTIN as fast as pros! Haha!! Though if you know how to play like Kissin then go ahead and tell me hahaha

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Dude how bad do you think I AM? I mean 99% of this site hates me for what I believe about Jesus and morals

personally as long as it's not discriminating against anyone I don't have a problem with it.

[outin]

I mean 99% of this site hates me for what I believe about Jesus and morals 

Actually I doubt anyone hates you. If we did we wouldn't give you such a hard time 
And no, you are not at all stupid for your age when it comes to piano

[adodd81802]

I don't think anybody has a true hate on your personal opinion on religion. Especially as you do not seem to impose it on others on this site.

I 100% disagree and consider you a fool with your views on religion, however this is a Piano forum, not a religion forum (despite the 'anything but piano' section xD)

I am here to improve my own piano ability whilst trying to help others along the way, as well as admiring the particularly skilled players such as yourself. For that, I consider you very smart.

If anything I'm quite baffled at Rach's comments, I don't think you using examples suggests you want to play identically fast as them but do give good ideas to listeners of the standard you're hoping to be on route to achieving.

A good pianist does not try to mimic just one other pianist, but takes all their favourite parts of different performances and makes it into one, their own.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Forgot one thing: Noticed how let's say a basketball bounces many times on an asphalt road? It uses the energi from each bounce to make the next. This can be done with your octaves as well. With relaxed body except for the prepared octave grip you well see that a bounce back movement occurs. Use this well to guide you to the next octave.

This is good, pertinent advice. With a light, relaxed touch and use the return of the keys to assist in "bouncing" the hand to the next octave. Don't go "into" the keys (you will expend much more energy getting the hand "out" that way, play with a surface touch only.

Something else should be commented on. The black note octaves are much easier to get between rapidly and cleanly than the white note ones (as an analogy, try playing La Campanella in A min - it is so much harder). I have big hands, so this solution may not be applicable for you, but on the black notes I found the fingering 15/ 13 (with the hand at an angle such that it looks like you are using 1, 3 AND 4 on the black note) /15 /15 /15 /15 to be a useful trick. It also seemed to facilitate the substitution aspect that LIIW referred to, and I found that the enforced change of hand position helped with upwards propulsion. By the time you get to the white note octaves on the second line, you can legitimately and effectively view the cresc as an allargando, which makes things so much easier. A tempo at the start of the third line, of course.

[pencilart3]

Thank you adodd, you are awesome I will send you that PM about the bach.

Thanks for the help ronde I definitely trust what you have to say. And yes the black key leaps are much easier then the white key ones. Thanks I will look at what you said!