Is it important to get Urtext ?

[sammmue]

Hi, Im a music student from Singapore.

Im curious about whether is there really a need to invest in urtext books for students because I can find other edition that is way cheaper.

Can I get your advice on whether I should get urtext books? I do know that its important to urtext for Baroque period composers but Classical onwards do you all think its necessary ?


Thank you

[quantum]

If cost is a large concern, look at the public domain online editions first.  Pianostreet has good editions as well if you want to sign up for gold membership. 

If you are studying with a teacher then urtext is a good choice, as your teacher can guide you and your scores will not be unnecessarily cluttered.  If you are doing self-study with music that is largely unfamiliar, then a modern edited edition might be an option. 

Cost isn't always what is seems, so don't just grab the cheapest thing on the shelf.  Some public domain editions, containing rather dated editing practices, are still being printed and sold for what seems to be a "good deal," when in fact you can download these very same editions for free as they are public domain.  No so much a good deal after all if you were trying to save money.  The point being: know what you are buying. 

It is more a matter obtaining a decent edition and not getting something that is of questionable quality or containing dated editing practices. 

[iansinclair]

see also my reply to the same thread under "repertoire"

[stevensk]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers

 

[chechig]

I usually buy Urtext editions. I'm studying a nocturne by Chopin, one of the posthumos, with the red  Vienner urtext, and it's completelly different to the Cortot edition for instance. Listening to great pianist, their versions are more like Cortot's edition than to the VIenner. So I'm a bit disappointed right now, because I have plenty of books by that edition. My teacher says that even the urtext have big mistakes. So, from now on, I will try first IMSLP to see what they have.

[chopinlover01]

As others have said, always try IMSLP for urtexts first. Urtext tend to be the most accurate, but if you're a beginning pianist, they won't have helpful markings like implied dynamic markings, accents, fingerings, etc.

[outin]

Listening to great pianist, their versions are more like Cortot's edition than to the VIenner.

Of course, because before it didn't use to matter much what was the most original edition but how did your teachers or people you looked up to interpreted the pieces. Only recently did people get so obsessed about playing things "right". Which in the case of Chopin is questionable anyway for several reasons.

With an urtext you can read the text and then just build on it your own way with less people having put their mark on it. If you want to sound like someone else there's no benefit in using them.

The reason why I prefer urtext is because the less unnecessary stuff there is on the score, the easier it's for me to read and learn. Most fingerings by males editors are unsuitable for me anyway and when I learn Baroque music for example I don't like to be told how to employ dynamics or how to articulate.

[quantum]

Listening to great pianist, their versions are more like Cortot's edition than to the VIenner.

There is a distinction between listening and a score, they are two completely different things.  A score does not tell you how to listen or how to play a piece, rather a score describes the music in a methodical and systematic manner so you can make an interpretation of the music.  

The pianist will have their own input towards the music, they may choose to incorporate some "editorial" content, or not.  But this action is not exclusively related to the score: is is part of interpretation - determinations the performer may make regarding acoustics, instrument, space, and/or any specific message that is wished to be conveyed at that time.  In essence, it is what the performer does with the score that transforms a piece from a set of instructions into music.  

[chechig]

Of course, because before it didn't use to matter much what was the most original edition but how did your teachers or people you looked up to interpreted the pieces. Only recently did people get so obsessed about playing things "right". Which in the case of Chopin is questionable anyway for several reasons.

Thank you for your reply. I was not particularly worried about this matter. But my teacher is very concerned about doing the right thing, so he made me aware of the differencies between scores.
I have enough with playing the right notes and with the less possible mistakes...

[didi100]

I was actually told by my instructor that Urtext is not a good edition to use because of the editing changes to the original transcription. Also it is much more expensive than some of the other editions. I was told the Cortot is very good for Chopin and even Peters is even better.

[quantum]

I was actually told by my instructor that Urtext is not a good edition to use because of the editing changes to the original transcription.

Perhaps this was a misunderstanding. 

An urtext publication strives to be as close as possible to the source document, and in such manner contains minimal editing and avoids invasive editorial opinions within text proper.  Urtext publications may also contain detailed footnotes/endnotes with regards to sources and any irregularities that turn up if sources disagree with each other. 

Heavily edited editions (ones that are not urtext) are likely what your instructor was referring to.

[louispodesta]

Hi, Im a music student from Singapore.

Im curious about whether is there really a need to invest in urtext books for students because I can find other edition that is way cheaper.

Can I get your advice on whether I should get urtext books? I do know that its important to urtext for Baroque period composers but Classical onwards do you all think its necessary ?


Thank you

In that the OP (I have done the same) has posted this query on the Performance Forum, I will post an edited version of my very recent reply.

1)  The leading applied musicologist on original performanc is Dr. Clive Brown of the University of Leeds.  He stated in an interview (March of 2015) with radio station WQXR of New York city the following:  "All Classical Music is Being Played Wrong."

2)  In this interview, he said that all musicians of the time commonly improvised and rarely played anything the same way twice (Mozart and Beethoven being the most well known examples).

3)  The term Urtext was originally coined and espoused by Heinrich Schenker in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  His work was mostly concerned with the late Beethoven Sonatas, with which many performers were taking great liberties.

4)  Not only did they improvise (like Beethoven), they were also publishing printed versions of their performances, which in a word was:  wrong.

5)  However, for Schenker to haul out Beethoven's manuscripts and state that this is the way the composer (the great improviser) played them is total falsehood.  The man was totally deaf and had not performed in years, and even if he could this "great improviser" would not have played it strictly according to the score.

7)  During his lifetime, Schenker had to teach out of his home because no one in any music conservatory would give him a job.  Why?  Because no one, and I mean no one played anything literally, according to the score.

Then, as accurately stated in his Memoir, Earl Wild reveals that directly after World War II Adele Marcus, Rossina Lhevinne, Claudio Arrau, Rubinstein, et al, resurrected this note perfect, attention to the score Urtext methodology.  Not only did this not exist as a common way of performance in the early 20th century, even Jorge Bolet referred to this philosophy of performance as the "Urtext Mob."

[debussychopin]

Even at the college level, for even Bach and Beethoven as well,  it is more commendable for a student to work off of a schirmer edition faithfully and correctly than to carry around a $50 Henley urtext without any regard to it other than just memorizing the notes per se.

[iansinclair]

and please see my second comment under the performance thread...