What is your experiance with a "DEAD BASS" on your piano?

[ivoryplayer4him]

Every church piano I come across has a "Dead bass".  I'm only calling it that because its what my tuner calls it so if you are perfect and want to start rambling about the correct terminology...save it .  Anyway I would really love to know what other people's experiances are with this problem and possible things that I might be a ble to do as a pianist with a dead bass.

[Axtremus]

What do you mean by "dead bass" ? I've heard "tubby" and "growling" used to describe bass, I've heard "dead" used on the highest few notes, but never "dead bass." Please elaborate. Thanks.

[ivoryplayer4him]

What do you mean by "dead bass" ? I've heard "tubby" and "growling" used to describe bass, I've heard "dead" used on the highest few notes, but never "dead bass." Please elaborate. Thanks.

Honestly, I dont know how you would explain it.  All i know is that you really cant tell the differnece in some of the chords and stuff.  Its just DEAD like no good.  I dont know, every tuner will tell me, "you need to get your entire bass replaced"  and that cost almost 1000 dollars!  So i really dont know.

[richard w]

Likely as not, the problem relates to the bass strings being old and useless. I'm not sure exactly what causes it, but probably a combination of corrosion, loss of elasticity over time and dirt build up on the strings. Replacing the strings will no doubt restore some of the sound quality, but you'd almost certainly be better off putting the money towards a new piano. Replace the bass strings, and it will probably become more apparent that you need to change the treble strings as well. And then the sound board will probably need some attention too. After that, you'll probably need new hammers and dampers, and a general overhaul of the action. If each time it costs you USD 1,000.00 then it quickly becomes apparent what your best option is - have a piano-smashing contest and put the proceeds towards a U3.

That said, if the piano is of value, say a Steinway Grand, there might well be some value in spending money on a restoration. But whilst the market might like such instruments, I certainly don't. I think I'd much rather have a new Yamaha than an old Steinway.

[wynnbear]

Replacing the strings will no doubt restore some of the sound quality, but you'd almost certainly be better off putting the money towards a new piano. Replace the bass strings, and it will probably become more apparent that you need to change the treble strings as well. And then the sound board will probably need some attention too. After that, you'll probably need new hammers and dampers, and a general overhaul of the action. If each time it costs you USD 1,000.00 then it quickly becomes apparent what your best option is - have a piano-smashing contest and put the proceeds towards a U3.

Wow, Richard!  That's sort of like saying, "Don't replace that fan belt on your car.  You could put that money toward a new one."

Maintenance is part of owning any complex piece of equipment.  Automobile, piano, pipe organ, etc.  Each part of the piano has an average useful life.  Hammers are usually the parts that need the most regular attention outside of standard tunings. 

But strings have a useful life as well.  And they can be replaced to bring the piano back to its proper level of performance.  Churches offer some of the most harmful atmospheres for a piano.  Usually temperature and humidity control is not used regularly, but only on service days.  So wild fluctuations are common.  This will cause a need for more maintenance than a similar piano kept in a climate-controlled home.

As long as the fundemental structure is sound (rim, soundboard, bridges, action, pinblock, etc.) it's as silly to toss a piano with dead bass strings as it is to toss a Mercedes that needs new brakes.

[Floristan]

I'd second WynnBear's evaluation and recommendation.  If the piano is otherwise OK, replacing the bass strings could be the way to go.

Bass string usually become dead from corrosion and just losing internal tension over time.  There are tricks a technician can do to partially revive dead bass strings, but on a decent grand, replacing the strings is the way to go.

If you are not sure you trust your technician's opinion, find another through the Piano Technician's Guild and have him/her evaluate the instrument independently and see if they come to the same conclusion.  Maybe the best technician is one who has actual rebuilding experience (e.g., replaces pinblocks, recaps bridges, and restrings on a regular basis).  That type of technician might be better able to evaluate the total instrument.

[ahmedito]

I'd definately take the dead bass out of the piano.... maybe fry it in garlic and olive oil and serve it with lemon? A nice white wine would go pretty well with it as well....


oh, and check how it got into your piano in the first place.

[richard w]

Wow, Richard! That's sort of like saying, "Don't replace that fan belt on your car. You could put that money toward a new one."

Maintenance is part of owning any complex piece of equipment. Automobile, piano, pipe organ, etc. Each part of the piano has an average useful life. Hammers are usually the parts that need the most regular attention outside of standard tunings.

But strings have a useful life as well. And they can be replaced to bring the piano back to its proper level of performance. Churches offer some of the most harmful atmospheres for a piano. Usually temperature and humidity control is not used regularly, but only on service days. So wild fluctuations are common. This will cause a need for more maintenance than a similar piano kept in a climate-controlled home.

As long as the fundemental structure is sound (rim, soundboard, bridges, action, pinblock, etc.) it's as silly to toss a piano with dead bass strings as it is to toss a Mercedes that needs new brakes.

Point taken. But please allow me to suggest that your fan belt analogy is more similar to saying 'don't replace that single broken hammer shaft........(etc)'. Restringing is more akin to completely rebuilding the engine, and unless the car has antique value not many would bother to do this. It might make the car run for another 100,000 miles, but by that stage so many other things would need replacing that you might as well have gone for a new car in the first place. Furthermore, if you do rebuild the engine, then your engine may well run like new but overall the car would not feel like a new one. Of course, there are exceptions, but in my experience of typical church pianos, restringing wouldn't, to me at least, look like a worthwhile pursuit.

If the bass strings are 'dead' to the extent that you scarcely know what notes you are playing, as was suggested, then the piano is likely to be rather old, and probably has not been kept in a good environment. The bass strings wouldn't be likely to deteriorate far more rapidly than any other part of the instrument, so thus I reached my opinion. Bear in mind that a piano does not get better with age - even a very expensive instrument, not in my experience at least.

However, restringing the bass on a worthy instrument will make quite a difference to the sound. I had to fit new strings to an old piano of mine, on account of breakages. The new strings sounded much brighter than the adjacent 25-year-old strings. That said, it would probably not have been worthwhile having a complete restringing job done on account that the cost would have exceeded the worth of the piano.

If you have a fine high-quality piano which is around 25 years old or so, and you wish to keep it in tip top playing condition then you will discover that a restringing will do much to restore the tone quality of the instrument. An enthusiast may even consider replacing the strings more frequently. But on a 75+ year old church piano, quite possibly donated from someone's shed, and of average quality when brand new, is it worth it?

[wynnbear]

Richard,

This may be a situation where either of us is right.  It depends on factors we aren't able to analyze, like the current condition of the rest of the instrument.

In my experience, bass strings start to go "tubby" and dead at about 30 years, and poor climate control (such as in a typical church) can accelerate this.  Thirty years is not a big chunk of the life expectancy of a good quality grand.

Is it worth changing out dead bass strings on a thirty year old grand of reasonable quality and condition?  Yes.

Is it worth changing out dead bass strings on a sixty year old grand in general worn-out condition?  Probably not.

Hopefully a competent tech will tell a client when they would be throwing good money after bad to continue to service a particular instrument.  If the client (church) has any doubts, it might be worth it to call in a second-party tech to evaluate the wisdom of making a substantial investment in repairs.

[richard w]

I think we agree after all. 

Going back to the original question (it's a bit easy go get side tracked):

Honestly, I dont know how you would explain it. All i know is that you really cant tell the differnece in some of the chords and stuff. Its just DEAD like no good. I dont know, every tuner will tell me, "you need to get your entire bass replaced" and that cost almost 1000 dollars! So i really dont know.

As a pianist, probably all you can do is persuade those in charge of the purse strings to spend a little money. The only other option is DIY piano maintenance, and I am guessing from the tone of your post that this may not be the route you want to take. If you do get some money to spend on maintenance, I think you ought to seriously consider what the same money could get in terms of replacement instrument: either a used acoustic or a digital.

Best of luck fixing your problem.



Richard.

[pianodoc]

Ok, let me throw on my tech hat for a moment....

Bass strings are regular strings that have been wound tightly with copper to add mass to make the appropriate lower pitches.  The windings need to stay tight, to vibrate with the inner core wire.  Bass guitar players change out their strings regularly as they get dead sounding due to the finger oils getting between the windings.  Not all old piano strings get dead, but when the whole section has gone, there has usually been some contamination - like a furniture spray, or WD-40, or spill.  However, dead strings are really an indication that the vibration of the string is being dampened, or not transmitted through the board to the air.  So you could also be having a bridge that has become unglued from the soundboard.... yech.  A tech could try and add a twist to one string, or drop the pitch and bang on the string and then retune.  If there is a change, then it's safe to assume that you've got a string problem - however the "best" (longest lasting) fix is to put new strings into the piano.  But it's impossible to know without seeing the instrument.

[timothy42b]

I'd definately take the dead bass out of the piano.... maybe fry it in garlic and olive oil and serve it with lemon? A nice white wine would go pretty well with it as well....


oh, and check how it got into your piano in the first place.

First play the Trout. 

[pianonut]

dear all,  haha about the trout!  that's funny.  pianodoc gave some good tips for maintainence (not spraying furniture polish near strings - shut the lid).  you'd be surprised how many good pianos are ruined by not being maintained.  some are banged on and the action is gone/some the strings are unstrung.  to me the worst is when you have keys that stick along with the dead bass.  at least you can pretend, when you can play with something, but constantly dealing with a dead bass reminds me of people who are in love with antique pianos.  just give it up.  just polish it.  get another one.