Help with Ondine descending thirds fingering

[minhogang]

First set of thirds, I use 1-4 3-5 1-4 2-3, but I have quite short fingers so I end up rolling the thirds. What are your fingerings on this?

[avanchnzel]

Not sure whose Ondine you're referring to but I'm presuming Ravel. I have really short fingers too (a larger palm helps me reach a ninth on the corners). I use 1-3 2-4 1-3 2-4 for the general pattern. Finger independence exercises help a lot.

[piulento]

I know it seems impossible. but you can try these few simple steps:
1 - playing it slowly
2- playing it slower
3 - playing it even slower and realizing that no matter how slow you play it's just too difficult
4 - getting injured from practicing too much and not getting anywhere
5- deciding to play something else
6 - crying yourself to sleep
That's at least how it would be for me haha

Kidding aside, this part is an absolute beast (not that I every tried playing it) so any fingering that makes you tense will probably hurt like hell when you play it quickly, so make sure you're completely comfortable with whatever you pick.
I personlly think the fingering you suggested would be the most comfortable, though it might make the transition to the augmented 4th afterwards a bit clumsy (but I'm pretty sure there isn't a better option).
When I played Chopin's op. 28 no. 24's cursed thirds passage near the end I used to devote 70% of the work to pure finger dexterity and independence, rather than on the actual music. I'd suggest you to do the same.
Good luck! 

[minhogang]

I just injured my right wrist. Oh well, going to step 5

[jinfiesto]

Just buy the Nancy Bricard edition. Multiple (excellent) fingerings for almost every passage. Alfred prints it, so it's super cheap. Not like buying a Henle or some such thing.

I would do that before you give up. Maybe just take a few days off while you waait for the above to arrive.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I do

13
24
13
24
13
24
13
25
13
25
13
24
13
24
13
etc...


Dude that sh*t is freaking tough and it's gonna take a long time to get it up to speed

Practice it slowly in different rhythms it'll help

[malabdal]

This passage seems to be problematic to every piano student I have talked to about this piece. For me the double notes were never the problem ... the filigree passages on the fourth beat were the problem.
No matter how fast the double notes are (they have to be quite fast), the filigree on the fourth beat is twice as fast (very fast). And it becomes in bad taste to do rubato on every 4th beat of every double notes run. So in other words, you have no choice but to learn it properly (without slowing down every time). It was an accuracy problem for me.

Also don't underestimate the difficulty of playing the grace notes properly (Left hand).... They have to be very short (though very effective), and you have to leap very fast (absolutely no excess motion) to the chord. Never change pedals on the chord (tempting!), always on the grace note. 

Again I would recommend (as mentioned above) to buy the Nancy Bricard edition (it has good fingering). In fact if you search the forum, you will find that in one of the "Ondine fingering" searches someone posted a pdf of the score I mentioned. It is also useful after you are at a point not worrying about technique to buy a clean Henle score with no fingering and excessive notes so you can really only see in front of you the indications of Ravel.

Putting all what I said aside, if it is injuring you then put it aside for a bit and then come back to it. You will be surprised that neither the double notes passage, nor the polyrhythmic climax, nor the "Rapide et Brilliant" arpeggios are the most difficult passages of Ondine ... It is the first two pages that are the killer to ultimately play well (also voicing measures 53-54 perfectly is painful).

It is a very rewarding piece to play. It is so pianistic that you will eventually feel that you are truly playing the piano more than ever. But you should be prepared to put hundreds of hours and several months to learning it. This piece should also enrich your palette of tonal colours so much and should improve the sensibility of your touch tremendously. There is always hundreds of shadings hidden in each measure. Your ultimate task is to balance those shadings so you paint a consistent and moving Ondine aphorism. But now worry about your double notes.

[minhogang]

The 1324 helped out a lot. It's actually very easy for me now 

Another question: when do you let go of the soft pedal at the beginning of the piece and the left hand glissando part?

I personally let go at measure 11, and 26.

[malabdal]

The question of when you want to let go of the soft pedal is very dependent on how you have used the soft pedal so far... Why have you used the soft pedal so far? What did the texture added by the soft pedal mean to you? When do you want to shift that meaning to something new, to a new color, a new idea?

In other words, I am trying to tell you that the answer depends on what you have painted so far. It is very interesting because I also slightly release the soft pedal at measure 11 (for the first time). You could do that, but you have to have conviction why you are doing that.

For me, the melodic line in the left hand (Ondine's call) up until measure 10 is coming from under the water. Ondine here is still singing from her underwater world and is on her way ascending up. The soft pedal, for me, is used here to serve this texture of sound, this poetic melody that is heard but from a distance, just the echo of it ("I thought I heard A faint harmony that enchants my sleep."). In measure 11, however, I believe Ondine is for the first time reaching the surface of the shimmering and pulsating water. Notice, here, for the first time, the left hand is over the right hand (a gesture characteristic of this piece). The motion of sound has to be carried in accordance to this, in my opinion. The C# in measure 11 comes out as if she pulls her head for the first time above the water. The environment for her has immediately changed, and so a corresponding change of color and touch should be used here to describe this new environment, this new air she is breathing. Her voice (the left hand melody) should not sound any more the same ... It should project into the air more as if her singing is more free (Remember she is now no more in the water palace of her father, she is free of him. Her Father-King is someone she will clash with in the double notes measures (58-62) and he will be whipping the croaking water with a branch of a green alder tree (LH of the double notes passage)) 

Using a similar approach to the music, you can probably figure for yourself what you need to do in the glissando passage. I don't want to spoil your creativity by talking too much (I think I already talked to much ... and too explicitly).   

[minhogang]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Anyone mind posting a picture of the uneven passage section with fingerings? (with the tempo marking Un peu plus lent) I already can do it but wondering if there's alternatives here.

[malabdal]

Here (attached) is what I have.

[minhogang]

Thanks! Greatly appreciated.