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Topic: Sempre legato?! REALLY?! (Read 8488 times)

mjames

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Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

on: November 02, 2016, 05:33:54 PM

See the scribble?
You see the 4-5 cross?
At allegro?
Yeah, I don't think so.

EDIT: NVM, Chopin's bad a$$

sempre legato.jpg (40.49 kB, 525x158 - viewed 760 times.)

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chopinlover01

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 05:43:00 PM

It's possible to do. That said, it's a bad idea and using 3 there would probably be a better idea.

Not every fingering in this etude is holy, contrary to what old Freddy might have said. The point is to encourage flexibility and ease of playing in fingers 3, 4, and 5, not to destroy your hand trying to follow this archaic piece of piano literature

Are you intending on playing it? If so, good luck!

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mjames

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 05:50:44 PM

Quote from: chopinlover01 on November 02, 2016, 05:43:00 PM

It's possible to do. That said, it's a bad idea and using 3 there would probably be a better idea.

Not every fingering in this etude is holy, contrary to what old Freddy might have said. The point is to encourage flexibility and ease of playing in fingers 3, 4, and 5, not to destroy your hand trying to follow this archaic piece of piano literature

Are you intending on playing it? If so, good luck!

Yeah that's pretty much the same advice I got IRL. Either ignore the legato for that specific part or change the fingering. There's a lot of awkward stuff in op. 10 no.2 but that spot is just bonkers, I don't see how it's possible.

And yeah sort of, it was assigned to me a week and half ago but notice how it isn't in my signature. I think I'll fail horribly lol.

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piulento

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 07:59:55 PM

Don't expect anything about this etude to make sense... This is just the editor's way of saying - 'yeah, don't even bother... This piece is too hard anyway'

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chopinlover01

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 08:03:42 PM

Good luck dude. For some (myself included) it isn't the most horrible etude possible, but it's still pretty tough, so good luck my friend!

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mjames

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 08:16:18 PM

Quote from: piulento on November 02, 2016, 07:59:55 PM

Don't expect anything about this etude to make sense... This is just the editor's way of saying - 'yeah, don't even bother... This piece is too hard anyway'

I borrowed the Mikuli edition from the library however I double checked with a few first editions and the urtext and the fingerings are entirely Chopin's, not Mikuli's.

I call it awkward because well it is, but once you get used to a few parts they start to make sense physically, my hand totally agrees with it so far, even during the "wait what, you want me to do what?" moments. However this is the one spot that I can't seem wrap my head around if I follow the score 100% (playing finger legato). I tried all sorts of things, asked my teacher and even she was flabbergasted and called that particular part idiotic (whereas the rest of the piece is fine). She said she changed the fingering (similar to Chopinlover's suggestion) when she used to play it. I just want more opinions on this particular part, and how doable/realistic it is to follow it precisely as Chopin tells us to.

Can someone link a video of someone playing it exactly like this? Curious if its out there..

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anamnesis

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 02:08:31 AM

Quote from: mjames on November 02, 2016, 08:16:18 PM

I borrowed the Mikuli edition from the library however I double checked with a few first editions and the urtext and the fingerings are entirely Chopin's, not Mikuli's.

I call it awkward because well it is, but once you get used to a few parts they start to make sense physically, my hand totally agrees with it so far, even during the "wait what, you want me to do what?" moments. However this is the one spot that I can't seem wrap my head around if I follow the score 100% (playing finger legato). I tried all sorts of things, asked my teacher and even she was flabbergasted and called that particular part idiotic (whereas the rest of the piece is fine). She said she changed the fingering (similar to Chopinlover's suggestion) when she used to play it. I just want more opinions on this particular part, and how doable/realistic it is to follow it precisely as Chopin tells us to.

Can someone link a video of someone playing it exactly like this? Curious if its out there..

Legato isn't simply about holding the keys with the fingers one right after the other. It's about the timing of the keys and hammers to produce the illusion of continuity. You can play with connected fingers and still not sound legato as well as sound legato without playing completely connected with just the fingers at all times. Open up a piano and do a glissando and watch how the "eveness" of the hammers. Finger connection does not at all guarantee that you can get this smoothness when played in time.

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mjames

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 02:36:25 AM

I should have been a little more specific, but yeah that was already suggested to me. By the "ignore legato" I mentioned on my previous posts I was specifically talking about strict finger legato, I already know how to fake or create the illusion of legato or whatever you call it. If I didn't I wouldn't be learning this..

So I'm guessing from your post that you don't suggest finger legato on that particular cross as well?

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adodd81802

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Re: Sempre legato?! REALLY?!

Reply #8 on: November 03, 2016, 09:33:37 AM

I imagine if your hands were faced to the right enough, this would be possible? Maybe not comfortable by any means.

Also probably easier with longer fingers / small palms, then short fingers / big palms (seems like Chopins physiology)

I've taken a look at this piece, I can play around 80 tempo (Nothing honestly, but just thought i'd check it out)

Actually the bits I struggle on most is hitting C/E/A wherever it arrives on the way down, for example bar 2 at the end Bb with the 3rd then 4th on the A whilst hitting C/E below. Yeah my fingers are too short for this flexibility I think. I can only reach a 9th as it is.

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mjames

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RE: Nevermind, Chopin's a genius

Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 02:54:41 AM

I agree with you Addod, but after a little bit more practice (using the fake legato thing) idk what happened but all of a sudden my fifth finger can connect to it pretty nicely. Like I mean, finger legato type of connecting. I don't even know what happened, I don't know what I did, it doesn't feel awkward anymore and it actually feels quite natural. I don't think I'll have a hard time playing that at tempo now.

Damn, I don't know why I ever doubted my main boy's genius. He wasn't so nuts after all!

Now, I'm going to go cry about the middle section.

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adodd81802

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Re: RE: Nevermind, Chopin's a genius

Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 09:22:28 AM

Quote from: mjames on November 10, 2016, 02:54:41 AM

I agree with you Addod, but after a little bit more practice (using the fake legato thing) idk what happened but all of a sudden my fifth finger can connect to it pretty nicely. Like I mean, finger legato type of connecting. I don't even know what happened, I don't know what I did, it doesn't feel awkward anymore and it actually feels quite natural. I don't think I'll have a hard time playing that at tempo now.

Damn, I don't know why I ever doubted my main boy's genius. He wasn't so nuts after all!
Now, I'm going to go cry about the middle section.

Lol yes even genius is an understatement. There are other master composers in their own right, but only with Chopin could I hear a random composition (of his) for the first time and know it was his. He made the piano his singing pregnant dog. **EDIT** Hilariously, I did not type pregnant dog, however it converted the word B-I-TCH into that. Well played PStreet.

That aside, good luck with the piece, I will return to it, I think I play too flat fingered so maybe this was my initial struggles. I see some pianists play this more with the tips of their fingers in a walking style. Probably increases the distance you can place between the fingers.

I completed Op 10-5. I may post one day, if ever I could get a perfect performance in one take... (yeah right)

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