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Topic: Is it important to get Urtext ?  (Read 1969 times)

Offline sammmue

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Is it important to get Urtext ?
on: October 01, 2016, 01:10:27 PM
Hi, Im a music student from Singapore.

Im curious about whether is there really a need to invest in urtext books for students because I can find other edition that is way cheaper.

Can I get your advice on whether I should get urtext books? I do know that its important to urtext for Baroque period composers but Classical onwards do you all think its necessary ?


Thank you Smiley

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #1 on: October 01, 2016, 01:43:16 PM
Ask six people and you will get ten different answers.  In my opinion, no -- particularly for students.  In fact, in many cases other editions may be superior for students.  In my humble opinion... one does want to be a bit picky, as sometimes other editions will have tempo or dynamic or pedaling markings which are the editor's opinions and may or may not be all that helpful.  They may also have fingering suggestions, likewise.

Usually, however (there are exceptions!) the notes are the same -- and that is what really counts.
Ian

Offline avanchnzel

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #2 on: October 01, 2016, 09:28:42 PM
It depends on how serious you are. Take a Dover to university and it'll be looked down upon. If you're playing for your own sake then nobody's there to pick on the various little extras that the editors put in. Urtext editions are heavily researched and corroborated with multiple manuscripts to check out inconsistencies, so editors don't put in what they 'believe' should be there.

If you're playing Beethoven then an urtext edition is a must-have. His handwriting was terrible and he was also extremely inconsistent.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #3 on: October 01, 2016, 11:00:47 PM
Hi, Im a music student from Singapore.

Im curious about whether is there really a need to invest in urtext books for students because I can find other edition that is way cheaper.

Can I get your advice on whether I should get urtext books? I do know that its important to urtext for Baroque period composers but Classical onwards do you all think its necessary ?


Thank you Smiley
Thank you for your interrogatory, which is somewhat puzzling because it shows a very high level of intellect.  And, at the same time, it also renders an inability to research this subject on your own, without the resources of Pianostreet.

Giving you (and English phrase) the very big benefit of the doubt, I list the link to my 3 year old historical  piano news video, which has just been viewed by over 6,800 individuals, worldwide.



Please contact me by PM, if you desire further information.

Thank you.

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #4 on: October 01, 2016, 11:29:18 PM
I'd like to add a bit to some of the above.  That is relating to the question of authenticity, or adherence to "what the composer really meant" -- sort of hinted at in avanchnzel's answer.

It is quite true that most urtext editions have been heavily researched and corroborated by looking at as many manuscripts as the publishers can find.  This does not mean, however, that they represent what the composer really wanted.  Sometimes, no doubt, they do.  Perhaps even most of the time.  But sometimes -- particularly with baroque and earlier, including Bach -- they don't, or, more accurately, they become that group of scholars' opinion as to what the composer really meant.  Neither they nor anyone else has any way of knowing whether they are correct.

To take Bach as an example.  For some works -- the Well Tempered Clavier, or The Art of the Fugue, for examples, you are looking at an academic study, and it is possible to be pretty sure of what dear old Johann meant.  With the organ works, however -- all of them -- the man was a master improviser, and it is highly unlikely that he ever played them quite the same way twice (even when he wasn't borrowing from Cantata A for a fugue in some other organ piece).

So one can quite legitimately have differences of opinion as to which particular set of notes was really meant.

Also true of modern French organ music -- the whole crew; Widor, Langlais, Alain, Dupre, Franck, etc. -- they were improvisations before they were ever written down.

Take the pontificating of scholars with some caution.
Ian

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #5 on: October 02, 2016, 10:02:32 AM
Giving you (and English phrase) the very big benefit of the doubt, I list the link to my 3 year old historical  piano news video, which has just been viewed by over 6,800 individuals, worldwide.

Are you STILL plugging that into your posts Louis??? It's been almost 3 years for goodness sake. You've done it multiple times last month as well.

Please stop doing this as it makes you look desperate and needy for attention.

Offline tenk

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #6 on: October 02, 2016, 03:31:39 PM
Are you STILL plugging that into your posts Louis??? It's been almost 3 years for goodness sake. You've done it multiple times last month as well.

Please stop doing this as it makes you look desperate and needy for attention.

I'm convinced that Louis and pianoplayerstar are bots sent from hell to torment me/us on this forum.

To the OP: urtexts aren't "necessary" to be sure, but I aside from being as accurate as possible, the Henle books are also printed on high-quality paper, are easy to read, and fold any which way you like without having to stack books on them to hold.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #7 on: October 02, 2016, 10:29:19 PM
I'd like to add a bit to some of the above.  That is relating to the question of authenticity, or adherence to "what the composer really meant" -- sort of hinted at in avanchnzel's answer.

It is quite true that most urtext editions have been heavily researched and corroborated by looking at as many manuscripts as the publishers can find.  This does not mean, however, that they represent what the composer really wanted.  Sometimes, no doubt, they do.  Perhaps even most of the time.  But sometimes -- particularly with baroque and earlier, including Bach -- they don't, or, more accurately, they become that group of scholars' opinion as to what the composer really meant.  Neither they nor anyone else has any way of knowing whether they are correct.

To take Bach as an example.  For some works -- the Well Tempered Clavier, or The Art of the Fugue, for examples, you are looking at an academic study, and it is possible to be pretty sure of what dear old Johann meant.  With the organ works, however -- all of them -- the man was a master improviser, and it is highly unlikely that he ever played them quite the same way twice (even when he wasn't borrowing from Cantata A for a fugue in some other organ piece).

So one can quite legitimately have differences of opinion as to which particular set of notes was really meant.

Also true of modern French organ music -- the whole crew; Widor, Langlais, Alain, Dupre, Franck, etc. -- they were improvisations before they were ever written down.

Take the pontificating of scholars with some caution.
Extremely well put, the accuracy of your statements is to be highly complimented.  And, for those naysayers in the UK who disagree with my thesis of original performance, I state the following:

1)  The leading applied musicologist on this subject (in the world, much less the UK) is Dr. Clive Brown of the University of Leeds.  He stated in an interview (March of 2015) with radio station WQXR of New York city the following:  "All Classical Music is Being Played Wrong."

2)  As accurately stated in this particular post, he said that all musicians of the time commonly improvised and rarely played anything the same way twice (Mozart and Beethoven being the most well known examples).

3)  Guess who has completely endorsed the thesis of my video on several occasions.  Oh, my!

4)  Finally, the term Urtext was originally coined and espoused by Heinrich Schenker in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  His work was mostly concerned with the late Beethoven Sonatas, with which many performers were taking great liberties.

5)  Not only did they improvise (like Beethoven), they were also publishing printed versions of their performances, which in a word was:  wrong.

6)  However, for Schenker to haul out Beethoven's manuscripts and state that this is the way the composer (the great improviser) played them is total falsehood.  The man was totally deaf and had not performed in years.

7)  During his lifetime, Schenker had to teach out of his home because no one in any music conservatory would give him a job.  Why?  Because no one, and I mean no one played anything literally, according to the score.

Cool  Then, as accurately stated in his Memoir, Earl Wild reveals that directly after World War II Adele Marcus, Rossina Lhevinne, Claudio Arrau, Rubinstein, et al, resurrected this note perfect, attention to the score Urtext methodology.

9)  If it take us the rest of our lives, Clive Brown, Neal Peres Da Costa, Kenneth Hamilton and myself will let the rest of the world know how the composer/pianists who originally wrote this great music actually performed it!

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #8 on: October 03, 2016, 12:25:10 AM
Your original video was stating that we should be rolling large chords in Romantic music, and yet you still haven't show a single piece of evidence that Dr. Clive Brown has backed you upon that initial statement.

Your video is still just propaganda without any tangible proof. Your constant posting of the one and only video you seem to have is getting tedious and looks desperate. Please refrain from posting it again... otherwise you're going to start looking like those nuts on the highway with their one cardboard sign saying 'Aliens are coming'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe in going for Urtext editions as these are the closest editions that contain the actual notes and markings written by the composer... without being (apologise for the term) bastardised by an editor.

Offline tenk

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #9 on: October 03, 2016, 01:51:29 PM
9)  If it take us the rest of our lives, Clive Brown, Neal Peres Da Costa, Kenneth Hamilton and myself will let the rest of the world know how the composer/pianists who originally wrote this great music actually performed it!

The only thing you've done is prove over and over what a charlatan you are.

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: Is it important to get Urtext ?
Reply #10 on: October 03, 2016, 06:08:07 PM
To say nothing of the fact that what he's trying to prove is ultimately somewhat irrelevant; as artists, going strictly by exactly how Beethoven would play it is how you get the same performance as him. Not anything that's fresh or exciting.
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