Haydn sonatas and other masters

[irrational]

I have become extremely fond of Haydn sonatas. Enough to state that to me his sonatas are sometimes on par with Beethoven. Not disputing Beethoven as perhaps the ultimate master of the form in my opinion.

I am starting to learn Hob. XVI/23 and am also currently smitten with Hob. XVI/32. I don't have the technique to tackle it yet.
I was wondering if there are other gems of the era musically similar to the above 2 sonatas. I have not yet managed to get through all the Clementis but some are pretty close, like his Capriccio Op.47 no.2.

So any recommendations of the late classical era in sonatas that one might easily miss that is just great music? Not leaning towards romantic, but just fun, excellent music. Dussek perhaps? I have not listened to any of his sonatas yet.

[jeffok]

Well, I know you said "late classical", but you really shouldn't overlook CPE Bach. His influence on the second half of the 18th century was huge. Quite a number of pianists have now released discs devoted to his music including at least one big name - Pletnev. The ones I've listened to make me think that at least some of this music works as well or better on piano than harpsichord (or clavichord).

Also, if you don't know Haydn's Fantasia in C+ it's a great fun piece though pretty hard.

best wishes,
jeff ok

[visitor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Domingos_Bomtempo

love his music. seldom played. could say he wrote more than a 'little' for piano.
Op. 1 \ Piano Sonata No. 1 in F major
Op. 2 \ Piano Concerto No.1 in E flat major
Op. 3 \ Piano Concerto No.2 in F minor
Op. 4 \ Fandango & Variations for piano
Op. 5 \ Piano Sonata No. 2 in C minor
Op. 6 \ Introduction, 5 variations & fantasy on Paisiello's favorite air for piano
Op. 7 \ Piano Concerto No.3 in G minor
Op. 8 \ Capriccio & Variations on God save the King for piano in E flat major
Op. 9 No.1 \ Piano Sonata No. 3 in E flat major
Op. 9 No.2 \ Piano Sonata No. 4 in C major
Op. 10a \ Hymno lusitano (cantata)
Op. 10b \ La Virtù Trionfante (cantata)
Op. 11 \ Symphony No.1 in E flat major
Op. 12 \ Piano Concerto No.4 in D major
Op. 13 \ Piano Sonata No. 5 in C major
Op. 14 \ Fantasia for piano in C minor
Op. 15 No.1 \ Piano Sonata No. 6 in A flat major
Op. 15 No.2 \ Piano Sonata No. 7 in G minor
Op. 15 No.3 \ Variations for piano on a popular French song
Op. 16 \ Piano Quintet in E flat major
Op. 17 \ A paz da Europa (cantata)
Op. 18 No.1 \ Piano Sonata No. 8 in G major
Op. 18 No.2 \ Piano Sonata No. 9 in F minor
Op. 18 No.3 \ Piano Sonata No.10 in E flat major
Op. 19 \ 12 Studies for piano
Op. 20 \ Piano Sonata No.11 in E flat major
Op. 21 \ Variations for piano on a theme from Die Zauberflöte in G minor
Op. 22 \ Variations for piano on a theme from Alessandro in Efeso in B flat major
Variations for piano on a theme from La donna del Lago in E minor
Waltz for piano

[irrational]

Ah yes! CPE Bach!
I actually want to get hold of his works, but I have not done thorough research into interpretations and recordings yet. Pletnev is certainly a worthwhile candidate.

Bomtempo is certainly a new name. I will see what I can find, thanks.

I remembered I should also delve into Hummel's works a bit. I do not have much. Only some concerti and chamber music..

I suspect era wise I am looking around 1770 to 1790 most likely as before may not be quite developed as yet and after starts to lean more towards romanticism. But I am sure there may be composers ahead of their time and others more conservative.

[alatrousse]

AND! other masters.  AND.

This is  asimple word for person from any language to learn.  Please correct so I can answer.  if you mean something else make it clearer.  Apolgoies.

[irrational]

@alatrousse - Fixed for your peace of mind.
Would "an' " also have sufficed as being more laid back?

I had a chat with my teacher about C.P.E. Bach and she said she does not enjoy teaching his works to someone as they are difficult to understand and place. They do not belong to either baroque or classic periods.

[jeffok]

I had a chat with my teacher about C.P.E. Bach and she said she does not enjoy teaching his works to someone as they are difficult to understand and place. They do not belong to either baroque or classic periods.

I tried to walk away from this. Really I did. I logged out of the website and shut down my browser....but I had to come back.

Obviously, I don't know your teacher. She may be a great teacher and/or a wonderful person. But I just don't understand this sort of attitude from people calling themselves "teachers". I've also run across (but never had) teachers who would only teach music that they had worked on themselves. This just doesn't make sense to me. Students should absolutely be encouraged in every way possible to explore! The comments your teacher made are quite correct but that doesn't mean CPE's music isn't still good music. I believe that teachers working with students at this level have an obligation to learn along with their students.

Anyway, just my $0.25 worth. I'll get off my high-horse now.

I hope you find the droids repertoire you're looking for.

best wishes,
jeff ok

[dogperson]

I tried to walk away from this. Really I did. I logged out of the website and shut down my browser....but I had to come back.

Obviously, I don't know your teacher. She may be a great teacher and/or a wonderful person. But I just don't understand this sort of attitude from people calling themselves "teachers". I've also run across (but never had) teachers who would only teach music that they had worked on themselves. This just doesn't make sense to me. Students should absolutely be encouraged in every way possible to explore! The comments your teacher made are quite correct but that doesn't mean CPE's music isn't still good music. I believe that teachers working with students at this level have an obligation to learn along with their students.

Anyway, just my $0.25 worth. I'll get off my high-horse now.

I hope you find the droids repertoire you're looking for.

best wishes,
jeff ok

Hi Jeff
I totally agree with your post about teachers teaching what they do not play.   It is an important teaching skill, IMHO.  In fact, my teacher told me a few weeks ago that a common misconception of students is that their teacher has personally played all repertoire--- but in fact, many have not been personally played, at all.  What is important is that the instructor is able to provide the necessary instruction-- and that should be irrespective of the composer. 

[irrational]

Hmm. Your post is a touch off-topic.

I feel some reply is warranted.
Firstly thanks for the well-wishes. I enjoy discovering and learning. Last night was an eye opener with said C.P.E. His fantasies are brilliant, but I don't think I will tackle his sonatas. But I can't say until I have listened to many more. It has introduced me to Rameau who will be next on the list.

Secondly.
I understand your rant, but it is very misplaced though. She is really very good and by word of mouth, is also teaching other teachers that admit their own limitations in teaching, so that the older skills and knowledge she has gained over decades of teaching do not get lost. She is of course a teacher of many top students young and old.

To clarify and attempt to soothe your mind.
Its unfortunately the case here that most students do not have the interest or skill to get to grips with harder works. It is a real problem in this country.
She implied that she does not like to teach it, because however hard she may try. the students (mostly younger children forced to learn by parents) do not have the interest or talent to get to grips to perform this work properly. So teaching to play the notes is one thing, but delving deeper into understanding the work requires dedication and a will to learn. She does not believe in teaching half-heartedly. If you can not, in her opinion, play a work successfully with your skill she will suggest other works, but she will not refuse to teach a work if you want to stick with it and do her best by applying techniques to adapt your playing to the work's difficulties.

She is not the only one with this issue. I also know other teachers lamenting the fact that modern students do not have the attention or dedication or interest try and understand the music. I am sure you will also agree that no teacher can make a living teaching only the super talented. It is more than sad that the average student does not have the right schooling or future outlook to master the instrument or the music.

She has no problem trying to teach difficult works to anyone that wants to try, but one has to be realistic regarding skill and expectation. I have myself never shied away from and indeed seek out the harder works to play because they teach more and are more interesting. I do, however, have a good idea of my limitations so I don't attempt works I do not feel a connection with that I feel I don't have the skill for.

Your rant is a valid one and echoes her own complaints regarding many so-called "teachers" that have limited skill and no real love of the music or earnest drive to teach correctly. So right with you there.
She never said C.P.E. wasn't good music, merely that it is difficult get students to understand how to perform it correctly as it is rather unique.

Lastly, further to her defence, she knows the music, technique and interpretations extremely well from pre-bach to scriabin. Although she doesn't like modern classical, she still understands and knows it well as any good teacher should, to be able to teach all levels of students.

[jeffok]

Fair enough. You provided an excellent explanation and it's clear that your teacher has thought about the subject a great deal in arriving at her decisions. I don't necessarily agree with them but if we all agreed about everything having to do with music, what would there be to talk about?

I hope that as rants go, mine seemed fairly minor. I don't indulge in them often and am certainly not out to pick a fight with you, your teacher or anyone else on the forum.

Thanks for your very polite response. Long live civil discourse!

And I wish you great fun with Rameau when you get around to him. I mentioned this in response to another thread, but if you haven't heard the recordings Marcelle Meyer made of (all) his keyboard music in the 1950s, they're well worth hearing. Several can be found on YouTube.

best wishes,
jeff ok

[mjames]

What about Hummel? However considering your teacher's opinions it might also be a bad idea, considering he was also a transitional composer. Joseph WOOF Wölfl also has some interesting piano sonatas, and yes you should totally look out for some Dussek.

Out of the three I consider Wolfl to be the more musically imaginative one, whereas the other two while limited in "musical intuition" (don't get me wrong, they wrote lots of good music), they had an incredible sense of what to do with the piano, to the point of pioneering new styles of approaching piano writing and playing. If you're a hardcore piano enthusiast, I implore you to look into their music and you'll realize just how large a role they played in shaping early romantic music despite being relatively obscure in our day and age.

[irrational]

Hummel is certainly on my target list as well. My teacher mentioned him favourably.
I quite enjoy his music, although I just do not have solo works. Just the Concertos with Stephen Hough. I know he has recorded the sonatas on Hyperion and assume they are excellent.

I have the Dussek concerti by Andreas Staier on fortepiano, but as with Hummel, not really the solo works.
Wolfl I have not heard of, thank you, I will add him to my list.

I have come to realise that there are "lost" composers that composed well but for some reason or another fell into obscurity, not necessarily because their work is bad or unimaginative, but because of changes in taste. The Bach family being a good example. And many users on this forum have found amazing works that are off the beaten track.

This is why the search. When I searched for the good Haydn sonatas, XVI/32 was just about never mentioned, yet its now one of my favourites. So I realise that depending on the common perceptions of what is good is not necessarily correct and likely somewhat biased.

[marijn1999]

Another one to look into is Leopold Kozeluch. He wrote a lot, but I mean, a lot of music. Only a some of his music can be found on IMSLP. Most of his minor key piano sonatas have a large grave introduction before the fast sonata-allegro section, which are mostly very tumultuous and are quite pre-romantic. His piano concertos on the other hand are very light and have an Mozartean feel to them. Definitely check him out.

Also, not sure if he was mentioned already, but look into Clementi. Lots of his late piano sonatas are very original and fresh music. Most of them are quite difficult too  . Last one I can think of right now is Johann Baptist Cramer. His music leans well into the romantic era.

BW,
marijn

[visitor]

when looking at some of the greatest sonatas Haydn wrote and who they were dedicated to..


ie https://www.monicajakucleverett.com/notes-von-martinez.html

do dig deeper, it is most certainly worth it...


When surveying this lot of ocomposers circle back a and not skip Austrian Mariane von Martinez or just Mariane Martinez.  Approx 200 piano works, less than n 100 survive that we know of. And probavly the only few woman composers to really note from this era.

And she was less important than Maria Reynolds, read up on her and her music
 There are ties to Johann Hiller (who would later teach a young Carl Maria von Weber, and if you like Hummel, I know i do, listen to his 1st piano sonata for one of the great pre 1825 sonatas in the lit).

[irrational]

@mjames
Thank you so much for the Wolfl! Wow. Why is he not more known? Very delightful works and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. They seem interesting and virtuosic beyond the mere pretty.

@marjin1999
I adore Clementi sonatas. Like Haydn they tend to be happy and exude joy in music.
Kozeluch I know about as being another famous composer/pianist of the era, but I still need to get to him. Thanks for the reminder.
Cramer is new to me as well. I will have a listen.

@visitor
As expected, an interesting injection! Martinez is certainly worth exploring more. I never considered looking into the dedicatees of the great composers. Excellent idea, thank you.