We normally take such a crude decision after a reasonable amount of time has elapsed with no noticeable progress seen whatsoever. We always have to remember that people have many talents and maybe by insisting in trying to develop the wrong artistic skill we might be preventing that student from developing his true potential.
I am so glad that I am not reading these answers as a relatively new student.I'd love to read something where there is an attitude of responsibility and also reassurance for students. Say, maybe, that teachers do not expect amazing performances or "talent" (well, maybe with the exception of the first responder); that mistakes are normal, and it is the teacher's task to find the cause of mistakes and also prevent mistakes, and the student's responsibility to follow through. How about that as a start?Both responses leave me uncomfortable.
I sack a student when the interaction with them brings me little joy and starts to affect time not spent with them. Another attributing factor would be if the lessons reach a point where I simply cannot help them, because they do not help themselves.So far in my entire tenure of piano teaching spanning two decades, this has happened only four times:1, when two years passed and they had learned nothing.2, when the student said no when I asked to hear their piece.3, when the student did not speak to me for 18 months (lessons start to termination).4, when the student questioned my ability to play and teach.I do not terminate lessons willingly, however there has to be a line drawn at some point. I am in a position where I do not need to seek students, and so do not have to tolerate the abuse of the less grateful.Don't be naive; everybody can, not everybody will. You can choose when to teach and when not to.
Really Keypeg? The first response was just a canned, generic response which would make any of us uncomfortable--- especially if you are a piano student that needs to develop skills toward a degree. But vaniii's should be very reassuring to a new student: Out of teaching for 20 years, only 4 students have been dropped, and all for more than legitimate reasons and a great deal of patience prior to making that decision.
Would you really keep a student that would not talk for 18 months?
what the ffffff. Juan!
Hi, I'm new here so I don't know if it's appropriate to ask this here but I wanted to ask teachers, so here I am. How do you decide when to drop a student? What makes you no longer want to teach them or makes you no longer want to dedicate a spot in your limited studio space to them?
I must say that I was thinking mostly of the first response, which made me uncomfortable right from the moment of spamming the forum. But what bothered me about both is that they talked only about results or effects. - a student has learned nothing over two years. If the student has not put in any effort over that period of time. If, however, there is a problem, then I might pass that student on to a colleague with a different approach who might be able to help.- when a student says no to being asked to hear a piece. Why is he saying no? Is he afraid of criticism? Is he shy? Has he been told bad things about his playing by other people, maybe even family or friends?- questioning the ability to teach. If a student actually says "You are a terrible teacher." yes, maybe. If a teacher questions what is being taught, of results - Well, this is a tricky one. Because there are times when a thing doesn't work, and many students are scared to say anything, for fear of appearing to be "questioning".If what I am teaching depends on talking, then this would be a problem. But piano is about playing, and if a student did what he was told, then I might keep the student. I'd want to know why he is not talking. I once knew a youngster who had gone through trauma, and it took him almost a year before he uttered a single word - his teacher was delighted as though Christmas had come early. The last thing I'd want to do is to erode the confidence even more by shutting the door on such a child.What bothered me the most about the response of the first one was that it was about results by the student, put on the student's "talent" rather than the teacher's teaching (at all). The reasons I usually see have to do with a student's level of effort, rather than how well he does.
Not being a teacher myself, I would say it is appropriate to drop students when a teacher no longer wants to teach.
@VaniiiYour detailed information about your 4 students you dropped is quite interesting-- but it is a shame that you felt like you needed to write this level of detail to defend a brief summary in your original email. There is always underlying information in any decision that should be assumed: the statement alone that the student did not speak for 18 months should have been enough. Although piano is not completely verbal, there must be verbal exchange for the lessons to have been effective. To endure for 18 months was, indeed, heroic. Thanks for your clarification but it was not needed by most of us that saw the implied patience in your initial response.
Apologies KeyPeg, but can you agree that your response would be a tad presumptuous and perhaps even a little arrogant. Your post insinuates that you know and could do better without actually ever meeting them or interacting with them. Perhaps you could, in which case kudos to you.I cannot go into the details of these students as it would not be professional to divulge sensitive information regarding the student’s personal information, but I can at least give you an overview without revealing said personal information.Student 1Took lessons for two years. They would arrive at the session with lots of words and bravado making statements (to quote): “I want to be the best pianist ever”, and “I want to take my grade X before the end of the year”, and “I want to play like [X other student]”. I would compile a course of study to make these goals achievable providing they practise and do what I asked in the lesson, at home. They did not; I made the decision to stop lessons when a relatively simple study caused them trouble because they could not identify middle C on the piano or the page, after two years. This happened at the end of tenure after two months of no practise. Not to mention three failed performances; each time they would continue with said bravado without actually doing the work required: “I want to play in X concert”. The problem was that they wanted to succeed, but did not want to put any effort in. Focus here was what the student wanted rather than what they needed. They loved potato chips but refused to eat mashed potato; they cannot see the wood from the tress, that is they are essentially the same thing.Student 2A serial non-practiser; they did not want to practise anything I set and only wanted to play what they wanted to play. I indulged them; however, after a series of lessons where they did nothing I asked them to, the interaction was terminated when they simply refused to play in the lesson. No amount of cajoling, persuasion or reasoning would change their mind. If a student refuses to participate in the lesson, refuses to rehearse at home and exhibits a rude attitude, how is teacher supposed to help them? In short, this person’s attitude doomed them to none-starting. Analogically speaking: "I want to play football, but I am not prepared to run, walk, touch the ball or enter the pitch"; what is left? Simply stay at home.Student 3This student transferred to me from another teacher. In the first lesson, they refused to speak to me. I explained to the parent that “this was a silent protest because they did not want to change teacher”. They assured me that they are just a tad shy and will soon open up. They never did, it was later revealed from the parent of another student that I was correct; they simply did not liked me for the reason I stated above, what’s worst they tried to convince the other student to not receive lessons with me. In this time, this particular student (the selective mute) learned all major scales with all major and minor arpeggios, and could read Grade 1 pieces at sight. They were ready to take their Grade 1; unfortunately, I lost patience with the arrangement and could not muster the will or energy to continue teaching a selective mute. I am sure if they want piano lesson, they will find a suitable teacher, I am not the only teacher in the area.Student 4This student was a PhD in a scientific field. Every session was met with a question to my ability to perform and teach. They were not interested in scales, sight-reading or any technical methods that would help assimilate the repertoire they wanted to play ‘the good stuff’; this good stuff being cannon repertoire pieces that even advanced amateurs would find challenging let alone a beginner. One said piece was to learn Chopin’s revolutionary etude, in the first six months of lessons … as a complete beginner. I managed to talk them down from this notion, and started with something more manageable. However, they would still question my ability to teach them. This interaction was terminated when I was discussing tonal-quality and out of frustration they simply punched the keyboard of their brand-new 5-foot grand piano with a closed fist; my distaste was that this was not a second-hand instrument, but in fact a new instrument costing in the tens of thousands. I stopped lessons after that as I could not tolerate them any longer. This student believed they were above the basic tasks I set even though they could not complete them; they were unwilling to do anything. Did I mention that they were a PhD; they told me every lesson. “I am a PhD”, to which I would reply: “and I am hungry, let’s try again”.---As stated, I am not driven by money and so do not accumulate students for financial gain. My only interest is helping my students learn how to play the piano, and do so well. I choose to drop students who are in my opinion unteachable; as I say to them, I am not the only piano teacher that exists, if they dislike my approach, method or manner, find someone else.I feel no guilt or remorse for this.
Student 3This student transferred to me from another teacher. In the first lesson, they refused to speak to me. I explained to the parent that “this was a silent protest because they did not want to change teacher”.
I assure you, they said nothing. I am trained in none verbal communication which allowed me to use facial cues to recognise thought and expression. This was a learning experience that I now use in all lessons.
Here is the thing about the question:If you look up other posts by the OP, you will find that the person asking is a student. He had few if any opportunities to be taught until now, and finally has that opportunity. It is normal for an older student in this situation to be afraid he isn't good enough, talented enough, isn't playing well enough for the teacher, and the huge fear that he will be dropped. I have had this conversation with quite a few adult students privately. The question is asked in this spirit. And then among the "answers" we get such gems as:- if there is failure due to lack of talent (the new person who advertised a lot recently)- if there is little or no progress- if the student doesn't talkPut yourself in the shoes of a student who fears he may not be showing enough progress, that he may not have the needed talent, and who might be scared to talk in lessons. Get it?No, no, no - that is not why teachers drop students. It is when the student feels superior to what he is being asked to do, has a bad arrogant attitude, does not want to practice, wants to do things his own way along ways that don't work. As far as talent is concerned, I have heard more than one music teacher say that he would prefer an average student with diligence, than a talent student with arrogance and laziness.In regards to "little progress". First, a student may not think he is progressing or playing well, and thus be down on himself, while a teacher may be seeing progress in areas she finds important. Secondly, if the student comes in with a mixed background and holes from self-teaching or having been previously poorly taught, then there may be struggles in assigned work. In that case it is up to the teacher to address those problems. If you simply say "He plays grade 6 pieces so he must be grade 6." then you might miss teaching fundamental things that this student never got. In this case it is also important for the student to let the teacher know what he has not learned. All of this works together with progress.
I support the right of any teacher to teach whoever they want for whatever reason.However I find the level of resentment towards some of these students a bit troubling. It appears they did not appreciate you enough. In the case of a silent student the immediate assumption of the reason, and the immediate blame of the student, is not the direction I would have gone. When you have a student with a handicap, you have choices. You can find a way to work around it (and improve your skills in the process) or you can move them on to somebody who has those skills - that's true for any handicap. A child cannot remain electively mute for 18 months unless the teacher is reinforcing it. I suspect this child picked up your nonverbals faster than you picked up his/hers. That was a heroic child, to suffer for 18 months.
This child would freely talk to people around me, but would ignore any prompting given by me. It was selective; they were a very bright young person. I simply chose to teach them regardless of any difficulties in the session; I saw it as a learning experience. Alas, I relented when I could not take it further.
I find that completely incomprehensible (and I've spent a number of years working with difficult children.)I think you have totally misread the situation.A child stayed mad for 18 months? That just doesn't happen. Ever. Not possible. Teaching requires making a connection to the student. You had 18 months to do that, and never succeeded? I suspect this child remained mystified for 18 months as to why you didn't like him. A child can have a condition that makes talking in some circumstances difficult or impossible. But if that were true you wouldn't be able to blame him for being willful or malicious, would you? At least you must have asked some colleagues for advice on how to reach this child?
Having talked to my teacher and one of my academic advisors, this now seems like a silly concern.
This student does not define me, they are one student in as previously mentioned two decades worth of teaching piano; I have never encounter anything like it either.
I'm another one, though an engineer now in a previous career I did a masters in Clinical Psychology and worked many years in psychiatric hospitals.
No, I don't think the child was mad for 18 months, but not talking to the teacher was somehow gratifying to him, so he decided to continue it. Maybe he was playing a game of his own, which the teacher could not understand or address.
1, when two years passed and they had learned nothing.
My first teacher quit me due to this, replace two years with 6 months.Now I see some of my previous teacher's dilemma about students. I hate it when teachers prefer the "talented" ones, then badmouthing the less talented ones then dropping them. FML.
I hate it when teachers prefer the "talented" ones, then badmouthing the less talented ones then dropping them. FML.
I must reply directly to this.Talent is a myth; it is also used as an excuse to give people who do not work hard as an excuse as to why they are unsuccessful in their endeavors. A good teacher should know this as it comes down to whether or not a student is rehearsing efficiently.
likely it might simply be because they could not help you for whatever their reasons.
Talent can also be used as an excuse by people who call themselves teachers who teach ineffectively. Anyone who doesn't succeed through their methods "lack talent" because the method can't be faulty. (I know of one teacher who would talk about her or his students in that manner).Agree - but then the student should not be dropped. Another teacher who does have the ability to help in whatever area should be found (imho).
then badmouthing the less talented ones then dropping them.
Knowing WHY you did not progress as fast as his other students would be very useful to you as you your learning. Length of practice and efficiency of practice are naturally going to be the first things to look at.
In my entire career of teaching (20+ years) I have never dropped a student. There are those who don't improve for a long period of time and I don't care because each person has their own personal reasons why it is difficult to improve. Some reasons are none of my business but have been revealed after a while and from my experience even though 9/10 of these cases end up quitting anyway you do get through to that one and it can change their perspective on their own life. I actually like teaching students who are unmotivated because I enjoy piano music always, if they don't enjoy it at least I do ahah! It is also a challenge for me to excite them to learn piano. It is a good lesson for some kids to learn that we often have to do things in life we don't necessarily want to do, even if they don't enjoy piano they can learn discipline through it and that has further reaching effects than just learning music. I guess the only reason why I would drop a student is if they avoid paying me my fees! But I'll break their thumbs if they do that.... lol
keypeg does make a good point.My advice to analyze why you didn't progress, looking at your own actions first, is irrelevant if you ended up with a bad teacher. And they do exist. So it may not always easy to assess where the problems lie, with you or him. It can even be both. I had a conversation with one of the more famous brass teachers and asked him if he thought older adults could "succeed." He said he thought they could but they usually don't, because they usually won't do what he tells them.
I also read the reiyza's post and there were was a clue:We know nothing about Reiyza or the teacher or the other students.
Knowing WHY you did not progress as fast as his other students would be very useful to you as you your learning. Length of practice and efficiency of practice are naturally going to be the first things to look at. Age can contribute as well, in a couple of ways. Older students tend to be slower, though there are exceptions; they also can be resistant to the teacher's methods. The latter can get you fired even if you are making progress.
If you are given poor or ineffective instructions, then that hard work and lengthy practice can actually entrench problems and make things worse. Obviously if a student spent 10 minutes/week practising, then he will know that is the problem. But such a student also would not think his failure is due to lack of talent, because clearly he hasn't practised.
Yes, you may have a 'bad teacher', or you may decide 'he dropped me because I am not talented' as a defense mechanism that stops you from doing introspection and taking personal responsibility. Indeed, it is easy and comforting for all of us to jump to a conclusion, and not assume partial or full responsibility, whether we are talking about piano or other things in life. introspection can help uncover if it is you, him or both. IMHO, a step that should not be skipped, even as you move to another teacher.
Not actually, you have been present in my earlier threads providing excellent advice, I thank you for that. Though, I understand that situations cannot be described by mere replies in forums.Long story short.1st Teacher Dropped me : unknown reasons, ....2nd Teacher Considering to Drop me : I dropped him first, he treated me as a conservatory student, and expects too highly of my abilities, gives pieces waaaaayyy too advanced.Speaking as a student here, I did not notice where did I go wrong. And none of them told me what was wrong. I come to our session, play czerny etudes/assigned pieces, telling me to do this and that but they seldom demonstrate how to. Then after the session, assigns me 3 czerny etudes and 2 hannon pages to be presented next week, almost note perfect and at tempo or at least near it. I tried my best but sometimes I figure, I couldn't keep up with what they expect of me. Maybe that led to the dismay of my teachers?..........This is exactly what my problem is... Both of them told me to practice this and that. And no clear instruction was given, demonstrated a little concept like "rotation" and "rhythms", but never did they explain why it was needed in the first place.
I have been looking at the various adverts, and this is the first concrete thing I've seen. The response makes me uncomfortable.1. If there is no progress, then the first thing that is done in good teaching, is to see the cause of that lack of progress. I'd also want to know what is meant by "progress". This in itself is an important question.2. For anyone in the field of teaching to juxtapose the idea of "talent", that to me is a red flag.3. Before answering, did you look at the asker's previous posts in order to get a feel for who is asking and why? You are responding to a student who is in a particular circumstance. The answer I see here could potentially do harm or discourage.
I want to emphasise the fact that I only had to do it once in my entire teaching career, I would never take this lightly.
In all cases except for the recalcitrant student who doesn't want to study piano, or the arrogant student who thinks he is too good to need to practice, getting at the root of the problem is the first step.
How do you decide when to drop a student? (Read 7613 times)
